I can't encourage you to take an approach that seems so wrong to me. It seems to me that the lighthouse is flashing its bright beam, you are close enough to see the spray on the rocks, but you seem to be content to keep the ship on its course rather than take immediate evasive action, apparently because you're afraid of the discomfort a sharp turn might cause.



She's going to avoid making the choice of whether or not to do so as long as there's cake to be eaten, Nagrom. And who suffers until then? Hint - it won't be her.

I wish Bob Pure was reading this thread. He can give you a link to another story he knows of a BH who provided similar appeasement to his WW and let the A continue without taking definite action to save his M. The BH eventually committed suicide.

Nagrom,

I'm checking in...wondering what you thought of MIM's post...his level of concern for you?

What books are you reading?

LA

LA,
Thanks for keeping in touch. I am taking dd12, dd21, partner and grandson away for a long weekend.
My family...excluding WW, are a great help in keeping me sane!.
WW's Affair is still as strong as ever..except there has been some apparent wavering recently with WW not even her WW self. I, and she, are aware there is another woman in the wings. She does not appear too concerned yet.

Am keeping on this course for the time being.

I did ask WW the other day whether she was happy doing what she is doing...she replied she was some of the time, but exciting!.
Her sister told me the other day that WW told her I am "happy" and content with the present situation. WW does come out with some "foggy" comments.

I am grateful for MIM's genuine concern and advice. I think the Affair will only end if OM ends it.

Oh yes, I have been reading...and reread.... "Surviving an Affair", "His Needs, Her Needs" and numerous internet articles.

My WW and I had a marvellous sex life in our early days and I have always enjoyed it with her. And several times a week, for 25 plus years up to it all ending in April this year!.
But I am very concerned that my age has been showing in the last year and this may not help in a possible reconciliation.
The way this Affair is going suggests she is getting much more SF from this creep than from me.
But I have yet to discover at what level SF is on her list of EN priorties.
I have avoided any talk of this sort for some while.

How about "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend?

I do understand your fear about your age showing...this is your fear. You have 27 years with this woman as your wife, your partner...and all I can glean is that SF to you means acceptance...and now, you're unacceptable.

And you're not.

I hold to my belief that SF is an EN...not a physical satisfaction...you are all you are, Nagrom...that hasn't changed. It would be interesting to look at what you find unacceptable in yourself now that you didn't before.

Have you pursued IC for you?

LA

LA...please remind me ..what is an "IC". My list excludes this abbreviation!.

Oh my acronymic fingers...individual counseling. MC is marital counseling...IC...well, you get it.

Sorry 'bout that.

LA

I had a thought...why not hire a housekeeper to do what WW does?

And did I forget (which is likely) about IC...did you not want it for a specific reason?

LA

LA,
There are several points you made I am giving thought to. Meanwhile, I would like to say that in my "meditations" and if feeling at a low point, I often read through your posts for their wise and helpful content.
But I am in no hurry to change my present course.
I feel my self respect and integrity is still intact by my treating WW with patience and understanding even if causing me stress.


A question...My close family and relations including WW's parents are taking me out for a meal on my 68 birthday soon. I know several, including myself, who will feel awkward if WW is invited. I decided she shouldn't come, especially as she was texting OM continually at my son 18's family birthday dinner a few weeks ago and thus annoying people. And she was very impatient to be off to see OM!!.
I believe her parents will be more relaxed if she is not there.
Do you think I am right in excluding her...after all family is now a low priorty for her...OM and his Ship Inn always comes first?.

Hello again,

You are absolutely correct. This birthday party thrown by your family and WW's parents is about love, respect and kindness toward you. Why would you wish to ruin for them by allowing your WW to come and make everyone feel uncomfortable? This is about your night and the love of people who care and have respect for you. This clearly excludes your wife. Her behavior at your son's birthday dinner was absolutely unbelievable.

I have generally refrained from writing on this post because I feel what you are doing is absolutely the wrong thing by condoning this behavior. The message you give to your WW is that there is no type of humiliation and disrespect that you are not willing to endure so she can be happy, screw her boyfriend and maintain the lifestyle she has become accustomed to all at your expense. Your deserve so much more my friend that it truly pains me to read your posts. Nevertheless I respect that it is your decision how you wish to live your life and the type of messages you wish to give to your family and friends. I wish you a happy birthday and a happier life which is all within your power if you truly choose it to be.

Bryanp,
Thankyou for that...I will ensure no-one invites her.

