Yes, Nagrom...happens more than you think.

What I see you wrestling with is a life-long belief...that if such and such was done to you, you would immediately divorce.

We don't know until we experience it ourselves...yet that past belief lingers like a chiding mother...waving it's finger at us...and this corrodes us...know you are choosing to forgive yourself for believing you would do one thing and now, choosing to not do that thing, but another.

We're adults. The child in us thought we could protect ourselves with that belief...I'm outta here if he/she does this or this! No way would I tolerate that! The child inside us believed this would spare us pain...and the adult knows the pain continues, cannot be stopped on an action...so we choose differently when we are facing it in our OWN lives...

And yes, the 180 from who our spouses were to us and who they appear to be in an A is astonishing...hence, the alien abduction theory is eerily true, along with the fog...

What I learned is the generous, loving, compassionate person remains inside...covered over by resentment they made as they believed they were giving and giving and not getting...or not getting enough, or in the way they wanted it...The Giver in us, out of control, builds up the resentment, which, when enough (and this is us doing this to us), brings out the equal and opposite Taker full throttle...which is the entitlement...

The core ingredient, though, is lack of respect. Believing we earn love, not that is our choice; believing we will be safe because of our earning, our actions, which is impossible; and living from our feelings instead of knowing our beliefs.

Lack of respect for selves, knowing we are separate and equal to everyone...and for others. Hence, the having the A right in your face, so to speak, without allowing YOUR emotions to stop her. Her Taker says she's sacrificed enough for what wasn't hers at all...YOUR emotions.

I think this is why owning your own stuff in Plan A is imperative...you are fully responsible for only what is yours...and by stating yours stuff as yours, not her making you, then her Taker may wake up to no sacrifice necessary and relax, stop urging, defending and protecting...from fear.

Doesn't mean the Giver steps right back up...however, the entitlement drops way down as the justifications cannot be found.

Have you considered explaining what is happening to your youngest daughter (YD)? I ask because kids know...and they know a lot more than they tell...and they feel a lot more responsible than you can imagine...and they know they are being withheld from but not why...

Have you read "Between Parent and Child" yet?

I know you're an old hand at parenting...new circumstances can call for new information and education, though. Part of the good you can get out of the worst time of your life...

Stay present...just for today...keep sharing your thoughts, focused more on you and your choice of goal than on what you thought you would have done, been...

LA

P.S. And on the books...I thought you had ordered some...did those include "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend?

Its comforting in a way that many others go through this ongoing adultery aspect. Probably helps a bit.

Yes, I do think that without this site I would have thrown in the towel weeks ago. I would have still have been puzzled as to what was going on. Would not have realised there was an affair till later. And would not have been aware of a reasonable chance of reconciliation.

That's quite true ....the generous, loving and compassionate person is still within my WW....I'm sure I felt it this morning. But overidden by this addiction for the OM.

Ordered and read.."Surviving an Affair"...and "Not Just Friends". Useful books, especially the second one.

Have not seen.."Between Parent and Child".

We hav'nt discussed telling YD yet. One problem might be...I don't recognise we are separated..and WW does'nt seem to accept she is having an Affair!.

I found this site comforting and grounding, as well.

Same reasons.

I'm very grateful for it being here...and the people posting.

I suggested telling YD BECAUSE you don't recognize the separation (there isn't one...you're living together)...and that her mother is spending overnights with a man who isn't her husband...well, explaining that (her part) would necessitate some reality, don't you think?

Trust your daughter is confused, and most are, with adults presenting childish behavior in really big bodies...so owning our stuff to our kids matters.

Another way to demonstrate two people can believe drastically different things...separation and affairs...and agree to disagree for a time...your YD can make up her own mind...hiding it from her, without hiding anything, really, is just confusing, painful, and part of a fantasy.

IMO.

Between Parent and Child was first published in 1972, I believe. It's in its umpteenth reprint. That good. Solid today as then. Not a fad or theory. Works. I swear.

