Unfortunately, I found out MT had another e-mail account she had been using to contact OM. I confronted MT about it. MT insists contact was only by e-mail. While MT recognizes that any contact is a big deal, she insists they did not talk about anything important, had no phone calls or meetings.

I'm very hurt by this, but I'll survive.

Which is why she kept it a secret. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So, yes..you'll survive.

I'm not sure exactly what your recovery plan/outline entails for continued contact/false recovery.

If you don't have a plan for that I suggest that you make one.

It may be that you are jumping the gun in thinking you actually are *in* recovery at this point. It certainly sounds that way.

How are you categorizing your current status?

No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. Having to send a 4th NC letter makes a total mockery of the whole concept. She continues to engage in contact because again there are no consequences to her actions. Until she realizes you will not continue to accept this constant disrespect and humiliation; I doubt there will be any change. This does not sound like recovery to me. It sounds like continued deceit. If the roles were reversed, would your wife continue to accept such actions from you?

Noodle - I'm really not sure yet. I thought we were in recovery, but.....

I'm not sure what really to think. Still sorting through it in my mind.

I won't go into details about what MT tells me about this incident. I'll let her post that if she wants to.

Either way, my sitch is somewhere between (at worse) MT's totally manipulating me and NC never happened and (at best), this is an unfortunate relapse.

Either way, we still have some big holes to fill, most importantly, open and honest communication.

It isn't an unfortunate relapse..that much we can be certain of.

It is failure to disclose an avenue of contact that she knew about previously..and knew that you *didn't* know about.

Her back door so to speak.

It doesn't matter in the slightest what they talked about..further contact particularly after agreeing to no contact is further betrayal and the A is still active.

A second, third, fourth, etc NC letter is just redundant.

Look into false recovery..study at how people arrived there and note the similarities between their actions and yours.

Personally..if I were you I'd stop listening to the fogspeak as though it was anything else.

Maybe that has been a source of your confusion when actions are not matching assertions?

Let me ask you this..do you really believe that open and honest communication is something that is an acheivable goal while your wife is still actively having an affair?

Do you agree with the premise that she is closer to a drug addict in her decision making process than a functional adult?

If so..I urge you to put the recovery issues where they belong..in recovery..and bend your efforts *today* toward getting there. You aren't there yet.

The common denominator in false recovery stories is weakness on the part of the BS..failure to raise the standards and conditions of recovery high enough. Failure to require enough of the WS. Attempts to "meet them halfway" or other seemingly altruistic but actually fear based attempts to hang on to a half committed partner result in further disrespect for the BS.

Unfortunate relapse? Having a hidden e-mail account to communicate with the OP sounds a bit more devious than that, IMO.

A NC letter by your WS is meaningless unless she understands the symbolism behind it. It's evident that she clearly doesn't. If I was you, I wouldn't be insisting on one at this time, but concentrating on dealing with why she found it so easy to break three times.

Bryan - I agree a 4th NC letter is not a good thing. MT wanted to send the last 2, so I didn't stop her. If the sitch were reversed I don't think MT would accept, but I can't answer for her.

What would you suggest I do to not accept this behavior? Plan D? It's not like when I found out, I just smiled and said MT I think this is fine.

Noodle - Like I said, maybe its more than an unfortunate relapse.

I do believe open and honest communication is possible while an A continues. Possible but not probable.

I don't think I'm demonstrating weakness. I can't make MT do something, I can't control her. I believe for the most part her intentions are good and many times she tries very hard. She just seems to lack some follow through on things. But I'm open to suggestions as to how to not be weak. I don't have a fear based desire to hang on to half a committed partner.

MIM - Agree, I'm trying to get to why it was easy for MT to break NC again.

Open and honest?

From your end maybe.

Not from a person who is acting from a very limited seek pleasure/avoid pain mindset.

If telling you the truth will have a negative consequence..why should she?

