Thanks LA for posting.
I will give your message more thought as, though it is short, I think it may give me more to think about before replying more fully.
But I agree that I should also go 100% dark on OM also.(and there may also be another OM now anyway!!). But he is often mentioned in conversation in the inn/pub I frequent nearby by people who detest and hate him....very few don't. I do not try and find info on him.
Luckily I never see him even though hi inn is only 5 minutes walk away.

I was about to send a message re DD13...now a teenager at last.
Will write it in next post.

LA, I may write more when I have considered the contents of your posting more....but...

DD13 loves me and her home. She has almost taken over her mum's role in the way she helps on the domestic side and rearranging romm layouts..etc. She is generally happy, has many friends and is popular and loved by most.
But she is obviously affected by being abondoned by her mum. This shows in her regular reluctance to go to school so her attendance record is only about 70%. However I was surprised that her recent school report was quite good.

Her feeling sick due to stress on schooldays has abated ...for now now...a good sign.
The other day, after truanting, she asked for a chat and said she was depressed..often. Depressed because her mum never contacts her and DD13 always has to initiate contact.She said mum told her that she (WW) is not allowed to telephone the house and that is the reason for not contacting her.
RUBBISH!..and DD22 agrees with me. WW can easily make arrangements via DD22 at any time.
DD13's visits to WW's flat are always short..half hour to an hour. Her mum could easily take on outings now and again!.
Her school have at last arranged for DD13 to have counselling once a week. Last week was the first and DD13 told me all about and how much she liked the counsellor and is looking forward to the next mtg.
It has been very difficult but I am becoming more optomistic.
DD13 has asked her mum to collect her from school by car sometimes. WW has done this 2 or 3 times. The other day she even offered to collect her from one of her friend's houses as WW knew I had been "chauffering" DD13 a lot that day.

Still a slow plot..!!...but to be expected?.
Even though WW lives only 5 minutes walk away I have only seen her once since Dec 25 2006.
Most of my concern and thoughts are now with DD13 who is obviously affected by her mum (WW) having deserted her.
She often contacts WW and makes short visits to her flat and is given occasional car lifts to and from friends houses and school.
She tells me she is often depressed mum never contacts her.
DD13 has been truanting from school more and spending much time with her pony instead... going for long hacks in the forest. Am hoping the school problems will be soon sorted. DD13 loves me and living in this house and has many friends.

Plan B continuing...do not try to find out what WW is up to. I consider Plan B started properly in April 2007...to theoretically end circa November 2008.

I am unsure How I now feel about WW. I loved W so much and would have done anything for her.
I do not think about W / WW quite so much now. But there many "triggers".

I think I would find it upsetting to see her.
A bit of a rambling note to keep in touch with MB's...as not sure where I am at the moment!. But trying to get on with my own life..with the children.
I am not looking for anyone else but feel it could happen.

The parents of one of DD13's friends called in yesterday to collect their daughter. These parents have become good friends and their daughter is a good influence on DD13.

WW is never discussed but the mother did mention she had met WW twice when WW had collected DD13 from their house and said WW did not seem to her to be happy.

By the way LA, I have not noticed you on any threads recently? My computer has been down yet again recently, but when it is connected I do read many of the other threads that seem relevant to my own situation.

Nagrom,

I've had computer troubles, as well. And I haven't been up late at night on MB as I once was...you're right on that we've been missing each other.

Hard for me to respond, too, to your posts right now. My heart is hurting greatly for DD13. I'm really reactive. See, I lost my mother when I was 8. I cannot get my mind around my mother abandoning me, remaining alive, from 12 to 13. I have no words, no comprehension. That pain just sears...and a whole lot of coping skills (distractions, which can lead to addictions) come into play. Reasonably so.

As a father, you want to ease, fill, lessen DD13's stuff...you may want to be double your self...to fill that void. Please know that you cannot. No one can. Why parenting takes two people. Not your failing at all.

