I really like the shorter version ... no arguing with that!

I really like the part about the past being the past. The only thing I'd change is "Should I slip up, I expect you to listen, not offer advice or your opinion." I wouldn't leave slipping up as an option.

Maybe something like "We do not want to recieve any more advice or opinions unless we ask for them."

How are you feeling now about the letter and the argument yesterday? I know you want to get it done quickly, but make sure you take some time to breathe and think before you rush into anything. You know, the act as opposed to react thing. (I'm not saying AT ALL that the letter is a bad idea, I think it sounds good, just want to be sure that you're keeping your focus and not feeling rushed into doing somehting you might decide later you wished you had done differently.)

-AmI.

Wow ... LA is SOOOOOO much better at this stuff than I am. I second what she just said.

If you choose to do the letter, here are my questions...

Why are you thanking her, really, for coming over?

Do you truly value her self-expression?

Do not betray yourself through lies by telling yourself you're gracious...you ARE a gracious human being, Rin...speak truthfully.

You want what to end now?

How can you be certain you both can remain friends? What if she doesn't want to?

Rin--you want to drop kick me for pointing out DJs when you're hurting? I would understand. I'd ask first, then bend over...this is the level of friendship I'm pursuing...I know you're hurting and do not withhold what I see, how I see it...which expresses my respect and trust that you will read and choose your way...and I will not have withheld or betrayed you by thinking you can't handle it...pure respect. Trust. Honesty.

And if costs me a sore tushie, I'm up for it.

LA

You all know that I value your opinions, and you gave me exactly what I wanted. I want this because I wanted something to think about to see me true. I plan to do the letter right now, but that may change. I'm in a hurry for a draft of the letter b/c I want to discuss it with H. Why? I value his opinion also, and I feel that he is closer so he can give me a clearer opinion of the impact this may have on the households.

I have a lot more to say but I have to run. I will be back.

LA-your thoughts, and beliefs are what cause my fondness for you. I compete with myself for growth, it's an internal struggle, which WILL result in growth. Thank you!

You could always write the lette and just "sit on it" or put it in a journal. So that in your mind there is clousre for YOU.

Just a thought.

Blind

Rin,

Just wanted to check in and say I hope you are doing ok.

Been gone for 4 days. Not going to read through because I am lazy.

Looks like you are getting some good advice.

I don't know the exact sitch with the neighbor but I would says spend energy on what is important to you.

LA, AmI, 7142, BS06, HL- thank you all for your posts. You know I value all of your opinions and advice.

BS06-That is a wonderful idea!

I spend lunch with H. He was very O&H with me. He said that I needed to do what was right for me. He also said that he didn't want to see that she had a thing for him but the more people that voiced their opinion, he saw and that why he stopped going over there as often as he was. H is accepting my feelings as my own and he's not trying to fix the problem. H is leaving it up to me.

I'm up in arms right now, but I do feel that it she does not hear me then writing the letter will make no difference. H made a statement about her being delusional at lunch and that she feels she has more of a right to him then just a friend. With than in mind, I feel I have to treat her as a wayward having a one sided A with my H. H has no feeling for her, and has been distancing himself from her. He has stated to me one of the reasons he was going to OW's at first was as a means of escape from her, me, and the kids. It was his hide out because the minute she knew he was home, she would call or ask him to come over to "fix" something. This is fact, and it did create a problem b/t H and I. SHe did stop calling as much, after I had talked with her H about it. I feel that I should talk to her H and tell him that I feel she has feelings for him more than a friend or brother, like she likes to call him.

H is not concerned with having her as a friend, but he's worried about mainintaining his friendship with her H. I have the same concern. I feel like she was in withdrawal because H had not talked to her in three days. I sincerely believe that she came over acting like the OW. It would explains the abuse of yesterday, because she had never treated me like that before.