It was where I got my respectful base during my WH's affair...Jaye Mathisen here recommended it, I think...separate and equal...what is only ours, as humans.

It would help with your daughter, yourself and your life. I promise.

LA

Thanks LA,
Will have to decide what to tell YD. Will have to try and agree something with WW.

On another aspect...although I want to run Plan A as long as possible.

I had suggested in conversation with WW yesterday, when I was a bit low after her night out and suggested we should sell our property soon, that perhaps she should consider moving in with OM, at least for a while.
She said he wouldn't want that and neither would she. And added that she couldn't move to a flat as she could not afford it.
Which brings me to consider.....if we do really separate, how do I make her leave?. I just havn't thought this one out yet but need to know.
I do not see why I should leave the house.

Don't leave the house...which is why you can't see a good reason to...there isn't one!

I don't know the laws in the UK...if you give your WW the choice to either stop her affair or move out, can you move her stuff to the lawn and change the locks when she goes out for an overnighter?

Shows her choice and your boundary.

I hope someone else will post to you on this...because I'm of two minds, having had two experiences...one, I was like your WW and had my A from beginning to end in front of my BH...horrible. He didn't move out and I wouldn't. He didn't put my stuff out in the courtyard, either. He didn't expose...he didn't do a Plan A...

When I discovered his A, I said Move Out. He didn't. I called him at work the next day and said, MOVE OUT and he came home and did.

Everyone is different. I dunno.

You could move her clothes and jewelry in suitcases and place them beside his car at the pub. Then again, I'm the one who thought of soaping my WH's work windows (a restaurant) with the words, "Homewrecker Works Here" and thought of standing at the drive-through with a sign saying, "Adulterers On Board." I had good friends talk me out of it.

And I would have done it. A couple who were great friends of ours decided to sell their house and move back to their native state...I was so sick of loss (my abandonment issues) that I made up funny picket signs and yes, the day of their open house, I took my BH and son and a lawn chair, set up on their side walk, and picketed.

My son videotaped it.

"Friends Don't Let Friends Move To Texas."

Stuff like that.

I believe in going to the mat to show love...now I have a memory I cherish...when I don't have them.

It's a trade.

Listen and repeat to WW "I hear you saying you're choosing to have an affair with a man who doesn't want you to move in, who you do not want to live with, and you can't afford to live elsewhere, is that correct?"

"Yes."

"You cannot live in our marital home while you are shagging someone else. Move out."

There's no argument...she's giving you babble, reverse it with reality.

Her reasons are hers...yours are yours. You're not in the fog.

You really can't make her...but you can demonstrate how you are willing to enforce your boundary.

LA

Thanks LA. Will have to look into further, but your last paragraphs make sense.

You're welcome, Nagrom...It's late here and I'm not sure I'm making any sense. Nice to know you understood me.

Thank you.

How are you doing with that reporting your feelings stuff?

LA

LA,
I like your use of the word "shagging". I suspect that's all it is . Although WW is obviously infatuated with, and addicted to, him...I expect that is really all he may be after!....and may move on to a new conquest in due course.

In fact a neighbour of mine..female..said she could not see how WW could have been so drawn to him and it is another notch on his bedpost!.

Have had some more chats with WW.
I said to her yesterday...after she returned from a night out...did she realise how much it is hurting me and tearing my heart apart...She said yes...but its only 2 or 3 times a week. She does understand but can't help it.

I keep very occupied with horses, house repairs..etc...but each day is difficult and I think of her ALL the time.

Its weird to think WW was a kind, thoughtful and loving wife and mother a few months back. Someone I could confide in and trust. And we were very intimate and unhinhibited for 27 years!...suddenly ceased in April.
Although there are moments of affection ..some close hugs and kisses..she seems almost a stranger much of the time.
But we remain friendly...no arguing..I buy her flowers. I want to get closer all the of the time ...but have to restrain myself

WW appears to be seeing OM ABOUT 3 TIMES A WEEK. This being in his pub bar from about 8-00 pm, then with him all night....Her fantasy world which could go on indefinitely?.