What you can give her is great guidance at a living skill...how to speak out, not act out. Which is why I urged family counseling for her...and I respect your thoughts on counseling. I saw this as a parallel need, though...that you may have the same desire for learning this living skill as your DD does.

Within abandonment, there are huge feelings of rejection...and anger...lots of pain. You know this first hand, as well. What happens when rejection goes up, acceptance plummets. What happened for me was the formation of a life-long battle with justification (from the combination) and self-deception.

Not unreasonable when experiencing pain to seek pleasure (distraction) harder. As a woman, I remember that my focus for rebellion, for defining my own self (13 through, uh, 30?) was pushing against my mother. How can your DD push against what isn't there, reaching for her? The whole imbalance and angst of our teen years is difficult enough, and here, your WW has compounded, up-ended it for your DD13.

Complicating the already complex.

You can see truancy as an acting out...an expression of autonomy and asserting choice. I can also see part of it as an act of self-destruction masked by independent behaviors...a choice to cut at herself while thinking she's cutting at someone else.

And I hear in your sharing (thank you) that you may have a lot of the same experiences DD is having...she has her own triggers...and seeing WW upsets her, as well. Sharing your stuff with DD may well be another way to support her...as an act of love. Not to cure her sadness or your own...to express, state, not demonstrate.

Good to know you don't choose to think about WW as much...Plan B is about your focus on your here and now...on you and reality. You won't have the loving feelings coming because you are no longer choosing acts of love in the many ways you did before. That's reasonable. Doesn't affect your choice to love, however. Just the resulting feelings. Plan B is a huge act of love...the one act...so it protects your feelings, though they may not be signaling you. Trust yourself. You have them and can have them again, if you choose, and your WW breaks her fog.

Please consider more counseling for DD13...something weekly or more. You're her father...and she loves you like the world. Accept you cannot make this right...not in your power, and exercise your choices to acknowledge, share, validate and understand. Consider whole family counseling, as well, because then your DD13 can hear she's not alone...she may believe that her siblings aren't affected because of their age. This is ageless...parents are to children. And children love their parents without boundaries...I believe it is an unbreakable bond...even when it's corrosive, it survives.

How are you doing with your own self-care? Reading any books? (That's my way, doesn't have to be yours.) Thinking of IC for you, yet? I know your thoughts against it...your concerns. I'm wondering if re-considering them would be of aid...bringing them into your here and now...because what you are experiencing is most likely the biggest trauma of your life...and it keeps going, day by day. Why would you not seek support, as you would for your DD? You're worth it. And what you choose to do for you affects what your DD may choose, or not choose, to do for herself.

Thank you for being here, Nagrom. And good call on seeing your WW twist her choice into your fault. You know better. Great response to that for your daughter, "I know your mother is choosing to not connect with you. Hurts like crazy in me, also. I don't know why she's choosing...just that she's choosing. She's really missing out on who you are today and I believe I'm blessed beyond measure to connect with you."

LA

LA,
Its great to hear from you and I will read your post carefully again.
I will mention now that the school authorities (with whom I have kept in constant contact) recommended a County Council Welfare Officer/counsellor. I spoke to him. He seemed very helpful, friendly and understanding. A meeting was arranged...he was to meet us both at our house. DD13 was also looking forward to it..(I think mainly as she saw this might lead to the Home Tutoring she desires..!!).. However, the Gloucestershire floods prevented the mtg and I will arrange another asap. So this essential aspect is in hand and I hope it will help.
Thanks again for your response.

LA,
As usual your post is full of wisdom. You are so right about parenting requiring two people. DD22 helps me to some extent.
I find it difficult to get DD13 to open up fully to me....just a little. I have some useful feedback from a teacher friend she chats to at the stables.
Counselling has been arranged..postponed by the floods...but a session will be held tomorrow.