I can understand you not generally writing on this post as it must be like beating your head against a brick wall!.

Your comments and advice have always been gratefully received and carefully read.

How was your bday dinner?

Thinking of you...

LA

LA,
Thank you for "keeping an eye om me".
My special birthday dinner is this Friday. I will let you know how it goes.
I am still determined to"ride the storm" until the end of the year then reassess. It is not easy but I have several friends who feel I am doing the right thing.
On the other hand there relations...mostly of my WW...who think I should throw her out.

Good to know you have a balance of both going on, Nagrom.

And Happy Birthday, early...I rarely get to say that.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Make sure to encourage all relatives to voice their opinions to WW...respects their opinions as theirs and their relationship directly with WW, separate from you.

I look forward to the update after your Friday night fanfare...and I do hope for celebratory fanfare, sir.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LA

Actually, WW is not invited to my birthday dinner and I doubt whether she will be a topic of conversation.

I suppose at present I am in a sort of Plan A except the Affair appears to be still omgoing and intense with no intention by WW of stopping it. So she is at the Ship Inn about 30% of the time and at " home" the rest.
I and others who know, hate, despise and detest Slimy are certain the Affair will not last...but for how long is anyone's guess.
Exposre had no obvious effect
So intend to endure this till the end of the year when more drastic action may be necessary.
But I hope that if she does consider trying a reconciliation one day I hope she will remember I have been treating her with understanding and affection and is someone she can rely on and trust. Or just show her contempt!! I do wonder though if she can become infatuated with this slimy, creepy and dishonest person...she could then be anbody's!
...to be cont/d

I have no doubt that into early this year she loved me, family and house. But this suddenly changed and family takes second place to Slimy and his inn.
This is well summed up in SAA..."An Affair is a very powerful addiction. The craving to be with the lovercan be so intense that objective reality doesn't have much of a chance. The fact that a spouse and children may be permanently injured by this cruel indulgence doesn't seem to matter. All that matters is spending more time with the lover.".
After WW told me in April she didn't love me any more and no longer desired me I tried to find out the reason why.
In due course she became fed up and annoyed with questions and said she was unable to explain. I recall she said there was something missing and the main cause being the terrible 5 years with difficult daughter.
I feel now is not the time to discuss our relationship further but try and discuss our EN's before a Plan B or separation.
I suspect that her EN's may be..CONSERVATION, ADMIRATION, AFFECTION, DOMESTIC SUPPORT and DOMESTIC SUPPORT, in that order.
But...SEXUAL FULFILLMENT may have been high on the list, and especially since the Affair.
This could make reconciliation more difficult if her current sexual relationship is much better than her marital one...?

Nagrom...

My focus is on you...I accept your choices. What I have the hardest time accepting why you aren't learning crucial lessons looking you in the face...

"But I hope that if she does consider trying a reconciliation one day I hope she will remember I have been treating her with understanding and affection and is someone she can rely on and trust."

What does it matter what she thinks, feels or believes when she comes out of the fog about YOU...her actions and choices have been all about her...not YOU.

Can you please learn that you ARE an understanding, loyal, affectionate, trustworthy and reliable human being...whether she EVER does or not?

YOU didn't make her fall of out of love or choose an affair...

"After WW told me in April she didn't love me any more and no longer desired me I tried to find out the reason why."

Why? What she felt didn't matter near as much as choosing to destroy a family by following her feelings...

You can make millions of love deposits and others can block them. You can meet all ENs and the other person may still not feel loved...that's in them, not you. Your responsibility is to know YOU chose to love, do loving acts and reap the immediate reward of living a loving life...not dependent on her reaction.

My concern falls deeply in our human belief system...which is a two way street...if you believe you can make her have an affair, forsake her family...then you also believe she can make you divorce her, tolerate, or reconcile with her...and I don't believe in either of those realities.

I know I can't MAKE you see that.

LOL

And on your EN list for her...what you suspect, please know that ENs change...we tend to put at the top of our list whatever it is we are lacking most at that time...and as you fill others, they drop down on the most important list...LOL...something I found out from living it. Didn't see that in the literature.

So, SF may not have made her top 5 pre-A...because you were meeting it...when doing ENs for others, to the best of our ability, we are being assumptive...I'm cautioning you to be carefully assumptive.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

From your last line...I see you have chosen to not progress at all on your great fear...to know it is your own, and you are choosing to believe a harsh and dishonest belief, which can cut, worry and intimidate you...whatever your payoff is...I hope it is big enough to be worth that pain, Nagrom.

