Okay, I've got a question for the lot of you, have you notice any patterns to my behavior or anything that I may need a little tough love on?

((((HB!!!))))

I am SOOOO with you on ADL...my GOSH...barefeet at 2am to get to their room for a bad dream...and in their crying, sleepy eyes, here comes one of us large adults, lumbering in, suddenly hopping up and down and swearing a blue streak in the dark...

Ahhhh, those were the days.

LOL

Now...waaaay too much comic book info...really...I'm embarrassed to have bonded with you.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Rin,

Sarcasm is P/A behavior, I believe...when you're saying the opposite in your head...DJing there...and putting that twisted edge, a put down in the guise of a joke.

I believe if you eliminate all DJs, you won't have any remaining P/A behavior...and that includes not agreeing to something you don't agree with--or sacrificing or doing anything you'll resent.

You still read your WH a lot...body language, tone, words--whole package. Pretend you're blind...only have his words, sans tone, even...that's listening respectfully.

P/A behaviors come from fear...so reading a person, mindreading, assuming are all part and parcel of feeling powerfully protected from being controlled...when you can't be protected, and you can't be controlled.

Why don't you post each time you called your WH on his P/A behavior?

When he is being honest with you (and this is still difficult, I found out, for me, too), deeply appreciate the honesty and do not judge the belief...his fogged out belief at the time IS his...he wanted both of you...you believe very differently...that he shouldn't have wanted anyone but you...his belief is saying he knows he did that...not lying...oh, I was only in it for the admiration, blah, blah...she pursued me...He's honest. Honor the honesty and respect he can believe very differently than you...not about you, you're not the cause and you are not degraded or changed in anyway by his belief.

And beliefs change, don't they?

Coming up on one real month of no contact...time, Rin...time.

LA

I'm just trying to stay sane, stay still, patient, focused on me...

I'm just trying to stay sane, stay still, patient, focused on me...


Amazing how that tiny, simple, little sentence can take SOOOOOOO much work to learn and accomplish!

I think you're doing great, and taking great steps!

Amen! I'm just thanking God for being here, right here!

Good Morning! I hope everyone is well this morning!

well, H and I had a talk last night! I started it by asking if it made him uncomfortable that I was reading alot. I have been getting dirty looks and eye rolls from him. DH said yes, because I had said at one point that all the time that he spend on the computer (looking at porn) was affecting us. I asked if my reading was disrespectful to him because I felt him looking at porn was disrespectful to me. H replied yes, because he felt that I was reading male bashing books.

With that I had to ask him if he knew what my intent for reading was. He said No, so I explained that I can't change him, it take two to work on a M, and the only thing I could do anything about was me. I was changing my behavior to be true to myself, in order to be a better mother, wife, lover, and friend. That my reading was purely about me and not about him that I figured that if I changed the things that I realize was my part in the M that things would be better. I told him how much I loved him, respected him, admired him, and that I thought that my behavior sometimes did not reflect what I thought. DH said that he could see that I was trying to apply what I've been reading in our conversations and that what you sometimes read in books can't be applied to real world situation. that what I'm learning some people may not understand what I'm trying to do and that sometimes when I talk to him he doesn't have an answer or can't response at the time that he needs to process what I'm saying. DH said that he needs to have time to process in info and then get back to me. Thing is he doesn't get back to me.

He said that he's really unhappy about the "Living with a Passive Agressive Man" book and asked how was that going to help me with my PA behavior. I said that I can't not idenitfy all of my PA behavior without the help of someone else and since he doesn't understand the behavior I can't rely on him to point this out. So, if I learn something from this book that helps me out then I feel I better off because I have realized that I do mother, which in reality is a form of control. I explained that PA behavior is a dance between two people (yes, I felt I have to explain/teach some background info) and it doesn't matter who started it but I learned the behavior fro my SD. I asked if he remembered my SD trying to control me six hours away from home, and not speaking to me for over a month.

I explained that the silent treatment, trying to control, manipulation, and intentional trying to hurt your spouse was all examples of PA behavior. I gave examples of when I have done this. DH asked what was it with me and groups of people, he said that after awhile he can see that I'm ready to go and that other can tell this from my body langauage. I said that I do get uncomfortable in groups. I wasn't raised around a lot of people, usually it was my mom, SD, and me. I usually spent hours in my room entertaining myself because when I asked to do something with my mom, she didn't have time or was busy. I said that's one on the things I working on and we talked about the boy's b-day party. I said that I felt that I had to be the hostress and had to cater to all the people that were present. DH said that I didn't need to serve (that was an important word for me)these people that they had been to the house before and his rule is he'll show you where things are the first time you come over but after that you're on your own. Most of these people had been to the house before and that I need to learn to relax and enjoy their company.