Your comments re seeking pleasure, distraction and rebellion I am sure I see in DD13's actions. Though generally happy and seemingly enjoying life she also exhibits the self destructive behaviour you refer to. For example truanting and reacting against all forms of authority, at school and at the stables...etc.
.."A choice to cut at herself while thinking she is cutting at someone else."
I feel I have to be careful in "sharing stuff" with DD13 as I do not know what she chats to WW about.

I am unsure how DD13's siblings are affected. I think DS19 has taken it badly but is reluctant to talk about the situation. And he has had his own problems with the girl he had become close to having cheated on him!. He is basically content with living here and getting on with his own life. He gets very annoyed at DD13's truanting behaviour.

My own self care...I am very busy anyway. Looking after the house..repairs..housework..cooking..washing...and the horses.
I have read many of the recommended books and still read relevant posts on MB. But I feel I should not dwell on this too much now...and I have learnt so much...I think!.

An extra note...

I have still only spoken to WW face to face once since Christmas..and for a few seconds only...when DD13 had her minor riding accident.
A few months ago I saw 50 year old WW walking away in the distance looking as slim as she did when a 22 year old.
Very recently I saw her again walking away in the distance but looking distinctly heavier.
A few days later, DD22 said to me.."Have you seen mum recently?. she's put back on the weight she lost when the Affair started"!.

(((Nagrom!)))

Great to see you again...thank you for checking back in and responding to my post.

Ask to know and let go the outcome...

You have your own relationship with your kids which are only half of...I know that was a little shocking for me to realize because I believed I consumed them, and through the teenaged-years, that I was the ONLLY one in the darn relationship.

LOL

I'm asking you to listen as your half of your relationship with your daughter. I'm asking you to listen and repeat...do NOT try to fix her feelings, her thoughts, her stuff...to really hear and understand...and confirm or clarify your understanding. Yes, I'm asking something huge.

As for her choice to go truant...if I remember correctly, you're retired...and I respect you have a lot to do on a daily basis...and still, I'm gonna ask you if you would find this an acceptable boundary enforcement...

When you DD13 skips school, you catch her at it that morning...that day...and when you do, the very next school day, you go with her to all her classes...sitting beside her. That's a reasonable logical consequence to her choice.

And it usually cures truancy very quickly.

You know how children learn to prioritize education? By seeing their parents act with education being a priority.

Not talk...act.

You show how important your DD13 is when you attend all her horse competitions, don't you? Why not her classes? She's still really important to you...isn't she?

You can't make her attend school...illegal for you to drag her kicking and screaming...to bind her to a school bus...or to shackle her legs, isn't it? (Hey, I had all boys and these weren't too far out for me to consider!)

Share your limits with DD13...and your power...state your boundary enforcements and enforce them, progressively.

You certainly can choose to accompany, to verify...give her the way back to earn your trust over time...to attend school and make it her own priority.

How much non-hobby time do you spend together each day, sharing?

When you speak freely of your stuff...when you share with your kids...then you are saying that it is permissible for them to share theirs...that two-way street. Doesn't make them share...permits...acknowledges...and your own bravery will give you a respect-filled life...I promise.

Thank you for reading, learning, staying busy, acting your love (all of those were acts of love...the looking afters) and being present in the right now. You know, I didn't see where you leaped into the future in your last post...how 'bout that!!

How much time do you spend each day with DS19? (Wow, look each of them is getting older...new numbers!)

For my sharing--I'm having a spot of difficulty (I just leaped over the Atlantic, didn't I?) with DS21 today...who is feeling the full consequences for his actions and I'm having a hard time separating him from myself...because I did stuff like that at his age...involves him having not paid an out-of-state traffic violation for a year, and then finally paying it off after they revoked his drivers license...and the other state taking (most likely a year to my way of thinking) to reinstate and clear his license...means that they yanked his license in our state after a traffic stop. Now, still his consequences for his delay, his choice to speed, heck, his choice to drive an old but really sport red car...and so, as a consequence, he has no way to have any idea to present to the airlines for his flight on Friday...no way to get any acceptable photo identification in time...which means he won't be going on this three-week trip he's planned and which is paid for.

