LOL.

I ain't posting that. Why so I can be the poster child for how not to do things. LOL

You must be crazy if you learned a thing or two about it.

I used to say I knew how to be a good father and a good husband. Think to myself what would my dad do and then do the opposite. LOL.

Thats what people can do here. What would HL do and then do the opposite. LOL

Don't let the anxiety get to you. Just own yours.

And getting my head cut off and fed the the aligators might be a comfortable realease from this mess. LOL.

LOL...shacking on you?

ROFL...I have no idea what it means, but that word tickles me. I love it.

I think.

What does it mean?

Replying to your post...I picked out what I could address...and left the rest.

You believe we make each other feel, though not make each other think or believe.

I can't do anything with that. I respect you believe it.

Let me give you a scenario of why I believe differently:

Someone steps on my toe.

They made me feel physically pain.

They say, "Oh! I'm sorry. I didn't see you there."

I may not feel anything but a throbbing toe...most likely, I'll say, "Oh, it's nothing. No problem."

Only a throbbing toe.

If I felt ignored already, I might feel a little rejected...they SHOULD have seen me...and didn't.

If it's my H who's had his back turned toward me for five minutes while talking to another person, so unaware of my existence (in my mind), that he backs up, in hearty laughter, to inconveniently bump into me, I will feel heavy rejection, anger, emotional pain.

If they look me in the eye and say, "You're in my way," I will feel attacked and possibly, in their way. Then I will feel anger, from fear, and look them in the eye. "You stepped on my toe."

"No, I didn't."

Enough said. I can feel many different ways given my DJ's, mindset, and view of who is doing the stepping...all of which I choose...and feel. Mine. How are they making me feel?

If it was my DH, who stepped on my toe and I said, "Ouch!" and he was immediately concerned and remorseful, is he making me feel red with love and automatically forgiving?

Owning what we feel would be taking your statment, "Otherwise, I guess I just throw his words back at him and remain calm." and saying, "I feel like showing to him how he acts. I want to hurt back when I'm hurt, without acting out my anger or pain. I want to make him stop acting as he does, saying what he says. He hurts me."

What would be your most self-honest statement?

I remember years of wanting to throw something...once, I did. A plastic dinner plate--threw it clear across the kitchen into the sink (big kitchen) and it shocked me. Know what I threw at my H for years? Words. High decibel words. What was I trying to throw at my H? My pain, anger, resentment, frustration...not enough so that he would hear my words...I wanted him to FEEL my emotions. Esperience them so he would stop hurting me.

That was my truth. My life. All I knew. Thanks to Harley and MB...I know differently.

"just O&H statements for me, about me...out loud, with him."
Did you mean about you with him, or with him in the room?

In the room. LOL. "I am working on ownership instead of blame. Do we need more mayo?"

I state in much the same voice as "Look over there...I love that color blue."

I stopped asking him about him. I told about me. Tiny bits. Single truths. I listened, repeated for clarification or confirmation. Acknowledged.

Was I shacking on him?

As for the silent treatment...what he did was his...I continued to do O&H, focus on me, not ignore...I didn't chase him...H's way was to remove himself from my presence when doing the treatment...I didn't pursue. I did my own thing; I did not focus on the silence. I did use my reaction inside to learn more about why I felt abused by it.

As to your not apologizing for being O&H last night...is he asking for an apology? I'm confused.

LA

HL-NO, I'm not crazy, thought I've been told that on a number of occasions. LOL I happen not to believe it! LOL

LA-I'm not sure what it means either. LOL would like to know the same thing. LOL Right along with SA, I've seen it in the PA thread.

As for throwing, my past reaction has been to throw his words back at him, like I've done so many years, hoping to do exactly what you stated you were trying to do. However, I am trying to change that behavior to listen, repeat, and remain calm.

So, if I understand correctly all these years, I've lived for him, (H being the center of the universe), I should have been living for me. Not allowing every word that came from his mouth to be a deciding factor on my next move, thought, belief, etc. Take for example a meal, H doesn't like red beans, for example, I don't cook them because H doesn't like them. I love them and would love to cook them, but I don't because I know for a fact he will complain. I'm missing out of them because he doesn't enjoy them, thus denying myself a simple pleasure! I can't blame him for my choice on not to cook them, that is my choice. I'm denying myself, he's not denying me!