Recovery is the place for building blocks of that sort. It may take years in fact..it may be that WW has a lifelong habit of dishonesty..be it factual, historical, emotional..

We value less what we didn't have to bleed for..just as a part of our makeup.

The weakness that I refer to is the BS who accepts the WS as a FWS under questionable terms.

I'm not familiar enough with your story to make a judgement here..but it is the common denominator..so if a person is experiencing a false recovery [ie the A went underground but didn't end..BS has been led to believe something that isn't true] that is the first question to ask..what makes you think recovery is where you were at?

In correcting your aim..you first need an accurate tool of measurement.

It is best for the WS to not have the belief that recovery of the marriage is a given.

There I said it. [winks]

Would your wife lack follow through in operating a life saving device?

Would she negate or "forget" to tell you information that was relevent to her own survival?

Personally..I would get a concrete plan. I would innoculate myself against the infection of fogspeak..do not believe anything you can't verify independently.

Have you done plan A? [again..not familiar] If so..how long..what sort of exposure did you do..how did WW respond..what brought about NC letter[s]..how many relapses over what period of time?

Assuming that you [somewhat] went from plan A to plan tryin' to get to recovery but in a murky undefined sort of way I would probably tell WW that this newest bit of nondisclosure hurts you very much..damages both your respect for her..your ability to trust her..your WISH to trust her and your love for her [if this is true]..I would tell her that this lifestyle is not acceptable to you..and that you will need either her committment to the recovery of the marriage..or her key to the house so to speak.

If there is something standing between you and plan B..deal with it..take care of business so that you ARE ready to use that when/if it becomes prudent. Had you been ready..I would probably have advised that after an incident such as this.


WW is not a child..she does not need to be protected from the outcome of her choices.

Having secret email contact with OM is not an accidental thing rprynne..I hope you will allow yourself to acknowledge that. She didn't forget to disclose this to you..she intentionally kept it from you so that she could continue to harm you behind your back. It is good that you have empathy for her..but don't allow yourself to get lost in the fog of wishfull thinking...that empathy road is running in one direction at this time.

The WS is a vile thing..you have to be ruthless with the WS..and save your kindness for your W. That is how you can help her help herself. I know how weird that sounds. When you are dealing with WS behavior..right in the chest with both barrells is the way to go IMO and my experience.

It isn't a single choice..it is a series of choices that form a lifestyle..and when WS rears it's ugly head..it needs a consistent rebuff..not to be nurtured.

I don't think I can be any more clear on that issue.

I am rprynne's WW. I did break the no contact after I received an email that was from the OM that was sent to me and a large list of people. It came to my work and I emailed him from the other account and ask him not to send me emails at work. I was feeling out of sorts when I got the email from him and responded from the other account. The account was not established as a secret account, but rather an account that I could use to fill in when companies or consumer product forms ask for an email address.

I know what I did was wrong, hurtful and disrespectful. I sent the no contact again to tell the OM that I was wrong to accept and respond to his email and to state again that contact cannot continue.

I know I was wrong and I know that what I did has caused a major setback. I don't think my H and I are in recovery. We both have too many emotions and concerns to be in recovery.

The reason I responded to the email was the feeling that my H has judged me morally and while he denies that he has, some things said this weekend confirm my belief. If he does actually feel that way about me and what I have done, then we will not be able to recover. At least I don't see how.

I am not making an excuse. I know I was wrong and hurtful.

na-huh

recovery is chock FULL of all sorts of emotions and concerns

RECOVERY

is when BOTH spouses are doing EVERYTHING they can to do whatever it takes to make the marriage whole

and it is all emotional and all full of concerns

if you wait to be UNemotional to enter recovery ~~~> you'll never enter the recovery room !

You are not in recovery if you are keeping secrets!

Pep

How can we be in recovery if my H thinks I'm a wh***? I don't want to be unemotional, but based on some of his questions and conversations, I really think this is how he feels. I feel guilty about the A and I don't know how to move past that when I really feel like my H questions my morals. I was wrong to allow the contact. Until the contact about a week ago, there were no secrets. I hope we can get back to that.

