HL -


OK..I generally agree with what you say (or at least can understand your point of view), but I hope you're not seriously recommending this, even as a last resort.

NC is a boundary. A consequence of failure to maintain NC can mean loss of the marriage, or other things.

The proposal above strikes me more as manipulation, rather than a boundary with enforceable consequences. I.e., give me NC or I'll see what guys are out there that I can have sex with.

What's good for the goose is not always good for the gander, especially when the gander is trying to keep (or regain) the goose's attention, and/or what the goose thinks is good for him really isn't, and deep down he knows it.

I know you've been in your situation a long time - longer than me and Rin put together. I know that your (F?)WW is still nowhere near where you want her to be, and you're rapidly reaching the end of your rope.

I'm not criticizing you, or at least not trying to. Simply put, I think this particular piece of advice is...questionable. It's a tactic used on the playground - and it's not very effective there either.

Of course, ultimately it's up to Rin to decide. If she wants an open marriage and her husband does to, that's their choice. But I don't think it'd be a marriage in line with what this site is about, and it's definately not conducive to saving a marriage.

After all - an open marriage is just a feeble attempt at legitimizing an affair (IMO). It's hard enough, I beleive, to recover when just one spouse is unfaithful. When both spouses have been unfaithful, especially when one has chosen to be unfaithful in response to the other's original unfaithfulness, you add just that much more baggage to work through.

Not worth it. At least to me. It's probably one of the main things that has kept me from actively contemplating or seeking a revenge A.

Now to end on a positive note - I like what you say about detachment. Probably not the path for me yet, but I can certainly use parts of it to prevent myself from getting angry when MP doesn't respond the way I want her to.

BB & Rin...

MP has it...stated expectations, not hidden ones...hence, Rin, you wanting to know what, how and why...

The choice to meet others' expectations remains our own...and this is difficult when enmeshed...entwined...which is why I ask you to consider removing your expectations of others first...getting clear on how under-the-radar they really are...full of assumptions and mindreading...and in getting clear through elimination, you can better see others' expectations of you...real or imagined.

At the same time, you're learning to state what is yours, correct? Practicing...thoughts, feelings, beliefs, observations, expectations, perspectives and perceptions...

Hmmm...learning to state your expectations...after you see them for what they are...maybe Rin, you had that when you expected your H to NOT say, "Rin has to have it her way"...and he did.

All these new beliefs work together...to help you center yourselves, know your limits and power...and clear out the false stuff, tripping you up...a process, not an all-at-once deal. Takes time, practice, focus...and each slip helps you in your practice...for clarity.

No self-bashing...learning to speak, like our earliest time, is a new skill...and one we thought we knew how to do well...when we didn't...because all those words were about others, not ourselves...judgments, assumptions, desires...and getting ourselves clear makes our communication clear...which dynamically better than before...

A process...a puzzle without a picture on the box...like BobPure said...and Rin...you owned you want to know the road ahead, what it looks, tastes and feels like...ahead...ahead...

Staying present, where you are, right now...that framework is scary...and real. It's real. Stay here.

You choose. He chooses. Separate and equal.

Give yourself permission to say, "Ouch! I respect that is your opinion, I hear you really see me as controlling. I appreciate this information."

State it for him and yourself...it's information, not fact. Information, not fact.

As for your question about his jealousy (which is his)...I go for projection...he feels jealous of what others appear like to him...confident, wise, knowledgeable, mature, open, honest...whether they truly are or not...and he's jealous, so will see others as jealous.

Just my guess...not truth. Not The Truth...and really, none of our business...when we have so much in us which we project, so we can see and embrace, understand and love about ourselves...don't you think?

You all are great companions on this journey...through and through. I appreciate you.

LA

Broken,

I understand exactly where you are coming from. Yes I have been through a lot and from that I have gained a little insight into things I wish I would have done differently.

I have found that when talking with my FWW things that she knew were wrong she would minimize.