I'm trying!

I'm glad you got a laugh out of me! LOL I'm struggle with these new concepts.

No, H isn't asking for an apology, it's something I would have done in a future conversation. "I'm sorry that you didn't understand what I was trying to said or I'm sorry but I'm not going to whatever..." It's a habit, I'm sorry I made you feel... made you mad...

If I'm not sorry, then, I'm not going to own it anymore.

Well, H doesn't hide out, he does the treatment right in front of me...like I picked him up for lunch and unless I asked a question, he didn't speak to me. I plainly asked him "are you intentional not talking to me today?" H said "What makes you think that? or something, I can't remember now, but my respons was "That's just my perception!" H didn't say another word until I let him out of the car at his work, "Thanks, and closed the door."

He can home and sat right on the sofa with me. I asked him me what "this" is that he's not going to do anymore once he started talking again, but he never responsed. H very well said tonight he will call anybody that he wants, and my his actions (being on the porn site again, trying to do it behind my back, I walked in on him) to anything he likes. I Must have made him feel uncomfortable because I went get HNHN and sat down beside him, and he read a story for a few moments, didn't finish it, got up and went to bed. He was looking at pictures before I sat down. This is what started the conversation last night. H wouldn't discuss it after I said that I found it disrespectful to me. He got angry and said "you don't have to worry about me getting on it again...blah blah...treating me like a child..." Empty words, actions speak louder! He doesn't care how I feel he's going to do it anyway! (behind my back!)

IS he still talking to OW behind my back? I don't know, when asked he says no! I told him I was trying to trust him again. All I got was sarcasm, which I pointed out he was doing!

Can I check out now, I'm emotional drained? I'm craving affection, undivided attention, a good conversation between H and I, comfort and about a half dozen other things...

I told H tonight he was going to have to be the one to file for D if he wanted out, He said "I wasn't the one that went to a lawyer." I said "at the time, I needs to make some choices!" No response.

Is he just stinging me along, am I falling into his trap? I don't want to crave my needs day in an day out for the rest of my life! That's my fear talking! LOL

I'm still reading, educating, still lose...

thanks for the responses! Have a great morning/day/night!

LH-where are you? I miss you! Is this not your subject matter?

I really feel like I'm in a bad place right now! I feel like I don't want to be around him, kind of like you HL! Wandering if I can put up with much more and if it wouldn't be easier to call it quits. By the time, I went to bed last night, I was emotional drained and just wanted to cry. I was seeing forward motion before and now I'm not seeing anything!

I have all these questions in my head: Am I trying to hard? Am I concentrating on the PA side of it too much? I'm trying awfully hard to take it one day at a time. I feel better when I'm not around him! Is there something wrong with that? Figuring out that H's PA has made me feel better and worst all the same time! Most of the time, worst! I'm having trouble wanting to continue Plan A! I wish H would go somewhere and leave me alone!

See I'm not starting my day out to great, up early, exhausted, scatter brained, and having trouble smiling about today!

H left early for work this morning, I called him. He was at the "store" getting coffee. Yes, the "store" where he met OW, soon school will be starting and they migt run into each other. He)), I'm still trying to figure out the truth here, Did he have an A or not? OW says no, FWH won't tell me anything more that the questions I've asked. PA lies, make up stories! Just fear and doubt right? Common reaction?

I guess I need a nudge in the right direction, I'm so tired. Well, I think I'll try to take a nap before I have to go to work! Sleep sometimes helps!

Sorry, Needing. I've been off line for a few days and, regretfully, I won’t be here much the rest of the week either. I’ve been reading hard to catch up.

Remember we've all been talking about the rollercoaster? Seems like you’ve hit a downslope on the ride. You’ve found out some new problems you’re having to deal with in your relationship, but they aren’t new ones. They’ve just been swept under the carpet for a long while. Needing, don’t try to solve all of them yesterday. It isn’t going to work. Human beings do not change their behavior overnight and your husband isn’t going to either, okay?