I won't pursue your fears...you have them. I've contributed all I can about your part...not just deciding to stay and Plan A, but how to do a killer authentic Plan A...

What are your terms for after the A ends, and NC begins, and then to get through withdrawal for what...four months? Usually half of the affair time or something? I've forgotten...maybe longer? My WH's time was about same length as the affair...maybe a couple weeks shy of 8 weeks...

How are your children's relationships with their mother? How is their pain and confusion, anger and frustration?

Have you prepped for Plan B for first of next year? I know valuations and assessments were involved...don't know how long those take...

I believe Plan A is being a reality bearer...and you are prohibited from meeting your real W's ENs because she's not there...WW is there...and her ENs are as foggy as she is...so listen and repeat, reverse babble (conversation), admiration for your real wife, none for your WS...you can do this by recalling all the things you admired that your wife did over the years...along with characteristics in her personality you miss, too..."I remember admiring for how dedicated a mother you were, WW." Solemn, sincere and wistful.

Affection? Domestic Support? You're meeting those very well, even by your presence...

Do not listen to WW's twisted truth and try to explore or question it. It won't make sense. It's her truth, not THE truth.

Just a reminder.

LA

LA,
Iam continually amazed at the time and effort you put into helping others!. You certainly deserve a medal. I am pleased you accept my choices as I know the action you would prefer me to take.
As you probably realise I am not rushing things at present.

A few points re your posting...
I had thought that one positive aspect of a Plan A was to act in such a way that WW would remember the good things about youwhen "out of the fog"....You say this doesn't matter?.
Although it would appear that Affairs occur even in the best marriages, it is likely something was missing in ours to make her vulnerable to an Affair and able to be taken advantage of by a predator. This makes no excuse for an Affair ...but we could be equally to blame for a problem.

You also indicate the uncertainty of how an Affair might end.

I do still love W/WW and she knows it. We remain friendly and communicative. I show some affection ...but no persuasion. I have told her that what she does with her life is her choice. She knows I am disgusted with her behaviour and she feels (not shows!) guilt.

I realised that EN's can change. I would have previously have put SF at the top of the list but I know I was too demanding and had started to putting my mind to c orrect this before the Affair came to light....too late.
But in conversation since I have told WW that SF is no longer a priorty...I value her love and affection more.

Too soon to think too much about NC.I can forsee difficulties here.
The children think mother is stupid and talks a lot of nonsense. They also make rude comments re her singing along to all the pop songs. Son 18 speaks his mind...ie. when she asked him what he thought of her attire and the long black boots when going out yesterday, he said.."Where's the red light mum"?!.
DD12 has lost much respect for her and is becoming more argumentative with shouting matches.
Property values..etc..are being reassessed.

I understand the last 2 paras of your posting...they are as I thought.

Nagrom,

I hope when you are through this crisis time in your life, you'll understand how giving back, sharing what it was like, with experienced compassion, is a big payoff to me...I believe MB saved my marriage, with my permission...kinda.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I had thought that one positive aspect of a Plan A was to act in such a way that WW would remember the good things about youwhen "out of the fog"....You say this doesn't matter?."

I ask for your premise, your intent...Plan A is getting what you didn't get before...eliminating LBs, identifying and meeting ENs...loving by choice...

If you are only doing Plan A to get your WS to see what they are missing...to endear them for after the fog...then how authentic are you being? Won't you go back to LBing, not meeting ENs? If you make your premise for changing your beliefs because that is who you really are...the effect may be the same, look the same from the outside, but would you ever go back to not being who you really are, once you save your marriage?

This is what I see later, in recovery, a lot. In my eyes, BS's who did the Plan for the goal to save their marriage, got NC and through withdrawal, begin to experience terrible anger and resentment...and I believe, because they added to their own betrayal...due to their intent to get the WS back, not to change what they now really saw in themselves...acting as they really are...like you...all you really are is enough, is attractive and marvelous...without permissions to LB (because those are childish permissions)...feeling they manuevered, like a doormat, instead of living authentically as they really are.

If you are looking to get a certain result, if that is how you choose your actions, then you are living manipulatively. If you choose from your code...your standards...then you are living your life consciously aware, holding to not LBing, honoring your marriage, and meeting ENs, then you must let go the results...because you've chosen to live in reality, not fantasy. It would be fantasy to think you can make your spouse love you...in doing so, you negate the gift of love...you made them give it; as if they didn't have a choice.