I think we had a good conversation. It was very pleasant and he even offered examples, for instance with the N. As you all saw from the letter, she does not have alot of education. He said that he felt the whole thing between the two of us was just miscommunication. He said that he felt I may have used some words that she may not has understood, like resentful or was close-minded.

Well, I'll have to finish the details later! I need to get some work done!

Rin,

"DH said that he needs to have time to process in info and then get back to me. Thing is he doesn't get back to me."

Know what I experienced, choosing to believe my DH would get back to me? Abandonment. That's me...feeling left hanging...wanting answers now...our MC turned back to DH when I said this and said, "So what time did you give her to get back with her?"

Whoa. Simple and effective. "I have to think about that" becomes "I have to think about that. Why don't we talk tomorrow night at 8pm and I'll share my thoughts?"

Huge difference. Same with conflicts...when sharing becomes intense...okay to say, "I'm really overly emotional right now. I want to continue this and will pick up in two hours...or tomorrow night at ____; or this weekend at ____time."

Time and place help a lot. Then it isn't endless...if you know when someone will be back, you know they're COMING back.

See, this feeling abandoned isn't a DJ...it's an automatic fear...not an assumption. That's how many times, I believed DH, and then measured the time passing and he didn't respond as he promised. I kept thinking I was hurt about broken promises...until I realized, I was hurt from the start...that feeling of abandonment happens right away.

Good to know!

And look how beautifully what you may have previously felt an attack, you took as an opening to share!! To own!! And you did...and it was pleasant...omygosh...hold that. Hug it to you...that's you, Rin...all the way.

And look at your DH...he said he felt fearful, judged...and why he felt that...great sharing there, too!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Proud to know you, woman!

LA

Okay, Dh said that people need to sometimes talk about meaningless things and that he hasn't enjoyed a conversation with me in awhile. I explained that I have felt empty when talking with him. He said that he was sorry. I explained that I would like for him to understand that I'm not trying to teach him anything when I talk about what I've read, it's just that I'm excited about what I'm learning and realizing.

I guess I just need to keep my excitment to myself. I get the sense that DH is intimidated or fearful of my new knowledge, because I said, when he mentioned that he felt it was taking time away from us, okay, I understand, I can read before you get home, I still got a dirty look. Before going to sleep, after talking about how we did not enjoy the conversation recently, DH said that he has been staying away from me because of the pinkeye. And I mentioned that I had been craving intimacy, affection, and I felt the distance between us.

I can say honestly that I have not enjoyed the last two Sf sessions that we had which was over a week ago maybe a week and a half.

I didn't intend for the conversation to go on like it did but DH appreantly was in the mood to talk.
At one point, he said that he doesn't like not following through with things he says he's going to do but sometimes life gets in the way. That's fine that he thinks that, but me perceptive is that he more often procastinates because he's sitting around or one of those I agreed to do it but didn't REALLY want to do it, kind of thing. No, I didn't say anything, no refuting.

I did tell him I was having the hardest time not interrupting when he speaks, and asked that he please bare with me, because I'm trying really hard to work on that.

I think we actually only talked for about an hour, maybe a little more.

Okay so if I can't talk to him about what I'm learning and share my excitment, my thoughts and ideas on a subject then what?

Oh, and the last important thing I want to mention to you guys/gals is that I did tell him that I wanted to be his equal.

Okay, I'm ready for anything you have for me. LOL let me have it. Do you see any PA behavior in these two posts? I saw that he didn't want to talk about him that he turned things around to me and how I am around other people. But that was fine, I wanted him to know that if I was ready to leave somewhere's that he didn't have to leave just becasue I wanted to. I can leave on my own! I didn't say this but we can take two vehicles if we go someplace, that way when I'm ready to leave I can or vice versus (it's usually me). DH grew up around tons of people his whole life, I'm not use to that! I like my time to myself!

Oh, LA I just saw your post I read it and get back to you! Thanks in advance for the reply.

Abandonment, yes, that's the empty feeling that I get after a conversation with DH. The same feeling I got when I needed my mom to stay with me one night (she had to go to work) becasue I was scared that night. Abandoned, left to be fearful and fend for myself! Ah, what a great feeling! She left and I poured my eyes out. I was maybe 10 or 11 at the time. I think that was the worst I've ever felt this.