You’ve let him know the porn is disrespectful to you and it hurts you. He knows his uncommunicative ways hurt you too. He knows these things. Now let that knowledge work in his mind. Change has to come from inside him, right? If he’s going to change, he’s the one who must do it. Give your disapproval a little time to percolate. He’s become very comfortable in his life being the focus of your life and it’s going to take a while for him to adjust to a new style of living where you and he are more equal partners. Don’t expect him to change like it would in a computer game. It isn’t going to work.

What will work is tinkering with yourself and making you into the person you want to be. That’s a lot of what Plan A is about. You can’t change him--you can only change those things about you that you want to make better. In the process, you attract him into wanting to be closer to you.

Hang in there, Needing. The rollercoaster goes down, but it also climbs up. Find something to take your mind off your situation from time to time and relax, okay?

Thanks so much LH! I value your advice. You have a way of calming my down! I appreciate that! I will definitely miss you in the days to come! I hope that whatever it is you are doing is enjoyable and peaceful! Oh, what the heck, throw some fun in there too! LOL

It felts so great at first to identify what the problem has been for so many years but now, it seems overwhelming. I'm just remembering to take one day at a time and each day is a new one.

I will definitely try to relax a little! I deserve that! Thanks again!

(((((LongHorn))))))

"...like I picked him up for lunch and unless I asked a question, he didn't speak to me. I plainly asked him "are you intentional not talking to me today?" H said "What makes you think that? or something, I can't remember now, but my respons was "That's just my perception!" H didn't say another word until I let him out of the car at his work, "Thanks, and closed the door."

See your dance? This is classic. Show me your part...your regular expectations and disappointments...and his. You wrote this so well, you can see clearly the steps you would like to change. Tell me your why's and then you can see your power.

LA

Let's see...

one, I expect him not to talk to me upon responsing to his body langauage and lack of communication, this was a DJ?
I should have said I feel like you are intentional not talking to me today. I should have owned that feeling!

I also expected him to (DJ) be in a bad mood because of our conversation, but he could have been upset about something else. The pattern doesn't indicate this however, if it was work related he usually talks.

Anyway, I could have influenced him to behave like that, since I was EXPECTING it anyway.

You caught your key in both hands...

Your expectations. The ones you have created and sustain in yourself...through evidence gathering...

I'm asking you to lay down all evidence (ACK!), which is judgment, which we use to create expectations, which rile up our emotions and keep our focus on others...instead of ourselves.

Quite a loop.

DJ's are when you assume or mind read...simple as that. Part of a fantasy world...full of I'm right! instead of "Hey, I'm married." You feel more safe when you can predict your H...it is a backfiring gun of judgment...he cannot be new when you assume he's old...

Here is where ownership ends the old dance...

"I am learning about myself. I expect after a fight like we had last night for you to react like A, B and C. Wow. I really have put you and me in a box...I can't see what is new if I keep looking at the old."

Now, if you intend to own stuff to get HIM to own stuff...stop. Don't do it. Stay silent yourself. The premise or your dance has been giving to get, tit for tat, you do which makes me do which makes you do...no one begins or ends it...

Ownership is you finding what you think, believe and feel as fascinating information. You find exmaining your intent, perspective, perception and attitude with new eyes to be full of power, freedom, limited responsibility...and the most marvelous study you've ever undertaken.

That's you about you.

"I'm surprised how much time I spend thinking about you and your choices, when I have so many of my own."

Could your urge to apologize come from needing to do that to yourself? Get out of your own way, NC...get to know this marvelously created human being...YOU...not him...share the journey...don't make him your destination.

You realized you've done this...and there's no undoing it...only way is today, to make you your existence (which it already is) and find a better payoff than the one you had in making HIM your point in the universe...and begin by finding that payoff...

LA

LA- I feel strongly about changing the dance, I can see small changes. I'm continuing to read SHMI's thread and it seems to me like a slow process but I'm learning. I look forward to posting at the end.

The major thing I've learned about myself is that I've lived in fear my whole life, never showing the world who I really am. WELL, BABY, I'm ready to light the world of fire. I want to make people laugh more, enjoy my kids more, actually do my hobbies instead of thinking about doing my hobbies.