With that said, I feel like no matter what I do or say, I will not be heard. That yesterday is camoflage for the real problem. She didn't want to hear because that is what she wanted. H brough up a few memories of "our Family," meaning the three households going out for drinks. During an intoxicate state on more than one occasion, she has kissed him squarely on the lips, holding H face in her hands. Her H looked away after she did it. I wasn't concerned because I know how H truly feels about it. It was dropped, nothing said, didn't even bother me, H had to remind me today!

Now, knowing what I know, even though this is a one sided A, I should expose to her H, correct or not?

As for me, I feel like she doesn't know the definition of a friend, therefore, I am choosing to not be her friend right now. I am choosing to treat her like the OW, and anything I do in respect to her would be a total waste of my energy.

My energy must be conversed for me and my M, what's truely important. My M is more important then her friendship. My M will sustain, it's the important issue right now. When I feel totally confident with my M, I may address the issue in the future, but not until then. I feel that Her H and my H can maintain their friendship, should we get together for something, I will be respectful and polite. I will not allow outside issues to affect achieving my goal which is connecting with self and saving my M.

I'm done with it for the time being! I will not hold any resentment or anger! She doesn't deserve an explanation of why H and I are doing what we are doing, we are the ones that matter!

I am amazed by some of the things that H has said in the past few days. For instance, "...can't tell you what to feel." "You have to decided what's right for you." That's the two that stand out in my mind, we may not be focusing on each other directly, but I feel a growth occurring here on his part. He has also said many times, not just to me, that he choose to go to OW's house." So, I hear "owning" up to his choices and actions. Last night, he say he's was sorry that he couldn't fix everything. I said "Something aren't meant to be fixed!" (Drive-by!) he went to sleep on that note, and I spend some time to myself thinking about the days events.

I did tell H last night, that I had plans to talk with him about something I felt was important, and had played the conversation over in my mind, but I hadn't gotten furthur then: I need to talk to you but first take some time to decompress from your day. When we do speak, I will need to feel safe and what I mean by safe is not phy. it's emotional safe. I think yesterday with N was a good lesson for the both of us on verbal and emotional abuse.

"As for me, I feel like she doesn't know the definition of a friend, therefore, I am choosing to not be her friend right now."
"...anything I do in respect to her would be a total waste of my energy."
"My M is more important then her friendship."
"I will not allow outside issues to affect achieving my goal which is connecting with self and saving my M."
"I will not hold any resentment or anger! She doesn't deserve an explanation of why H and I are doing what we are doing, we are the ones that matter!"


WOW!! You sound like a whole different person than when you posted last night.

How do you feel?

I think you did a great job!

I also think we need LA's home, work, and cell numbers so we can get her anytime we need her ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-Ami.

Thank you, I will accept the pat on the back with no problem! LOL

Free! That's how I feel! I don't need to be contaminated by nuclear waste!

She would kill us...LOL...anytime, can you imagine...LA, what color should I wear today...I'm feeling...but the chicken are...so I feel like I need to...LOL

I know I'm proud of myself for reaching my decision.

ROFL to AmI and Rin...

You guys have these answers...I'm just training wheels...you guys are the bikes...I promise...just as Rin got to it...there's a way into and through yourself...the more you take that route...the more routine it truly becomes.

But then, our TRIATHLETE knows this...(big congrats and I saved the link for next year...not in my area yet, so I can beginning my training...have to start now to come close!)

LA

Basically, I am withdrawing from any more discussions not to avoid conflict, because my instincts are telling me to attack, but I have to decline to fight for self-perservation. In the past, I would withdraw from H to avoid conflict, because it was easier then to fight for what I believed to be true. To fight in that case would have been self-preservation. I would have been fighting for respect, my integrity, my beliefs, my thoughts, and my feelings. Had I fought instead of surpressed my resentment I would not be having to find myself now, I would have already knew who I am.

My N tried to get my off track, and cause confusoin b/t H and I; however, it caused us to stick. Perhaps she played her hand to late? I don't care! I matter! Now, I need to get back on track, and discuss NC and what that means to me.