The thought did cross me mind last night about his broken promises...saying he'll do something and not doing it. Take for example the movie thing a while back...we still haven't gone and he did mention one time not to long ago that he would prefer to watch a movie in the comfort of his home! That's fine, I won't ask again, but I will bring the kids.


OMG, DH went take a shower, and I was sitting on the sofa, going "omygosh, I'm nervous inside, did I really say all that stuff?" LOL I'm still I guess in shock and nervous about it, wondering what do I do with the info I have now.
ANother wierd thing is I don't feel good or bad about the conversation, it was just a conversation. I didn't feel empty/abandoned or fullfilled! I really didn't feel anything, but I am thoughtful of it!

Our own P/A behaviors...here's one:

Your DH says, "I want to have meaningless conversation with you. I miss it."

And you go to the extreme:

"I guess I just need to keep my excitment to myself."

And DJ...don't be mislead that this feeling, this sense, isn't your old self sneaking in...: "I get the sense that DH is intimidated or fearful of my new knowledge,"

And to underline his view being dictating your actions (by your choice)..."

"Okay so if I can't talk to him about what I'm learning and share my excitment, my thoughts and ideas on a subject then what?"

This goes from passive agreement to aggressive shoving your choice onto his statement...his cause...can you see this? This is NOT huge...I'm pointing it out because often, when you feel thwarted by your DH, part of this is you doing this to you...without even seeing it. Share your excitement anyway. Make room to listen and repeat...to enjoy and hear...nothing he says dictates your choices...only you do...and you're funny and interesting, as is...he misses that...doesn't mean you're not giving it...that part you stepped over, huh? Don't.

"I still got a dirty look." Do you want to read looks or ask or not know until he speaks?

"Before going to sleep, after talking about how we did not enjoy the conversation recently, DH said that he has been staying away from me because of the pinkeye." Good to know.

"I didn't intend for the conversation to go on like it did but DH appreantly was in the mood to talk." What do you mean you didn't intend?

"At one point, he said that he doesn't like not following through with things he says he's going to do but sometimes life gets in the way." That's his statement, his truth...

and you thought:

"That's fine that he thinks that, but me perceptive is that he more often procastinates because he's sitting around or one of those I agreed to do it but didn't REALLY want to do it, kind of thing."

Perception or DJ? My DH would say, "I hate that I procrastinate." That acknowledged he did sit around and procrasinate. Didn't change him doing it then. Was a step...not me Djing. He also had said he wanted to be able to say No to my requests, but couldn't get past the fear.

"No, I didn't say anything, no refuting." Just in your head, huh?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I did tell him I was having the hardest time not interrupting when he speaks, and asked that he please bare with me, because I'm trying really hard to work on that."

Terrific. I did this, also. I was astonished how much I interrupted without even noticing...and that permission was difficult to revoke.

"Oh, and the last important thing I want to mention to you guys/gals is that I did tell him that I wanted to be his equal."

You already are his equal...partners, humans...no wanting about. Maybe you meant you were working on knowing this and treating him as an equal?

"I saw that he didn't want to talk about him that he turned things around to me and how I am around other people." DJ, not P/A behavior to me...and I'm looking at what you're doing...not him...he could have been really voicing a deep concern...instead of resenting, he was stating. Great to know!

LA

So, this would be reactive, if I chose to keep my excitment to myself? Which if I understand correctly is me doing but I have pushed it off as his?


I really didn't intend anything other then to ask about his thoughts on my reading. The rest of the conversation was a bonus, and I'm happy I got the bonus!


You got it, DJs, all in my head. All to often I find that I project my thoughts of what people think onto them and that's the reality. Nope, I don't even ask what they really think, becasue this was done to me as a child. I would be asked, really told what had happened and what I think, just like DH and N did. I need to work on "it is what it is," "don't read into things like body language, tone, etc." I would have to think that is more disrespectful then verbalizing the DJ. Say a form of prejudiciness and negative thoughts not hurting anyone else except me. Me, being self destructive in a way, holding myself back from moving forward? YES, I can see this.


Knowing and treating him as a equal! I did inform him that in the past I did look down on him because I felt I had to do everything even when he was around, like I somehow knew better. At one point, I did do everything because he was always working either out of state, on a rig in the Gulf, or just not home as a result of work. It just didn't stop for me when he got a job that he was home every night.