I'm going to give up my expectation for H. I can remember all to well, expecting him to pick something up and H not do it, and resent the HE{{ out of him for it. I stopped that a long time ago! Right now, I hold no resentment for H. I'm not angry with him to my conscious knowledge.

Is hoping considered an expectation? I would think so, but then again, I have to learn a new way of thinking. I would think that I could always hope for my M and H to change. If my hopes down come true then, I would be the one setting myself up for disappointment, not H.

I'm interest to understand what you're ideas are on 180. For the thread it sounds to me to be something good to use with a PA, but HL also mentioned that you felt he was using 180 for negative purposes. Can you elaborate on 180 and when it would be helpful to use? I find that a lot on the list could be helpful in creating my own world and my our life. I have thought about using it but understand that it relates to Plan B.

If I apologized right now, it would be for the wrong reasons. I would like to but I would because I would want it to make a change it my M. I wouldn't be apologizing for me. I would like to say that I'm sorry for holding you to all of my expectations and getting angry at you for holding up to me expectations. That was my fault! I expected H to help with the kids, chores, clean up after himself, follow though with promises, take care of me, protect me, adore me, provide affection, etc. etc. etc. When affection wasn't provided I felt rejected, unattactive. When H didn't help with the kids or the house, I felt like the slave.

That's a lot to change. Now, what's done around the house is done around the house, the end!

It is what it is!

NC,

Hope you are getting through this.

I have to tell you that the 180 has had some success.

What I am having a hard time with is the whole expectation thing.

I have a hard time not expecting anything from my FWW.

There is a contradiction in saying don't expect anything from her. If I expect nothing from her that is in itself an expectation.

I am also having a hard time dealing with the contradiction that if it has always been this way and I make the conclusion that this time it will happen again it is a DJ.

The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing the same way and "expecting" a different outcome.

So we go into a conversation with no expectations we try to tell the FWS how we feel and they do the same thing, or say the same thing. It is upsetting to you. But because you expected a certain amount of common decency you were wrong for expecting that. Own your own. You did you told him how you felt and how did that work out for you.

Now the direct relationship in my eyes between owning your own and working on just you. What caused the A? We were not fullfilling our WS needs. I have said before that a relationship should be 100%-100%. Each person giving 100% to their spouse. The 100% being a sliding scale. On some days your 100% is more then on other days. If I spend all my time focusing on me and how I can get better my 100% is less. This means I cannot do as much for my FWW.

In a sense I am going to have to ignore or not fullfill some of her needs because she is not filling mine. Well she is not filling mine but I won't have an A. She has shown if I am not fullfilling hers she is quit capable of going elsewhere to fulfill those needs. Am I A proofing my M.

In addition to that I am now responsible for owning mine which I like but on the other hand I am dealing with someone that has not owned theirs. This is a double standard in my eyes.

So NC what to do.

I would say figure out what you want to be and how you want the relationship to be in the future. Make a plan of action in regards to getting to that future. Then implement them now. I posted on the PA site "fake it till you make it" It may feel unnatural to act a certain way because of an existing habit.

It takes 21 days to break a bad habit and the same time to instill a good habit.

If it is a habit to react or act a certain way make it a point for the next 21 days not to do that.

If everytime he says x you say y don't say y. Heck don't say anything.

You know I got to the point with the FWW that when she asked whats wrong I said why bother telling you I know how this is going to play out. I know it was a DJ but you know what I am not insane. I have learned from my past.

Now that I have made that DJ she is aware of the fact that is how it has played out almost every single time. Whats the first step in correcting a problem? Realizing there is a problem. If I have to point it out so be it. I can't say for sure if she would have ever come to that conclusion and I wasn't going to wait to find out.

I have realized that knowing how it is going to end up and not saying anything is worse then saying something and it ending up that way.

I realized I am tired of it. I realized this dynamic is not healthy for me.

NC -

Been busy, but still following your thread. Something you said jumped out at me:


I had a very similar statement with LA a while back on my thread. I came to the conclusion that hope does not become an expectation - expectations masquerade as hope.