I will give you an example. My FWW flirted she said it was no big deal. Kept doing it. It bothered me but what could I do. When enforcing my boundry I ended up being the bad guy. PA behavior. One night I flirted. Somewhat calculated on my part. She blew a gasket, said everything I said about it, humiliating etc. We went out a few weeks later she did it again. All I said was remember how you blew up at me? She now had experiance in REALITY of the feelings I had. Guess what that was the last time I had to deal with it.

Now I will tell you I tried just about everything else.

Giving someone a dose of their own medicine is sometimes good. Even if it is just a Placebo. I never said to date or have SF or anything else.

Sometimes Drastic times call for drastic measures.

AGain I am not advocating it necesarrily. I just think sometimes people will deny something until they have to face it themselves.

We all know her H would not think it was ok if she was doing it. Getting him to admit it so it becomes his reality is what Rinderella needs to figure out.

We can talk about her boundries but she wants this M. No doubt in my mind about that. The OW is getting in the way and so is the contact.

If I did this and it worked I would be OK with that.

BTW I don't mind if you critisize me. It is a normal part of life. LOL. I very rarely have hard feelings about stuff like this.

I am just saying that if all else fails what do you have to lose.

I figure...I can't have any expectation...even if I say what I want or need...That's just a little example. So, I do for me, no expectation, and I guess I don't have to live up to anyone else's cause if I disappoint them. Well, it's not my feelings, I don't own them.

Ooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh, Rin ..... you better not let LA hear you talking like this! You are going to get sent to the corner!

Aren't we both learning to state our feelings? Share and be honest? If H doesn't do something he says he'll do, then you state how you feel. "Oh, I'm disappointed, I was really looking forward to that today."

You can have expecations, and so can others. Your reaction to someone disappointing you, or not living up to your expectations, is all yours. You own it, and it's ok to be disappointed. Your reaction to other's expecations of you is also all yours. Would you let someone expect you to be able to fly, or would you tell them that's an unrealistic expectation?


How do you feel when you don't live up to someone else's expectations? Does that answer your "payoff" question?



Now, on what you quoted from me, I was talking about Self-care -- totally different from expectations. If our H's can't or won't fill our LB's right now ... (remember: right now, temporary) ... and we've chosen to work through this stage of our marriage to try to build something better, then we can still provide some of that care for ourselves.

It doesn't mean we don't acknowledge or speak our feelings about it.


That's my take on it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> What do you think?

Ack ... you're all too fast for me! There's a ton of responses already before I could get mine out....


Glad LA didn't send you to the corner..... she's so good to us! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, I live in a round room...no corners...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Wow, so much to say...first, I really apprecated all the insights on expectation...H said something tonight before I left to bring the sitter home...H was picking with my about a kiss (he kept sticking his tongue out to lick me...H wanted a goodbye kiss...something we always TRY to do). I said "You sure are expecting alot!" Joking with him, he in turn said "set your expectations high and hope that you get somewhere in the middle." I replies with "don't have any at all and you never get disappointed." I heard him, should have asked what he meant but babysitter was waiting. All in good humor...I've got to do a hit and run when I can...so, I left, came back, and we talked about the evening...

I mentioned I was uncomfortable (but it wasn't uncomfortable...I was peaceful, weird)until so and so left, but he kept looking at me, sizing me up, she was cool. we just met them through another F of H's. H apologized for even mentioning introducting 3 party, said I may not have felt uncomfortable. I said no, that didn't bother me, as a matter of fact, I didn't get a chance to suggest all of us getting together with our kids and hanging out. He said that was cool.

One...he said something to me the other day, still would rather not mention, I took that on myself...I didn't want him to feel like he couldn't talk to me in the future again! (He'd rather not say anything!) You can't handle the truth disease! It's a strange one it causes disillusions, lieing by omission, etc...have you heard of it? LOL
Two...I can and will handle the situation with guy and girl on my own. I ignored comments from him, and made a point to give no sign on interest. When they left, I opened up and had fun. My choice, and I feel like I did well.

Third...I did a wonderful job of not judging, what other people want/do/whatever is their own...I'm not backing down from where I stand...point blank. H saw that tonight!