Noodle - I do appreciate your feedback.

I'll give a recap.

I guess I'll go back a little farther in time. In the summer of 2003, MT and I lost a baby to a miscarriage. We had been trying for some time to have kids. After a while we started again, but we were arguing a lot. In December of '04, MT decided to quit her job. In March '05 MT told me she did not want to have kids and said she loved me, but was not in love with me. This is about when I found MB and started applying some of its principles. At this time MT agreed that we would try to work on things, but in late March '05 she got a job offer from a company based in TX that wanted to open an office in our hometown. She said the job required a 3 month probationary period at the home office. While I wasn't thrilled, with her moving away, we agreed that this was not a separation and we would start trying to work on our M. She told me she moved into a female friends house that was usually empty.

In July '05 she was supposed to be moving back home. When she was out one day, I found several cards from the OM. When she got home a confronted her and she confessed the A, but said the OM lived near our hometown and that the A ended in March. The cards supported this. I told her I wanted to try to repair our M. She said she didn't know, but she wasn't moving home at that time.

During the next several weeks, I really started snooping. I found out OM lived in the same town she was working, and the place she was living was his place. She claimed she was only renting the place and he did not live there. I asked her to move out of his place, which she did, but still would not move back home.

In August '05, I went to vist her in TX. We talked, and she agreed to NC and MC with SH. She wrote a NC letter and I sent. However, she tells me that her new employer has decided not to open in office in our hometown. I say, that won't work and she says she'll take care of it.

In Sept '05, she says new company says they don't mind if she works from home. She moves back into the house, but only stays a week. Then we start this long cycle of her visiting every few weeks for a couple of days.

In Nov '05, I find e-mail to OM. She never really ended contact. We argue about it and she agrees to send another NC letter. Which she does, but then immediately follows that up with another phone call to OM. She says just to settle thing and that NC is really in place.

In December '05 OM tries to call her. She tells me about it. I tell her perhaps its because the NC letter you sent isn't clear enough. She says she wants to send another NC letter in Jan '05. At this point, I say that's up to you, but if you need to do that, okay. She does.

At this point, her job gives her a special project to be completed by July '06. She agrees to start MC in earnest and be home every weekend. Also her company says they are going to open an office back in our home town. Verified by interoffice memo. So the plan, set up by SH and us is to start a holding pattern on working on the M until she moves back home in July.

Things go pretty well during that point. MT appears to be open and honest, we have some R talks, but also have a lot of fun together. We talk 5-6 times on the phone. She provides me more details of the A. I still have some triggers, there is still more that can be done by both sides, but we appear to be in a holding pattern (as planned).

About 3 weeks ago, things change and I start to get suspicious. I check her work computer and find she has an e-mail account that she has not told me about. I confront her about it and eventually she says that OM contacted her and she just started sending some harmless e-mails back and forth. She says she was upset with some of the things I had said to her a couple of weeks ago. She says she is dissappointed with her self, knows its wrong, and wants to send another NC letter. I say its getting almost comical, but ok.

She left to go back to TX today.

During all of this I have been plan A'ing or working on recovery. I think MT has also been working on recovery. She admits that she could do better. I'm sure I could do better to.

So where are we at. Well, I don't know. I'm not being overly pessimistic or optimistic. That is why I said there could be such a wide range of possibilites from worst case, a complete continuing underground A to a unfortunate relapse.

I may get into some of your specific questions in a later post.

MT - I don't think you are a wh***. I don't know how to be clearer than that. I did not say that in any of our conversations.

What things did I say that confirm your beliefs?

I know you don't always like logic. But you also know I am usually a logical man. Based on what you know about me, based on what you know about how I think, based on my actions, why would you deduce that I think you are a wh***?

Simply put, how many men do you know that would spend over a year trying to better themselves, trying to treat their W better, and trying to repent for the damage they caused in their M, if they thought their W was a wh***.