I think that I need to work on trusting him, because I don't trust what comes out of his mouth. Lying by omission...I have a deep passion for the truth and a major pet peeve for lying outright. This runs deep beginning in childhood. I feel like I've been lied to for so long that I don't know what to believe. This is the reason why I read into things trying to find the truth. What I'm trying desperately to change is:

I've been betrayed my DH but I'm letting past influences/experiences guide me, basically telling myself "You can't trust anything you see or hear! Nothing's real!" Instead of it is what it is! Protection from intimacy, from fear of being hurt...I know...now is that half the battle? I don't know! I don't trust, I did at one point (somewhere along the way) but I was betrayed. I want to trust but I don't have a clue how to get there right now! Where's the happy balance between blind trust and no trust at all?

any thoughts? I think LA made some great points.

This is all me...DH said one time that I talked to much...what did I do...reacted and stopped talking! GO ME, huh? It's not just info...I internalize it...I'm doing this...I see it!

This is one that going to bit me...plenty before I learn this one...not an easy task!

Rin,

Focus is a little shot today. LOL.

So the book thing went over like a lead balloon.

So you ask "Do you know why I am reading so much?"

Sorry but that was a loaded question.

IMHO and you know I like you but that was not a fair thing to do.

In the end it would make ME feel like you were showing me what I should be doing.

The light conversation is necessary also. I agree with your DH. With the understanding that there still needs to be the meat and potato's conversations. LOL.

I honestly think there is a push pull going on here.

If he is PA he is going to avoid that like the plague.

In my Sitch my FWW sees nothing wrong with herself. She doesn't see her shifting standards and boundries as a problem.

She compartmentalizes everything she has done into a tidy compartment called "the past" everything she does wrong goes in there. No need talking about it or making amends for it.

Life has changed. My reality has changed. Your reality is changing as well.

Re invest in that new reality. Come to terms with it. Your reality right now is what your H is willing to commit to doing. What he is willing to work on etc.

Invest in that reality. Not the perfect M. As he starts changing invest in the new reality then. Each step he makes you take with him and then invest in that. Each step he takes backwards you accept or move on. You cannot change him or his reality.

All you can do is change yourself. Maybe he will like the new you so much he will start trying to catch up.

Again if it doesn't make sense I have no focus today.

What is it you haven't owned? He stated an opinion...he wanted to have meaningless conversation...you reacted to that and said, Now what do I do?

He stated an opinion. His opinion. Where's an action for you in that opinion?

I don't do degrees with DJs...because I couldn't eliminate them until I did stop them...all the way to my belief system. I think realizing how abusive I was is what gave me that will to eliminate them entirely...why it hurt so deeply for HL and SP to say I was DJing HL...we judge actions, not intent...no mindreading...I did that to stop being abusive with my DJs, to quench my thirst to live in respect and truth...judging which level of DJ is worse or better...aloud, just in mind, just in heart...just in inclination....I don't know. I couldn't do that. They were pervasive, insiduous and constant in me. I don't know for you. My rule would be if it's your desire to not judge, then don't judge judging...do or don't.

Until you get it really well, then maybe levels do come into play. I don't know. I'm still learning.

And yes...this was how we were taught...what we learned...before we knew we had a choice on how to act, what to think, perceive and believe...absolutely. No bash here, Rin. I am your sister in this, I promise.

I don't want you to trust what comes out of his mouth...I'm urging you to respect as his own. May come out, still his.

Change your perspective on the being lied to for so long...because that's a weight you don't have to carry. Before WH, there were others, lying by omission...all the way back...and rationally, think to when you were old enough to ask questions, maybe two or three or four...your folks didn't explain everything in they knew to you then, did they? You were lied to by omission even then...not because of their choice or yours...circumstances. Doing their best with what they knew...and no, explaining to you at that age all that they knew? Age appropriate is what they went with...and now that we're adults, tough to draw those lines...why I keep breaking down what we share, in order to respect our code, what we tell. Thoughts, feelings, beliefs...

Takes time...

When you desperately, passionately want the truth...check yourself. Are you telling yourself the whole truth? Is your focus consumed in someone else, running away from yourself? Signals...these are signals...find what they represent.

Cognizant trust comes slowly...a whole new way of trusting...not blindly and not at all...that 90 degrees in between. You'll get there. Trust yourself enough to get there, 'k?

This is not ALL about you...this you I'm talkin' too. There's a difference.

LA

Okay, I had this great post this morning and lost it so here I am again.