Don't cut yourself off at the knees, is what I'm asking. You give yourself permission to make OM real...to compare yourself to him when you're incomparable. You tear down your blameless Self when you do this. It's destructive. Please choose to not compare...reality to fantasy is apples and cotton candy...isn't it?

Something was vulnerable in your WIFE...I can tell you from experience...affairs are more about the WS than about the marriage, the BS or the OP...choosing fantasy to meet real needs is an imbalance and it goes way back...this permission to be justified in wrecking so much...it's about her, in her.

I promise.

You can't touch it, fix it or cure it. All you can do is acknowledge her choices, reality, every step of the way. And mind your own backyard...see where maybe you participated in fantasy (I cause, I control, I cure) and really see how it was, the best you can, and your choices.

Changing you changes everything. That's my belief.

Why not rid your life of blame entirely, Nagrom? Consider that humans be and do...they are responsible for themselves...what is within their control...their thoughts, actions, feelings, beliefs, perspectives and perceptions. They are limited and powerful in their choices...and their choices are inherent. To blame your stuff on others, or believe you were made, entrapped, etc., is part of the wayward state of mind...you made me hurt you...

This is a difficult concept to grasp and ennact...removing blame...once you really see human responsibility, separate from what you've been taught...blame kinda evaporates. Is OM equally responsible for all the pain and fear your family is experiencing...yes. Are you? Not at all.

You may feel better if you shared blame...I know I did. If you can break it, you can fix it...that's a belief way inside of me...from childhood. How about you? If you're powerful enough to break it, you are powerful enough to fix it...if you were powerless, blameless...you coudn't have broken it...then ohmygosh...you have no power to fix...that's terribly fearful, isn't it?

Your power is in being half the marriage...equal parts...and your choice to honor the marriage, even when you do not feel like honoring WW...this is your power...there is no real power in taking blame (and we have to take it, like offense, because no one can MAKE be blamed or offended)...ony a fantasy power...a leftover...not of your adult experience.

Stuff happens. People choose and then they choose better when they learn better.

Up to you what you believe, which affects your intent...which determines how you experience what you choose.

Did you know that you cannot persuade unless the other person allows?

Our influence is truly limited by those we want to influence...we don't have that power...however, even our presence, without a word or action, is influential.

Would you consider pre-A that SF would have been #1 because you wanted full connection with your W? You can use your ENs to signal you what you might be experiencing emotionally...a subtle disconnect...distance from intimacy...and our ENs jump up and down in balance with these beliefs...even if they are under our own radar...not fully aware. I think ENs help us become aware of all our choices.

If you would consider this, then what you told WW would be very true for you...being intimate only during SF is not true intimacy...is it possible you want to connect on all levels...emotionally, physically, mentally and spiritually? Experience true mutuality instead of limiting intimate connection to what you knew best?

About your kids...can you talk with them about adults giving permission for their inner children to run their lives? All the choices your WW is making is from the child within her...which may be why they experience feeling older, wiser and more mature than their own mother, their role model...she looks the same on the outside to you all...and she's not acting her adult self...very confusing, aggravating and fear-inspiring.

Did you experience this growing up...where your folks say that we'd better keep our opinions to ourselves because they EARNED our respect and we better darn well give it?

Could be your WW feels she earned, banked, respect over the last 25 years...and she wants to draw on that account...not by maintaining that respect through present actions, but using up chits from past choices she didn't feel appreciated for...this would be a great example to your kids of how distorting and dangerous resentment is...

DD12 is showing signs of wrestling with understanding control...arguing to change reality, not believing she's heard because WW isn't doing what DD wants her to...upping the volume to be heard...would be a good time to talk about what humans can and cannot control...sharing what you learn about self-care, not being the cause (and DD may well believe she is a cause, looking for blame so she can cure, too).

Anyway...more stuff for your brain to tinker with...focus on...rather than on her...you...doesn't stop the pain, isn't avoidance of reality...centers you in reality, growing from it.

If you see Plan A as you living authentically, as the choice to live fully, whether your marriage continues or not...then that is what you'll have. If you see it as a way to get WW out of the fog, only you choosing to do things to make her see what she doesn't, then if she chooses not to...will you have failed? What will you have then? (Looks the same on the outside, very different on your inside, do you think?)

LA

Wanted to hear how your Bday went...to know how you're doing, what you're feeling...all that stuff.

LA