MOF, They, including me made five, were talking about wilder days and a comment was passed about a fun-loving, off the wall thing I did at a friend's B-day party. (I changed my shirt in the bar with my back to everyone, because a friend of mine poured beer down mine.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> No big deal in my eyes, (I would perfer no comments on this) or H's eyes. It was funny to all of our friends. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I very calmly said I reformed! I had been known to get wild at times, and I still would like to in the future, but making sure that I give myself the credit, respect, and love that I deserve at the same time.

I guess this post is more for me, figure if I write down what I have in mind, it will become clearer in my mind. I am very happy with my behavior tonight, only had one beer, not unusual. I didn't own anybody else's stuff, I was comfortable with self, and I had fun! What more could I have asked for? OH, H said something...a short joke about me...use to them and they don't bother me...I'll joke about it too...anyway, H was picking on me and laughing back, I said watch it, your love bank's pretty low. Drive-by! We all laughed some more...they were joking about kicking each other under the table by accident...I said "Don't worry about me...my feet don't even touch the floor!" It's true, with one foot under my leg, I had at least a foot before my feet would touch the floor! I got everyone to laugh on that note! I'm 4'11", what can you expect! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I had a really good time, considering date night seems to be turning back into, let's go out with our friends night! That way their no UA, avoidance! I did said before we left the house, "Since when did date night become let's go ride with our friends?" H wasn't happy about that facial expressions and body language said it all. I did have a tone when I say it, noticed it and spoke without it afterwards. NO comments or anything.

Ow, OOOOOWWwwwwwwwwww! Guess what I did, okay! I stopped myself in the middle of a sentence to choose a different word! :::you can bow before me later!::: LMAO

Yeap! I was going to say: had I known...caught myself and said had I remembered...that one word made a huge difference...I saw the look on H's face...with that one word it changed from him to me!

Kudos to me, yes, I'm patting my back now! :::thump, thump, thump::: DID you hear it? HUH? Listen again! LOL

I needed tonight...I really amaze myself sometimes! :::said with a smirk on her cute little face::: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Well, guys, have a blessed day! Yeap, I know now I'm blessed just having you guys. I'll reply to individual post later...I just had to share with you guys/gals! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mom, Dad, you're little girl is growing up! LOL Have a good night!

Rinderella,

I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong. So here it goes. I was wrong.

I rethought my position about the whole dating site thing.

I don't think I would want my FWW to stop because I was going to do it. I would want her to stop because she wanted too. It wouldn't mean much if I thought it was just becuase I was ready to hurt her.

I was also thinking about the expectations thing.

Here is what I think.

Expectations vs Unrealistic Expectations.

You cannot expect someone to do what you do because they might not be capable.

You also shouldn't expect something from someone that hasn't given you a past reason to expect it from them.

So if you expect someone to do something they are not capable of, or given you a reason to think you should expect it, then it is unreasonable.

You may hope or want them to do it but if they have never in the past you really shouldn't expect it to be any different today.

Conversely if you have done it and are capable of it then of course they expect it.

Kinda like Carl Marx's true theory of communism.

Take from each according to their ability and give to each according to their needs.

Well, you did do a lot of thinking on it. It makes a lot more sense, and I did like you're example of your friend moving; howeve, I did think it was unfair that you excluded info before I HAD to answer! LOL Just picking on you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I posted the lunchtime Pa behavior on SHMI's thread!


Have a blessed, wonderful, super happy weekend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

But you answered yes didn't you.

I saw your post I posted back.

That is why I have been so FUBAR'D during this process.

Based on my FWW's past behaviour I really should have expected everything that has happened up until this point.

I had unrealistic expectations that she would actually take part in dealing with the consequences of her actions when she has never done that before.

Usually if there are consequences I deal with them. Why would the A be any different?

Stupid Me. LOL.

So, any thoughts on how things went on how my lunch went with my H? I know what got him, when I TM ed him "I said your choice!"