I suggested she might move in with OM....plenty of room at the hostelry. But she said he would not want that. Has a 19 year old daughter...who knows what her father gets up to, and regards him as a "pratt"!...and problems of his own.
I suggested if he invited WW to move in she might "jump at it"?. She did not think so, but not sure.
I feel that she does not live with him this fantasy relationship might go on forever!.

( I have been breaking my posts as have lost some longer ones!).

We both agreed this morning to take life day by day. But I said I have my own separate plans for later next year if the present situation continues indefinitely.

I said you've probably noticed I avoid discussing "our" future too much, but would like to clarify this...

There are several options. Either your Affair drags on indefinitely, or OM and you live together permantly...or the Affair dies.
WW thinks the latter is a possibility and agrees we may then try and recover our marriage. In this respect, when talking earlier she had used the word "compromise". So I picked up on this now and said I did not like that word. She agreed and agreed with me that we need to fully discuss and agree her needs and my needs.
I said we cannot have a "compromise" marriage...it must be all or nothing...but may take time....she agreed.

I think there is no doubt she has love for me. She is also very well aware she is hurting me...but can't help it. She is also "impressed" with the way I am dealing with the situation.

LA,
Just something more...
In an earlier posting you stated, if I understand you correctly.."Your WW loves you truly and deeply"...
I assume this comment was based on what I had previously written?.

Such comments are important in helping me survive this mess.
Would you still feel the same comment to be accurate after reading my later postings?.....I hope so.

I was chatting to my eldest, 20, daughter this morning and she said..."...then why does'nt she come back to you now?...
I replied that its not that simple. She is addicted to OM and has to work it out of her system...or let the Affair die..

Not indefinitely, but certainly long enough for permanent damage to be done to your M and your self-esteem. Your WW is in the perfect "cake-eating" situation: she gets to boink her OM as much as she wants, and her poor H accepts the situation.

And when this one finishes, what happens when another OM comes along? Will you be so accomodating?

Why are you allowing her to do this to you and your child, Nagrom?

Nagrom,

I don't mind you breaking your posts up...you could type your reply in a Word document and then cut and paste it into the reply section, if your posts are being lost...

I had computer problems last night, so I couldn't reply.

I say she loves you truly, because you are her reality...for over half of her life...you are real. This is the truth I reached--why people aren't replaceable...we don't fall in love and leave...fall in love and leave...there's no growth in it; only a drug. You are the partner of her life...

OM is a fantasy...

In a marriage which follows Harley's four rules...she would not choose to do this...because it harms you, her and the marriage. I don't believe we have those marriages prior to A's...we didn't know that resentment builds entitlement...which feeds us like a drug with toxic permissions.

You're learning that now...she will hurt you with full knowledge, three times a week, not from not loving you, but because of the way you both have loved...

The way she's loved herself and you...from the outside inward...not from the inside outward. I don't believe love protects us from anything, when we believe it comes in to fill us up, instead of filling us up and flowing outward.

I believe Plan A changes that dynamic, if you choose to change your beliefs. Plan A isn't being nice, buying flowers (especially if that is what you did pre-A); it is becoming authentic, honest, true and loving by choice. This goes both ways...

And it includes boundaries as well as standards...

Have you really looked at your WW's ENs? Your own LBs? LBs were my critical issues. What I did to others and to myself...without respect, knowing my H was separate and equal, then I relied on earning his love enough to protect me from him...and it didn't--because earned love means earned punishment (withdrawal of love); it is performance based, which is also response based. There is no authenticity in it; I don't believe there can be.

I say this because you have a belief that if someone loves you, they won't hurt you...not like this...and that belief comes from your earliest time on this earth...not from all the adult experience you've had.

Let me ask you for your truth...committing yourself to six months for Plan A...when you have felt as if you couldn't go one more day...I didn't read where you told her your truth..."I want to believe you will stop your adultery. Some days I do, knowing it is a fantasy and not real. Other days, I do not believe you will and I want you out of here. I don't know what I will decide."