Which makes more sense?

I am so weak, pathetic, and afraid, that I would do these thing for someone I hold in such disregard.

I would do these things only for someone I care very deeply for, respect tremendously, and love very much.

NUH UH...The above is not even close to the truth...The REASON that you responded to the email was that you caved in to a selfish want for an OM FIX...PERIOD, PARAGRAPH, THE END...MT, it's time to get honest...You regain integrity by OWNING your behaviors and making amends the best that you can...Blame Shifting doesn't cut it around here...Especially with a FWS that almost medaled in that particular sport... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

EVEN if rprynne said, "I AM JUDGING YOU MORALLY MT", that does NOT entitle a married woman to have contact with her former adultery partner...And I AIN'T judgin' you MT, I've just stood where you seem to be standing right now...Incidentally, standing in a pile of that will flat out ruin your shoes if ya know what I mean...And for goodness sake, if you own Manolos, or the like, don't wear them til you can at least be honest with yourself! Til then, wear cheap rubber rain boots only! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I suspect that you are judging your own morality, and presuming that rprynne is doing the same...What specifically has rprynne said that confirms YOUR belief about YOU???

Mrs. W

Wow Margie, you really, really are in a total fog here. Sheesh - Turn on the foglights and sound the fog horn.

Margie, You seem to think you can demand trust and respect. How about earning some? Do you really think you can have a secret email account but it's not too bad? Ever been only a little bit pregnant?

You don't want to be thought of as a wh*** but you sure do seem to act like one.

rprynne, you did but that doesn't mater. Mrs. W is correct and I gave in. Don't know how many other ways I can say I was wrong.

Has this situation happened to anyone else and how was it handled?

MT...

So much I want to say to you... but so pressed for time.

So I'll zero in on one thing:


That kind of dismissive response is completely unfair.

I am not unsympathetic to your situation right now, MT. I know how strong the pull of an OP can be... especially if you're feeling a little down or going through a rough patch with your spouse. I know how it feels to try to work on a marriage when you have no romantic feelings for your spouse. Believe me! And if my OM had not tossed me aside like a used snot-rag... I could easily see myself falling into the same position you're in right now.

HOWEVER -- You accuse rprynne of judging you... of saying or doing something that made you feel like a wh***. Then when he asks you to be specific... you refuse... and say, "oh, it doesn't matter. I already said I was wrong." Not good enough. Either you're just making-up excuses for the broken NC... and you CAN'T come up with any specifics. Or rprynne really did say something that hurt you... and you're just trying to avoid conflict. If that's the case, how do you expect to clear the air between the two of you? How can he learn to better communicate with you if you won't be honest about how you interpret his words?

I have to be honest here MT -- I do have a bias. I've read a lot of rprynne's posts where he displays remarkable empanthy for WS's. So unless he presents one "face" here on MB... and a totally different "face" to you... I have a hard time imagining him being that judgemental. But I could be wrong. (first time for everything you know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

If he did do or say something indicated he looks down on you... no, it wasn't an excuse for you to break NC... but it IS an issue between the two of you. Please don't fluff it off.

--SC

MT and rprynne - please, please, please do NOT post to each other's threads.

I've seen this before here on MB and it always ends very badly.

You can *read* each other's threads if you must, but no good can come of you posting to each other unless and until you are well on the road to recovery.

Let the rest of the MB posters talk to you here without the distraction of your anger and hurt coming in on the thread.

Mulan

Mulan - Fair enough. MT said she would start another thread. For those that try to help, I'd ask that you do it with the real spirit of help. If a 2x4 is neccessary, so be it, but let's not be vindictive.

I think it often gets lost on these boards the things that are better. Most only give cursory updates on the good and want advice on the bad.

Many may think I'm delusional, but many things are better. MT has made a lot of improvements. Let's face it, this stuff ain't easy and I doubt very few have gone through this without bumps in the road.