Being young really sucks...and my heart hurts for him...and I remember that "take-back" urge I used to have so strongly in my teens...if only I could take back that choice an hour, a day or a week ago...felt like a rotten wind stuck in my chest...yucky feeling...remorse and regret...remorse for what I did do; regret for what I didn't do...both take backs.

Have you experienced that feeling? Share that with your DD13...talk about amends (and I'm still trying to figure out how to amend to myself...so I can share with DS21 how he can amend to himself), what we can do when we've torn it up and want to repair...because there are no take-backs.

I just saw your extra note...that would be you going into her stuff, btw. Ask DD22...what do you think about what you saw? Focus on DD22...not WW. Her perceptions matter...good to know...

And what are you doing looking at your WW walking anywhere?

Close your eyes, man! Notice the sky, the windows, the stones, the air you're breathing...do not look...do not break Plan B.

Dang it...I told myself "no chastising"...do you think I'm addicted?

LA

That was a quick response LA!! Thankyou. A lot to re-read and absorb before replying to it.

Hey, isn't it like mad late in your time zone right now?

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LA

LA,
I like your suggestion of sitting with DD13 in the classroom....but I will still have to get her to school.
Worth considering if necessary.
However , for the past week or so she is almost a changed girl. Up to the stables every day at least twice..she exercising both horses (my leg is still recovering after being kicked by her pony 4 weeks ago)...and sharing the workload with enthusiasm.
She is also spending time with her friends....but pony comes first!.
She likes the counsellor who is arranging for her to attend the first few weeks of school next term and we have stressed to her that this IS only for a short time.
On this basis she appears to be looking forward to school which she is aware is an important academic year.

So I am very hopeful.

I am trying to "state my boundary requirements and to enforce them progressively".
When we are at the stables, and fields, for hours, we talk about everything.
I often sit with her in the evenings...usually entails watching her favourite videos...and making small talk.

I am not spending as much time with DD19 as I was, mainly as he is at work all day, out with his friends, on the computer, at band practice or a gig, or football practice.
I often relax in his room for a while and he knows I am always there for him.


I could not avoid seeing WW on those two occasions and did look away...and I was driving away at the time.
And I avoid talking about WW with anyone.
I am very unsure how I would react now if I came face to face with her.
And I do wonder now and again how she became so involved with such a repulsive and unpopular character!.

Just to add that life, though very busy, too busy, for the last week or so ...has also been less stressful due to DD13's improved behaviour.
I just hope it continues like this.

WW pleased DD13 by contacting her yesterday to take her shopping in town.
As usual I did not ask DD about the trip but apart from showing me what she had bought, she also said.."mum called in at the store where she works (part time) and introduced me to her friends (work colleagues) but they did not seem very interested"!.

Also...DD23 wants to take DD13 away to a family party next weekend but DD13, after thinking about it, said..."No, Dad needs my help with the horses".

I do still think about WW often...which you may realise from comments in my posts. I try not to and she is certainly not on my mind to the extent she was some months ago.
There are triggers. And places I would prefer not to visit.

Did you kick her pony back? I wondered how you handle that...being kicked.

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I have been stepped on by a horse. I didn't step on his foot in return because I was too stunned and hurting. I didn't know I would bruise in the shape of a horseshoe on the bottom of my foot...not the top.

We weren't even dancing.

Harumph.

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Good job on all of it, Nagrom...the quality time...sharing...being shared with. Boys, well, ya gotta take it as they allow...different from girls, IMO.

As for WW...pre-set your own boundaries about bumping into her...what you would do...what you will do...if she calls, makes contact...prepared will be you relying on you...carrying through a promise to yourself...not about her. Prepare (predetermine) your response and then stick to it...don't worry if it doesn't arise. Stick with the script you prepared.