He never asks how my day went, I always have to give the info, but Lord knows, I hear about his. Do you think it would by a wise idea if I asked him how he's doing in detachment. My thinking is NO! Don't be concerned with anything in regards to him, just concentrate on me! See when we went to sleep last night, we were both in a good mood! I have a feeling he wanted SF but I wasn't in the mood and I sure wasn't going to start it.

Oh, I liked that Grief/TEAR. I can see H going through that, he)), I have!

Basically, I'm making it a point to stay upbeat and happy. Not neccessaly happy on the outside but happy on the inside, and that kills him when I don't "LOOK" happy.

Did I mention I asked him how he was doing in the middle of the conversation at lunch and he said "FINE!" I said well, it appear like you are uncomfortable, insure, and unhappy! No comment! I can tell you this, he was trying HARD to turn things around on me! To pull me into him!

I'm so proud I didn't fall, I stood firm on my ground! I feel like it was a huge BABYstep!

ROTFLMAO!

I swear to god we are married to the same person. LOL.

My FWW now occasionally asks a a cursory gesture. Then when I do try to talk. I get interupted or she doesn't actively listen. Sometimes she interupts me to tell me something she forgot to tell me and then the conversation is over.

This happened a week ago. I was telling her I was not happy with my Job. A WEEK LATER she asked me about it.

I would stop asking how he is doing as much.

Try to keep it light for a while. You were doing that before.

Remember he needs to walk by your side. Don't try to drag him along. When he falls behind this is a great time to take a breather.


Same with my FWW. Feed me a crap sandwich and expect a smile. LOL. Hey what kinda crap did you use this time? It doesn't seem to be the same as I usaully get. Did you use something different? LOL.

See now when she brings the crap sandwiches around I politely decline eating them and looking happy.

Now I don't eat them and I am happy.

Plus who the heck can look happy all the time. I got a job, two kids, bills, problems, and a wife that cheated on me.

It's a miracle sometimes I am ever able to crack a smile.

But I do because it makes people wonder what I am up to.

EXACTLY! RMFAO, OMG!


Yeah, I'm going to do exactly that. LOL Keep it light, no R talk, stay positive, and fosuced on me! Should be easy this weekend, he's working, tonight we're going to the N's, Sat. going out with some friends, and Sun. H wanted to go ride with some other friends. I told him that we didn't have a babysitter for Sun., so he would have to go by himself if he got off work early. That way, I get some time to myself! I'm starting to feel smoothed, lunch almost everyday since D-day. Space, that what I need! Last weekend like to have killed me with him being off, around the house, and not doing a thing!

Oh, H keeps talking about a get away. I told him today if he wants it, plan it, and I'll try to get off to go. We both know, being Med to the same person that won't happen!

Thinking of you...appreciated the link to coping.org.

LA

Thanks LA-UW!

A few thought I want to run by you in a minute...
First, Ibrought the boys to the library yesterday. They didn't want any books, but I got some! I'm reading Naomi Judd's "Naomi's Breakthough Guide." I think Hl's read it because of his sig. line. It's proving to be very interesting. My good N (DJ to the other one, but had to make a difference between the two, maybe right and left will be better), my right N wants to read it after.

It's bring a lot to mind, a lot of reinforcement from what you've shared with me, and some of the others. I also picked up one of the "Chicken Soup for the SOul," for those not so good days that I need a lift. I got a few others too, I'll share that with you later.

So, concern that I'm having, I've mentioned my sleeping problem. Well, I'm up evert 45 mins to an hour now. I don't syat up long most of the time, and I haven't been able to remember if I have been dreaming. I thought that if I could remember it might be a clue. Well, last night and today, I've been able to remember what I'm thinking/dreaming when I wake up. I've had a motorcycle accident that only I was involved in, my car needed repair, was fixed and I went to pull into the drive-way, and the transmission fell out, the phone's #3 button wouldn't work, the house phone was broke for some reason, it was problem after problem!

Recently I have asked God to take care of the things I have no control over, like last night, and again today. I also asked him to help me with my sleeping problem earlier today. The last dream about was a little while ago. It was mentioned earlier in the book I'm reading about PTSD, which I was diagosed with years ago. I was doing really well, but a little before D-day, I think I'm not sure. Now I sleep really crappy, and I feel like I'm going all the time even in my sleep. I can remember in my dream, my mom and DH are trying to tell me what to do.