LA-I see what you are saying about degrees...and really I'd like to keep it a black and white issue...you either do or you done. Besides, I need to stop with the extremes, and I see looking at the degrees of DJing fits into that.

"I don't want you to trust what comes out of his mouth...I'm urging you to respect as his own. May come out, still his."

Okay...I substituted the word believe for trust and that solved that for me...hopper not on at the time...sorry!

Regarding the lies of omissions...okay as a child I get that, I do it to me son...as far as FWH, it wouldn't be a lie to him it's his reality...It's what he believed/believes...okay!

Cognizant trust? Am I going to have to look that up or if I ask nicely with an innocent grin would you please explain a little more what you mean be it? LOL

Oh, I wanted to say that I haven't to date read you bashing me...I like the honest truth, and I feel it's in a loving and respectful way. I'm not sure what happen with HL and SP, and I think I like it that way. I also see that you, my dear, caring woman...are often in demand. How does that make you feel?

HL- This is the only thing I'm concerned about with this statement: "All you can do is change yourself. Maybe he will like the new you so much he will start trying to catch up."

THe first part, no problem! The second, well, I think there's a thin line between hope and expectation. I know if I hope for that I'll be setting myself up and I can't bare the hurt. So, he either likes me or he doesn't, his choice...what will be will be...

Well, It's not the post I really had in mind, but I hit the major points. HL- I wish you the best...I'll pray for you in your endeavors...mostly peace...I wish you peace...

LA-What else can I say? You're a classy little mouse! LOL

HL- This is the only thing I'm concerned about with this statement: "All you can do is change yourself. Maybe he will like the new you so much he will start trying to catch up."

THe first part, no problem! The second, well, I think there's a thin line between hope and expectation. I know if I hope for that I'll be setting myself up and I can't bare the hurt. So, he either likes me or he doesn't, his choice...what will be will be...


I think that HL's saying that your H will have no choice, since you are so darn lovable and becoming more so every day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He won't be able to resist!!

Nothing wrong with a little self-appreciation. No excessive expectations in that. So take a compliment, girl!!


Oh, wait ... HL is the Star Wars Junkie ... does that mean I should have said "Resistance is futile."? Or is that Star Trek? I get so confused .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oe, compliment! Awe, I didn't see that one! Thanks, AmI!

Can I click my heels three times with that as I repeat "I'm the bomb! I'm the bomb! I'm the BOMB!"

I'm sure I can learn a thing or two in that area from HL. LOL

How are you anyway AmI? I'll check your T for an update later! LOL

Thanks, I needed that one!

Cognizant trust...do you mean when I can tell someone is being sincere?

Oh, I'm hearing myself talk in my head (all day yesterday) negative DJs...I would catch myself and think no that's a DJ...stop it! I hope I understand that now...I would have to do the dance of joy if I learned that lesson! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Rin...it's a process...

Being cognizant...mental awareness...that you place trust...and others earn it...half and half...hence, cognizant trust.

It just came out of me that way. I wasn't breaking it down when I wrote it...wanted to really have impact on this...

Keeping our wishful child out of the trust issue...our expectation that we can only have a relationship if we trust one another...all that we once believed which isn't from our adult experiences...mixing our deep desire to be safe with trusting someone to make us safe...

Your awareness is part of the process, Rin...you're changing your life...retraining your brain...waking it up...taking it along in a non-judgmental way...all that working together...not perfectly...more like elbowing in, kinda clumsy, but present.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And you're thought of, loved and appreciated...all the way through...'member that, 'k?

LA

LA-Thank you from the bottom of my heart! I appreciate everything you have done, the time that you have invested it me, and the knowledge that you have shared with not only me but others.

IMO, I see that alot of the pieces are fitting together. I just need to practice holding them in place. I understand the reason to focus on me and I think I understand what the payoff is. ME!

I think that given my childhood a fine job of being successful and this process will only add to the success that I feel. I feel like I am a good person, trying to do the best that I can with what I know. By expanding upon what I know, I can only become better. I want to be better to myself, I deserve that! I want to be a better mother, wife, friend, sister, daughter, etc., they deserve that!

I have always wanted to be a good role model growing up for my HS and HB. I have always tried to do my best in hopes that they would do their best. Now, I live to be a good example/role model for my children. I want a great relationship with them now and when they're adults. I would love to have their admiration and respect, but I have to lay that foundation now. One day at a time! It's a goal, and I understand that I can only control my part. It really would be a dream come true!