We all hope for things. It's when we put too much emphasis on the resut we're hoping for - when we come to rely on our happiness or fullfillment resulting from that hope being met in the way we want it to be met - then it is an expectation.

You hope your husband will love you. You hope your husband will show you affection. If he doesn't, what is your reaction?

If your reaction is to get upset or bitter, then your hope was probably really an expectation. If, on the other hand, you accept that he didn't show you affection, and don't hold resentment or anger towards it, then it was just that - a hope.

It's a fine line, and one easily crossed (I should know...I've got more stamps on my hope/expectation line crossing passport than the world's biggest stamp collection <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ).

You're getting great feedback from hurting and LA. My schedule is keeping me from posting as much as I would like, but you are still making progress. I don't think your husband is backsliding - he may be stalled, for a number of reasons, but I wouldn't give up the ship yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

HL- I was having a rough go of it this morning, but when LA asked what me part in the dance was and I was able to see it; my day changed! I didn't feel so hopeless, just thoughtful.

I had even TMed H, this morning saying that I didn't feel like I would be very good company at lunch, and I would pick up OS today b/c yesterday it appears to me that it was a bother for him. He didn't reply, so I TMed him and said he didn't do anything that I was protecting him from me and I loved him! An hour later, he called and asked what was going on. I said that I was in a better mood that I feel beaten and not by him. He joked back and said that he hadn't beaten me yet. We agreed to go to lunch. I didn't speak very much, but we did talk. I'm glad that he didn't ask me what I felt beaten about b/c I'm not ready to disclose that information. As I mention before about the apology, I can see so clearly how my expectation have had a direction result on how we functioned together.

There has been a many of conversation b/t H and I where he had said it's the way I approach things He wasn't in PA mode when he said this). I never really understood what H meant, but I approached whatever it was with anger, resentment, and an you owe me attitude. You owe me because you've hurt me! I expected him to make things better, adn he could tell, causing the rebellion. There's the dance! What if I didn't expect payback from him? What if I had an open mind, owned my own, and didn't DJ?

After the day that I had my melt down, I didn't expect him to bring me shopping. I felt like I didn't deserve it. I was shocked that he did it, it was a bonus, a sign of unconditional love in my eyes. I didn't have that for him, my love ran on rules! He didn't pick up his plate; it must mean that he doesn't love me! He forgot that I wanted to go here, he must not want to go! I assumed all this things and the anger and resentment built up. I would do things like not pick up his clothes after folding them to try to get back at him for not doing or saying something I expected him to or for even doing something that I didn't agree with. Of course, he would react to me and the dance was on, each of us pulling and pushing the other. Instead of opening my heart and having unconditional love for him, my love was dependent on what he did or didn't do in my eyes.

I have to wonder who's the real PA! LOL

You have to understand that I changed my reaction not once but twice which caused him to be off balance to begin with. I can understand H sticking to his old ways because it's what he's accustom to, it's comfortable but uncomfortable. He now, has to learn to adjust to my reaction, once this is done you introduce another change, and repeat the process.

It's like a PA and S is picking up where they left off in childhood, if that was 9 yrs. old, you're starting there. 9 yrs. olders need practice, repetition, one day the PA and S will be 13, and so on. Your not acting at a father or mother figure, because you are having to learn everything yourself, you are equal!

I think that by working on yourself, you are hoping to create a more desirable person in your spouses eyes. You are hoping to find the person that was lose on the way into the M, the person that your S fell in love with, not the person you are b/c on unhealty choose. By working on yourself, you are in essence removing all the grim that's clogged your pipes! As you remove the build up, you become more open minded, more a peace with yourself, and are able to truely listen and learn what needs to be attended to in your M.

I don't think you can worry about your S, so far we've lived to worry about our S. We're learned that we can't control them, but we can control others.

The more I learn about myself, examine the past, and resolve to changing the faults I've found, the more at peace I feel with myself, the less anger I have with H becasue it was my perceptive that influenced my reaction.