I also realized that by purchasing the HD, H and I renewed a non-verbal committment to each other. We vowed to be together for x amount of years. I think it's a funny way to make a commit, but it has been called to my attention with the recent situation. At the time, I don't think neither one of us, saw it that way; however, talking about it at lunch, that's what we did. We are committed to our M and that's what matters the most.

I have come to the conclusion that we just need to communicate EFFECTIVELY, Honestly, and openly! We need to not be abusive in our speech, learn to respect each other, and be true to ourselves.

Here are some lessons that stand out in my mind: When I feel like I want to withdraw from H; it is the best time to put my best foot forward! I need to remember to value him for who he is not who I want or would like him to be...just him...just OS...just YS. I just might learn something from them, that might make me say "wow"...but I can only do this through creating a safe environment and REALLY listening.
I have learn to value me our feelings, thoughts, ideas, and beliefs...sometimes they need to be re-evaluated...to stay true to myself...to make sure that I'm not slipping into out habits (destructive)! I am worthy of respect! I have a voice that needs to be hear, if only, to get it off my chest! Actions speak louder than words...you may be able to deceive yourself with your words but your actions will give you away every time!

So, this is what I've learned thus far...I'm sure I have missed a lot, but I feel I'm on the right path and have great training wheels (LOL). Just need to work on balance! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Rin,

Wow...

You went from this:

"To fight in that case would have been self-preservation. I would have been fighting for respect, my integrity, my beliefs, my thoughts, and my feelings. Had I fought instead of surpressed my resentment I would not be having to find myself now, I would have already knew who I am."

to this...

"I have learn to value me our feelings, thoughts, ideas, and beliefs..."

You used to fight for what was already yours and yours alone. That removes a lot of conflict which wasn't there...that you would withdraw from...which wasn't there.

I hear the routine kicking back in with...

self-disparaging: "Had I fought instead of surpressed my resentment I would not be having to find myself now, I would have already knew who I am." You did fight...what you could not control...wanting desperately for your sons and husband to acknowledge, understand and FEEL and BELIEVE what was yours...now, I believe, you're learning not only to value what is yours, but to stop at the understand...which is what you wanted your N to do...acknowledge, understand, feel and believe what you did...what was yours...and you see how invalidating that fight really is...why does self have to fight for what already is?

Speaking is not fighting...it is self-commitment.

Sharing is not making someone acknowledge or understand...it is speaking.

You learning you ARE valid, more and more, will lessen this desire to attack, overtake...change what is not within your control to change...and free you to change what is...

You're getting there...I loved you not withdrawing when you felt attacked...sharing, anyway...do the same for validation when you feel invalidated...address you first, then others...in your time...your power...

Self-truths: Only you know you...only you have the ability to share you, disown you, disrespect or respect you.

Being safe for YOU and really listening to you...you will wow yourself...no doubt.

I've seen you do it.

Stay in your power...ownership...

"My N tried to get my off track, and cause confusoin b/t H and I; however, it caused us to stick."

You felt great anger, resentment and frustration when your N said what she said. It couldn't get you off track...it is part of it...more discovery...to rage at someone else...and you are still finding more reasons that helps, aids, soothes, has a pattern, is a device...of your choosing.

You were confused. H was confused. You stuck and H stuck.

How great God is...because this was part of DDay, and it came again, now, when NC was broken...and you weren't...and H did not receive the fight, the attack, of you fighting for your feelings, thoughts, beliefs, respect, control...?

There was a buffer...an issue called N...and now you are re-centered...as you said, "I matter!" and you do...and you did...and no one can change that...you will...because you see it now...where you didn't before...nothing to fight others for...your very own. You matter.

Same with you being worthy of respect. Define it...know it...see if you are calling it what you believe or what others believed and you adopted a long time ago...

Because everyone is worthy of love (we are lovable); respect (we are separate), whole, equal, complete and marvelously made...and to know this and live it is an act of respect.