These what-ifs in your mind, which consume you (and I remember for me), are DJ's...they are. There's no respect or reality in them...you don't know why OM does what he does nor your WW...you really can't...reality is your choices, your knowledge...what you want to focus on...which I believe is you, while you're in Plan A.

A's have a way of wiping us off the map...when we lived in our spouse's eyes, and their eyes turn away from us. Find your center, Nagrom...find out you are whole, worthy, valuable--made that way--without a word spoken or an action taken. Find in yourself the ways you live, the choices you make...are they in reaction to others or from a code you wrote down, which resonated within you.

Cake-eating is what your WW is doing...and it won't help destroy the A...I would choose to tell her to leave, not ask. You're half the marriage. Be respectful of her power and choices...know inside you this is a fog, like a drug, for compassion...do not act from it. If you have treated her as helpless before...been accepting of her crossing your boundaries because of your love, without being honest to tell her of her violations, then you are feeding yourself on her, not respecting her...your payoff has been in inequality, and I believe that would cease, right now, to your benefit, your growth, if you chose it.

Flip everything around...pre-A, were you someone she could confide in and trust? Were you honest and open? Whatever you crave from her now, flip it around...examine it...this is what I mean by focusing on you...not her.

Being close takes two people...being authentic takes one. What if you being close to her is you wanting to be close to yourself...know yourself directly, not through her?

I respect your choices...I know they are yours. This was my way through it...and I lasted three months of contact...and know that slicing, "See you later while I go off with OW" in front of me. Not three times a week, not the same way.

There are others, right now, going through what you are...watch the threads and learn what you can...listen inside yourself for truth, not DJs, 'k? You can do this.

Please consider that Plan B does follow Plan A to save your marriage. It isn't rejection or divorce.

In your corner,

LA

MIM,
Thanks for comments. At the moment I feel I should try and stick with Plan A for as long as possible, though aware WW is having her cake and eating it.

I have over the last few days asked her to consider moving out. But she can't afford it...and won't go to OM.
If I got tough and insisted no doubt she would find a room with a friend.
But this would not prevent her contact with OM.

I see Plan B as inevitable but not yet.

If it happened again with another OM I am sure I would disown WW.

Nagrom,

I asked my DH why he moved out when I demanded he did...he said he didn't have anywhere else to go...and I brought up a relative...I asked him if me giving him an alternative made the difference...we were leaving for work, so this was off the cuff for my contemplative DH...he said, yes, he believed so.

Her moving out isn't about breaking up the A...the intent was to be living in truth...she is choosing her addiction over her family...that is the truth...living at a friend's house is part of bringing reality of her choice...her choice...you are not making her break up, have an A, or enabling her to get to her drugs...she's choosing this as her personal solution...

See how intent matters? Talk to me about control...how you feel having no control over another human being, even one who's been with you for 27 years?

LA

LA,
Your last message does make sense..thanks.

I need to reread your previous message later to absorb it carefully.

LA,
Your previous message really does make sense. It is just a matter of how long I now keep Plan A going.

I would also have to look further into protecting my finances.
Thanks for your time and effort!

What if it wasn't the length of Plan A (and six months is a great goal)...but the intensity?

Privilege to be read by you, Nagrom...can you see how I learn, also? Even a year and a half later, I was hesitant (for all of four seconds) to ask DH that question...felt the old fear of him feeling attacked or judged by me...and I held that fear and asked, anyway.

Respecting others changes everything.

That my post makes sense to you is a gift...I don't believe I communicate well...my intent is pure...my execution of that intent is what I question!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA,
you andMIM havecertainly fired me up for Plan B. WW's continuing adultery is difficult to take...she is off out again tonight.
MIM has me concerned that the continuing adultery could be very damaging to my M....which could well be so.
And I can see the sense in what you are advising.
But I do feel I should work on Plan A a bit longer before moving WW out.....however difficult it is for me. A tumbler of whisky can make one sleep better!.
I feel WW and I have more useful discussion before I cast her out.