Don't waste your valuable mental time wondering how she, why she, etc. Not where you have control. APs are the lowest...I should know because I was one. That state of mind is off the charts...and I believe it's where the fairy tale frog into prince really comes from...where illusion and fantasy can make even a frog look princely...until you come out of the fog and you go...

Say what????

I would think you could get a custody arrangement in place by now...stating when WW can have DD visit and when she cannot...a routine...take out the erratic ups and down...what do you think? Ask DD13 what she thinks.

I know you're looking out for your kids. Awesome fathers are amazing men. Please know that.

LA

LA,
Thanks for your quick and helpful reply. I feel a little guilty that you usually respond immediately wheras I do not!.Usually due to giving your comments and advice careful thought...being extremely busy..and tiredness!.
I cannot recall whether I simply swore at the pony or hit her!. But I was leading both horses at the time ...they had a brief scrap...and the kick was aimed at my horse..and I was in the way!. All happened very quickly.
Your foot injury was interesting.

What you say about the illusions and frogs makes sense.

Am not sure whether it is yet time to make formal custody arrangements.
Something to consider.But will probably let things drift on as they are for now. May depend on whether DD13 is now settling down better now as she appears to be...keeping my fingers crossed!.

I sometimes join DS19 and his friends at our local pub/hostelry/bar...not the one associated with WW!!
They are a great bunch and DS19 tells me they regard me as "cool" and are impressed at how I am dealing with the situation and looking after everything.

Well, Nagrom...guilt comes from failing to meet other people's expectations...shame comes from failing to meet our own.

I don't expect you to reply quickly...or even at all. I see your posts as gifts...and set myself to receiving them whenever they come. Like Christmas, any given day.

I'm laughing at you swearing at the pony...and delighting that you didn't take that kick personally...okay, in your PERSON...lol...and I learned that ponies kick each other.

How 'bout that?

LOL

Worth waiting for, IMO.

(I can almost hear two pony voices saying, "Did not." "Did, too!")

I figure you don't ride a pony. You said horse. It's just not as fun picturing it that way, so I changed it.

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I suggested formal custody arrangements and meant visitation schedules. Something with routine, balance and set limits...not this off and on again stuff WW does...which accentuate ups and downs...I remember being 13 and having enough of those within, let alone associated with a WW...heavens!

Where WW could only have her two weekends a month...that's it. And for dinner two Wednesdays a month. Something which puts DD's schedule first and her mother with a pre-stated commitment to come through on those days.

And when she doesn't, you note it. Period.

You're teaching DD how to respond to adversity...very big life skill right now...and I think, learning a lot at the same time. I hope you'll hear about her experience with the counselor, share books you read to help yourself.

Sounds to me like you share a lot...and do so with DS19, too. I won't tell him you typo'd him into a daughter, 'k?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wondered if there were a competing pub you could go to...and build their business to put OM out of business.

See? Part of the frog-kissing princess in me lives...a tiny part. Wishful...not real.

LA

PS...So now you can say you really get a kick out of horses and be literal, eh? (I tried to talk myself out of putting that in my post...I really did.)

nagrom67

Haven't heard from you in quite a while.

How are you & your DD's doing?

How have the Dressage competitions gone?

Let us know when you can.

I have to say, Plan A really works. I am not sure where it will go, but you also need to value yourself as a man, and remember that NO ONE deserves this kind of treatment. This place has helped me tremendously, and just knowing that there are others who have come through this gives me hope. I hope it does the same for you, and you need to put your foot down. You would be surprised how well all of this works...read the Plan A and make one!

Best wishes...

Internet connection has been down for several months. Very annoying , but useful in a way as I have so much to do!!.
I am just testing with this message yto see if I have contact as computer problems not quite sorted.
Will answer your question WTF...thanks for making the contact.
And hope you are well LA.

Nagrom! Great to see you...intermittent connection...hmmmm....sounds like what I've been experiencing in my own marriage.

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Sorry you live where it's all green and beautiful...and not well wired to the global connector. Nice to see you when you can make it.

LA