Beware non-verbal commitments...they are interpretive. I believe in yours...I believed in yours before the HD purchase...

Sounds like it isn't non-verbal, after lunch. Sounds like the actions became words, shared, understood and believed...mutually.

Which could be an act of commitment in and of itself, wouldn't it?

You ready to have a new, daily goal?

Not to have smooth feelings, but to know your feelings?

Whatever you miss...you will have opportunity to learn...and please take note of the deja vu feeling...usually it's a lesson come 'round again. God is patient...he is giving you what your soul prays for...to learn and grow...and you're doing just that.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for being O&H here...sharing who you are, in full glory (and it is glory)...

LA

LA-I am speechless, I'm going to have to read and re-read this. I actually teared up and thought for a moment they would roll right down my face! My day was already made, but sharing your thoughts with me topped it off!

Thanks is not enought!

Hmmm...thanks is not enough...

Admiration, appreciation and acceptance...are not enough?

Really?

You're one tough nut! (Oak or otherwise)

Blessed is what I call it.

You're welcome.

LA

Hey, my night didn't end very well, I bought up NC. H really not happy about it. He says that he does feel that "he should have to report to me everytime he sees OW." Then, he got sarcastic, and was saying stuff like everytime he passes her in the street he'll tell me about it, write it down with the sure to wrote the date and time also. He asked me for a list again of what I wanted from him, I agreed said that I would start working on it tomorrow (2day). He was in PA mode. He wanted to know why I needed this I explained about rebuilding trust, did a horrible job, didn't mention transparentcy. He was trying hard to play the victim. I sucked with the exception that I bought up the conversation. I said that I made a point that everytime OM (from ONS) called, that I immediately called him to let him know that C has been made. I did this before I ever knew all MB. He said that he not threated by OM, because he had nothing to offer. So, I said what your telling me is that OW has nothing to offer you, he replied yes!

I asked if he would try to call her, he said no that he found out what he needed to know. I asked what if she calls you, he said he would not answer the phone. I don't trust him to do this. I get the feeling that he feels it's better to lie by omission then to tell me. He asked what was it going to accomplish if he hurried up and reported to me. he said he would even let me know when he passed her in the street. Sarcasim, sarcasim, that what I got, he's trying to change his game.

We briefly talked about Thurs. when I left. He went ride his bike, and when he got back, that's when he said he got pissed off, around 10:30 at night, seeing that I had not made it back when he pulled into the driveway.

I know PAs to the opposite of what you want, but I was asked for it so I'm going to do it. It' the second time. I'm starting with the four rules of marriage, with POJA and an explanation. I had to ask to get SAA back, he walked to his truck to get it. I was in bed with the lights out and he throw in on me. I just replied with a Thank you!

I was left empty and feeling like I needed comforting. Whenever this happens, I know it seems childish, but I grab a teddy bear that was my OS's. My mom gave it to him as an infant, and my YS slept with it in his bed (he didn't like it). Needless to say, I feel like I have my mom and both my sons comforting me when he's unable, which is most of the time. It's just not enough, how do you get through it?

On a positive note, when H go home, he drove my bike to a nearby arking lot for my first days of circles, and getting to know the bike. I was very proud of myself, and H said he was impressed! I was on cloud nine when we got home and I read LA's post to me! That wsa ruined when I asking about C.

If he says that OW has nothing to offer him, then why am I having to even worry about C being made. Hello, no trust in his words, but he's actions betray him.

I don't have any ideas right now, except, I will be using the 4 rules, POJA, and I'm not sure whatelse yet. I'm to sleepy and tirder to think about it right now!

I feel very discouraged today and wondering why I'm even trying to save my M today. After last night conversation, I don't feel understood; perhaps from not being able to get me point across. I don't feel like I did a good job with that. It's almost a feeling of hopelessness; however, I still feel like I have some fight left in me.