So, I'm thinking that the sleeping issue is part of the PTSD. I'll also figured out that as a child I would withdraw/flight when I was punish. I would go to my room or anywhere it that wasn't available and make myself as invisible as I could. I would look for a sign for whoever and then I would come out of hiding!

My first memory is of my mom anger, mad, unhappy with me, not sure if she was yelling because I wouldn't drink my milk. I was two or three, not sure, and my parents were still together. I remeber my dad was trying to make her stop trying to force my to drink it. Needless to say, she was mad with him too, but I didn't have to drink the milk. I hate milk, it has to be with cereal for me or used in cooking.

So, I withdraw or leave the whatever as an adult until things are okay again. I'm thinking that my dreams are not safe to me, and getting out og the bed is my withdrawal/flight response until things are okay or I have to choice but return. It's just an idea, one that I've gotten with the help of the information from this book I'm reading. There's alot of stuff that's shocking to me, stuff that makes great sense, and it's really got me thinking.

I also know that I'm constantily looking for approval, acceptance, affection, from other people because I lacked that as a child. I understand why you asked if I treated my kids the way I wanted to be treated. I do, I always wanted my parents attention, especially my mom's, she was always reading some romance novel (I hate romance novels!). I would ask for her to play a game with me or something and she never have time. I spend time with my boys, I do make it a point. So, Yes, I do treat my boys the way I wanted to be treated. That's the main reason why I wanted a second child, I never wanted the first to feel alone like I did growing up. I always wanted them to have each other if they didn't have anyone else.

Well, that's just some of the things I have been thinking. I just wanted to run them pass you and see what you thought. I would also like to go back through my posts and find the ones where you have mentioned what me strenghts are. I can see the value of knowing them now, and what I need to do with them.

The bigger picture is developing for me. I'm really starting to see clearly why everyone has given the advice that ya'll have. It's really making sense, standing still, everything! It's just a matter of what I do from here!

I'll write more later...forgiveness...emotions...childhood...there's so many things floating around in my head about me! yeap, ME, not H or the M. I figure that will come...

Okay, DH and I had a wonderful weekend. yesterday was soooo wonderful. RC time on the bike, riding with some friends...we spent the whole day out and the kids stayed with some of the kid's parents that we were with. They got to swim and just had a great time.

Even the wonderfulthree page front, one page back letter from the N, didn't even bother me. She still thinks that I blame her for my M. Good to know that she thinks she has that much power to affect my life. She referred to herself several times as "the stupid B***ch across the road, and called me one in not so many words. The amount of profanity in the letter was unreal, DH even commented on it. Said she was warned about me from my so called lond time friends that I was a bad person before she let us in her life. No sure who she could be referring to, and it doesn't matter.

Oh, I'm not allowed at her house until I apologize to her for blaming her for my problems, and she's glad that I had shown my true colors. Also, I need to look up the word friendship because I don't know what it means. She even said that she was sorry that this letter was hurting my feeling, once again, I'm glad that she thinks she has that much power.

I told DH, there's nothing we can do about this. She's going to think and believer whatever she wants to regardless of what we say or do. DH feels that her H should know what's going on and wants to scan the letter and e-mail if to him. The poor man's already on a lease and is not allowed (yes, that's right) to do anything according to DH. She has managed to run all of his friends away. I don't think that DH needs to do anything, but I can't control him. I'm not letting this toxic person affect my life. Moreso than anything, I feel sorry for her, matter of fact, the night before DH and I were laying in bed. I just finished my prayers and I asked DH if he had prayed for her, DH said "no". I said that was okay because I got her, what more can I do! The thing is DH is really seeing what she has been doing for the past two years. Part of our M problems, but wasn't seen until recently. I didn't know that she was trying to start trouble with DH and I. No, wonder why he would always say "I don't know what the problem is between you and N but ya'll need to fix it." This always throw me for a loop!