This is what I've come to learn in the past few days. I'm looking forward to reading that article and doing 21 days of whatever. LOL

As far as how I'm handling all of this, I'm on the rollercoaster and I'm not ready to get off yet! LOL

Where's the operator? let's go again! What's you favorite part? LOL

NC,

Good for you. Sounds like you are on solid ground now.

I have to say I think it may be working for you too.

I used to read a lot of books regarding sales. My philosophy was It was worth it if I found one thing that was helpful. Each book was different each philosophy was different but in the end if I learned one thing that helped.

Thats why I like this board. Sometimes you read and read and don't think anything of it. You think that was no help then boom it did.

Sometimes just sounding it out is all a person needs. A release, a vent etc. Got it off my chest great.

Now it seems like our FWS are starting to see something they didn't see before.

Maybe he will like the new person.

I have always said it is hard to be responsible for someone elses feelings. Now I am responsible.

Glad you are having a good day.

My favorite part is the loops. Wohhoooooo

Broken- I can see what you're tlaking about the fine line b/t hope and expectation. It's a cause for great awareness; hoever, I think that if you leave you're hopes very general or vague, there's less room for disappointment. I thnk if you are very specific about what you hope for then, of course you're going to be disappointed.

LA had asked if about sabotage, I'm not sure if H sabotaged the progress or if I did. The more I examine the conversation, the more I think, yes, I was calm, but was I listening. was I expecting him to understand the first time what I meant by "I'm tired of being scare of you. I'm not scare of you anymore!" I'm more inclined to think that I put on the brakes, and he reacted, doing the same thing. I didn't explain why I was scare of him, outside of saying I'm scare of you being angry, and he ran with it. I could have said that I'm scare of the way you show your emotions, I'm uncomfortable with that, but I'm working on it.

Did I create a "SAFE" environment? No! I don't think I did!
I probably would have reacted the same way. I would have felt threaten, questioning what do you mean you're not scare of me anymore? Since the PA doesn't have the coping skills,, they react the only way they know how!

No hijack here a question. LOL
I am afraid of the aligators.

So the hope thing I think I am getting.
It is like buying a lottery ticket. I of course hope I win the lottery but when not even one of my numbers comes up I am not dissapointed.

I work better with analogies btw. Is this what you are saying broken?

I would like some peanut M&M's.

Oh, one of my favorite, that I "forgot" about! I can eat a huge bag in a day at work! LOL I'll have to sarafice for the next few days, but it's worth it! LOL

If I understand it right, you nailed it! Don't set yourself up for disappointment! If you don't hit a single number, you said "it figures!" If you hit one, you're a little excited but you weren't expecting it, so you say "at least I got one this time!"

Speaking of alligators, the other day, a friend of mine was saying that there was a ten foot one blocking the road somewhere's here in town. I don't think I've ever seen one that big before!

Ok gonna have to try to wrap my head around that one.

I try to be honest with myself at all times. I have to figure out if I have it in me to do that. I want to be fair about this.

Now she is asking me to help her with some problems at work. I almost gave her advice etc then I said let me wrap my head around this. I really don't know what to do. I want her to make her own decesion but she has asked me to help her. In other words tell me what to do. Do I tell her figure it out yourself?


That is why this is so darn hard. LOL.

I went through a half a pound bag plus a big thing of cold stones ice cream. Love my sweets. Thats how I gained the 50lbs I had to lose. LOL.

You're expecting that she asking you to tell her what do to! DJ
Ask her how she wants you to help, get her talking she may figure it out herself. Tell her to bounce some ideas off of you, then ask her which idea she see would be best. If it doesn't work out, you're not to blame. Get her to brainstorm!

HAHA, LOL! ME too! I get lost in them sometimes, but when I gain a few pounds, I'm backing down! LOL

OK.
She told me she wants me to tell her what to do. I should really state those things clearly. No DJ here. Got a band playing instead. LOL

I looked at phone and she talked for 7 minutes without a breath. LOL.

At the end she said "what do you think I should do?" I started telling her what I thought she should do and stopped. The whole wrapping my mind around it. I asked her what she thought she should do. She said I don't know that is why I am asking you what I should do because you are better at that then me."

Now I like the bouncing ideas off of me thing. I like me not being to blame too.

See that is why I asked. LOL