This morning I will be research withdrawal, and gathering my thought for the "list." I don't think the list will work because of the PA. But I'm willing to try, that's why I am going to use MB rules, and add NC.

It addition to think ing about the above this morning...I've had my nose in the dictionary...it's amazing that what we think we know we're not on point with...N was never a friend...more so a person whom I tolerated.

Another thing I am wondering about, is how does one comfort self? I have needed this several times in the past week (unlimited times in pre-D-day) and I'm having a very difficult time finding what I need. I'm very frustrated feeling this way.

It would be easier if I knew what was going on with my H. I question if I'm still rushing thing and if my foot is moving while I'm trying to stand still!

Well, I had some things to look up, at least for peace of mind...best wishes to all!

I really could use (would like) Mr. W or another FWH's this morning. It would be greatly appreciated! I need to understand what my DH is going through.

Morning, Rin...

" After last night conversation, I don't feel understood; perhaps from not being able to get me point across."

Tell me why you don't feel understood by H...and how can you tell when you get your point across?

I need some clarification on your list..."I don't think the list will work because of the PA." There's a purpose for you listing what you need to recover from his A? Is that what we're talking about? It isn't O&H list...it has a function which you believe won't work because of his P/A behaviors?

Self-comfort...the question of the last millenium...you don't ask much, huh?

First, tell me what you experienced...discouragement...is that a word you looked up?...fear-based feeling...coming from your belief...which one? That WH isn't remorseful, isn't committing to NC, transparency, nothing to heal you?

What was it last night? Rejection? Identify these emotions...list THOSE...notice what you feel while you identify, then trace back to the belief you have that they are coming from...

Doesn't sound like a quick-fix, does it? Are you asking for true comfort or stopping emotions you don't like?

Frustration...what does that feel like to you? Can you find the expectation in it? You say you are having a difficult time finding what you need...in others? Yourself? Or finding out what you need?

LA

I'm frustrated because I couldn't find the words to explain what I wanted NC and O&H when contact has been made. It feels pointly to keep asking for that because I feel like I'm going around in circles. Like a dog chasing it's tail! I wasn't met with anger but sarcasm this time. I feel like the list of "what I want from him" will not work because PA's tend to do the opposite when asked for something. It's almost a hopelessness feeling! I'm distressed, anxious, crushed, and embarrassed. I'm distressed and anxious because I fear future C between H and OW. I'm crushed because was not understood, and I know that is my fault. when asked why I needed to know all I could say was that it was him being Honest with me and it was a way to rebuild trust. I'm embassed with myself for not knowing what to say when he time came.

I don't feel rejected...I an looking for true comfort, reassurance (that there will be no further C, and that we will be fine), affection (a hug). I have often noticed that is what I need in a situation like last night. I can even remember wanting a hug from my N.

Yes, the list has a function is will be what I need to recover...I was thinking a list of expectation and that is the reason along with H running in the opposite direction why it would work...that would be sabotaging myself before I even got started...if I look at it as a list of what I NEED to recover...it somehow changes for me...

My list to recover (what I need out of my M) would include, which I am more than willing to do the same, because it wouldn't be much different for me:

...be completely honesty with me about himself;
his thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
and plans for the future.

...account for his time (willingness to be completely honest about all activities)

...avoid being the cause of my unhappiness

...meet my most important emotional needs (H&O, Affection are the top two, and I will list the rest)

...undivided attention (which he does meeting each others ENs)

...Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement
between you and your spouse

...Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.

...avoid Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, Angry Outbursts, Annoying Habits, Independent Behavior, and Dishonesty

There it is! That what I need and want from my M, from my H, and I'm more than willing to return the efforts.

It does bother me that he is not more remorseful; that's why I was looking up withdrawal, and the signs, and what I need to look for. Not only for H but for N. I wasn't looking for remorse until he appears to be so cold, not just with me, but when he said "OW has nothing to offer him." I feel like that should have made me feel good but it didn't. It just confused me more!