I do have to say that I'm glad that it come to the surface because DH and I are doing wonderful. DH said in a conversation last night, that he's the one responsible for his choices (referring to the A) and that N had no part in the matter. It's sad but he's really seeing how his past actions are affecting not just our M. I could hear the sincereity in his voice, almost sad, regretful! Oh, Regretful! WOW! BAM!

It's just sad that the kids, her five and out two, will be affected by this. My OS was talking to the baby and one of the others (we were boiling shrimp and crabs at the ON's.) and when she saw the interaction, she made all of the kids go in the house. How do you do that to kids? I mean if she's mad at me, that's find but don't hurt the kids in the process!

Well, I'm not sure if you can tell but I've learned alot, and passing on my knowledge to DH. Just in talking, not teaching! As a matter of fact, we were talking about strenghts and DH said that one of mine was the fact that I was so intelligent! WOW! DH said that I wasn't afraid to use what I know and if I thought I can do it, I will at least try. If I get to a point that I can't go any further, I'll stop and ask questions.

Talk about feeling on top of the world! Looking back, I can see a world of changes in my life over the past few months, not just me! There's no doubt in my mind that DH and I will be okay! I may not see where's he's trying, and if he's working on self, then, I'm not going to "see."

I share with him exciting things I'm learning from the books that I read and the friends I've made here. I really been sharing info about control and owning, with the conversations we've had this weekend, I'm wondering what he's been absorbing. Well, time will tell. I like the track I'm on. We're having some good days right now, and the bad days that are so come will be a result of change too. Change that we are both trying to get comfortable with.

Oh, remember the lights, DH was suppose to put up! We were tlaking and he looked over at the lights sitting on the floor. He thought his deadline had ran out, but I had to tell him, no we negotiated for Monday. we both laughted so hard. I told him I was going to have to use that again in the future if we both got that good of a laugh out of it! So, tonight, we'll see, DH is suppose to get the new lights up in the living room!

To top things off, on my way to work this morning, was a beautiful, wonderous, rainbow! I called Dh and asked if he saw it, he did, and I said what a gorgeous way to start out a beautiful day!

After having spoken to DH at lunch, I think that Dh has decided to leave the whole mess with the N alone. I asked him this: If you scam the letter and send it to N's H, do you think that it would appear that you are trying to cause problems in their M? If you turned the situation around and it was you what would you think? Do you think the N's H is intellegent enough to know what type of situation he's in without your help?

DH said he thinks the best thing would be to leave it alone. So, we're both done with it! I think it's for the best. I did tell DH whatever he wanted to do was up to him but I thought it would be best if he looked at the situation as a whole.

I'm feeling pretty good about it!

Hi Rin,
Sounds like things are going well. Yeah, I'd leave the N thing alone...sounds like she is trying to get a reaction out of you. And it seems she is way too involved in your life. You sure she doesn't have a "thing" for your H? The farther he is from her the better!

I'm positive she does and I explained to H that she's probably in withdrawal.

Think about two girls in school and a guy...both like the guy a WHOLE lot...guy picks girl #1...girl#2 still likes guy and still hopes she gets him, so who is she going to lash out at? Girl #1! That me...she's been trying to start trouble between DH and I...others have even said they think she's got a "thing" for him...but I was the first to bring it out...I just sat back and waited...DH didn't have anything for her...it's a one-sided EA and she's the scorned one! She's got mad at DH because "he was protecting me"...ON said "He should that his wife!" She doesn't talk to ON much now either! LOL

Oh, I wanted to run this by you guys. I'm refilling my last AD script today. I've considered after I finish this one asking the DR. to rewrite the script but not taking them anymore. I have a goal to one day get off of them. I'm only taking 5mg and at the worst time I was on ten. I'm starting to feel alot of inner peace and learning how to deal with things better, learning to speak my mind, and tons of other things to deal with everyday life. Even pre-A, I felt like I was losing my mind, but I'm thinking that I would like to try to get off of them in a month or two. Any thoughts on the idea? I know there are many of you have had to be on AD's and had to have gotten off of them. When did you decide you should? Any information would help!