Hey, SHOULDGUY...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for your offer of reassurance that I really don't yell at you...that's my soft heel, not your doing, 'k? I'm working stuff out, too, ya know.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"I don’t know if I should be happy"

Stop right there, Tony...this is why I hello'd you with SHOULDGUY...

Emotions are. Knowing your emotions are your responsibility. Are you delighted? Then you are. Are you sad? Then you are. Mixed emotions? They are yours...you have them. "I feel grateful that she chose to go, and respect her intent is her own. I am grateful for her choices."

You have not seen what she's been doing for you...her intentions are in her head...you choose to see her as not doing anything for you for a long time. That's yours. Your chosen perspective.

"For this, but I wish that she was doing it to get some insight and some info" DJ alert...DJ alert...judgment of what you cannot judge and live respectfully...DJ alert

(I annoy even myself, I promise.)

"For her not for me, maybe for us." You can judge actions...they are reality. Intentions, motivations behind those actions...off limits. If you base your belief that she has to act right, intend purely, believe, think and feel only certain ways...then what are you choosing to do with what isn't yours at all?

Now, about your choices:

"Sticking to the school.
All registrations are closed now it’s too late at this point.

Besides if she chooses to contact him the school is 5 minutes away from my house."

What I would like to know is if you are saying, "I'm choosing to continue to allow contact. I am choosing this knowing there are other choices, and do not choose to believe I am limited in my choices." I'm behind you on your choice if this is truly where you're at.

There is no INSTANT switch to go from living disrespectfully to respectfully by choice. God did give us the long-term ability to do this through awareness, believing, and practice. Your choice. It's a really slow switch. It's a process switch. Dang, I can't make that analogy work, can I?

And as to after the IC appt...AHHHH...SHE SHARED!!! AND YOU NOTICED!!! Yippee, yahoo...praise the Lord and you!

I'm doing a happy dance..can you see yourself, Tony? Growing more and more...and being blessed by SEEING the blessings? Like in you relating your stunned knowledge about CTF's thread...choosing to widen your perspective and let your own gratitude, to know that God does not put on you anything more than you can bear...is a loving act you did for yourself, reading, knowing, absorbing and considering. Awesome awareness, Tony.

This is your journey...your marriage...your life...comparing it to others is two-edged; can falsely take you up or bring you down...stay centered in your own stuff...widen your perspective and cull the truth for you from it, not through comparison, but through connection.

I'm still working on this myself.

In your corner...being blessed by you and everyone else in my life...and seeing God's love, hearing his words, through us all.

LA

Good morning LA.

It’s been a few days, I don’t feel that I can post freely and say everything that’s on my mind anymore, I can still post but I know that she is reading it I feel that I can’t post anything before talking to her about it first.

I know it’s a lot to ask, never mind.

I have a lot to post but I can’t.

?????.

My email is public.

Sorry. I can barely breath these days I am fighting an uphill battle by myself.

Tony

Good morning LA.

Since my WW is reading my posts I was wondering if you could right something directly to her and for all WW”s coming from you will mean a lot to everybody.

I just asked 2crazy to do the same and let’s say my W’s name is Rain, she likes this name.

Just a thought.

Tony.

I love the name Rain...sincerely. I would like that name, too!

Dear Rain,

Scary world you're in right now...it was for me. I sought in others what I wanted in myself. I looked to be filled up, if I chose right, chose the right person, to do it.

Doesn't work that way...God didn't design us to be filled up from the outside...why you'll hear so often he's in us, when we invite him in...he created us...as we are...whole and complete...his fingerprints are part of us...and have been, from the beginning.

I thought beauty got people what they wanted most...gave them confidence, knowledge, security...acceptance. I worked hard on creating an illusion of being beautiful...knowing all the time, I wasn't. God cheated me on looks...my body...and when someone loved me, I only believed they loved the illusion...my achievement. That's what I called love...earning it, being good enough, presentable enough...that I stepped over how truly beautiful God made me to begin with.

I hurt a lot of people...many times. Along the way, I was stomping on myself, too...so that seemed to redeem me...and it didn't.

To stop this filling myself up from the outside...getting love to come in and stay...I had to go inside and find all that I had already...an abundance...that there are not soul mates, perfect people just for us...to cure what ails us.

We ail.

We hurt. It's real. It's our own. How we see ourselves emotionally, physically, mentally and spiritually shapes our lives; and God gave us the sole choice in how we see ourselves. I finally broke out of the pretend prison I was in my own life, after my affair...and not because someone else found me beautiful, interesting, fascinating, loving--made me whole in their eyes...because that's temporary, isn't it?

When they get to really know you, that goes away. They see the selfish, the needy, the weak in us...and they don't like it. When we aren't our illusion, things go bust...they reject us, shame us and turn away...because we're defective.

When we aren't.

Our husbands know us...though we may teach ourselves to believe they do not...accept and love us entirely...for being in their lives, for being who we really are...and yet, they hurt us...ignore or try to fix us...

Yet, we ignore ourselves, try to fix us through others, and keep coming back to the same core hurts, same seat of despair...inside isn't a safe place for us. Outside is better.

It's not.

Choosing to see ourselves as we really are, then we grow to learn we are separate and equal to everyone...not defective...our beauty isn't an illusion which we maintain...we have to find it within us and let it shine...and know love and are loved by choice...

In my prayers...hard to remember all that pain, fear of what others think...feeling betrayed by OM for not being who I chose to believe he was...and now, deeply, wholly grateful to realize I made him up...no betrayal...it wasn't real...and finally stop my fantasy world, full of illusions, and live in peace, joy, freedom and choosing to love has finally filled me up...overflowing...and that's why I'm here, Rain.

For you.

LA

Thanks LA.


I printed my request and your reply to Rain.

She read it; the only comment or question I got was why is she talking so much about God?

I said she is a believer.

I myself loved your letter.

I’m glad you are helping 2crazy, I don’t know why I want to see her succeed,
But I do I really do.

Please keep an eye on her, she needs all the help and support she can get.

(((((LA))))).


Tony.

Good evening, Tony...

I wanted to pop in and say that I do understand your craving to have your WW see life differently...to share yourself and your new thoughts and beliefs.

I get that.

I want you to stop, though.

She will choose her life...she does every day...each step...your influence is limited to what she allows...

And this is great...because when she chooses to personally recover, and recovery your marriage, then you'll relish it was all her...all the time.

Trust me on this. Why a manipulative life...one based on choosing our actions, thoughts and beliefs based on possible response doesn't fulfill us...because when we do, we do not value as much when we do recovery our marriages...and the trust doesn't build back up in the same way, if we believe we got us there...

That's where the "takes two" comes in...and it's always voluntary...you can't make her...and you know that...this is about within us, what we believe, when we've poured everything possible in us to stop our own pain and get to the thriving we know is possible.

This is about you, your choices and the consequences inside of you...not her.

She is choosing her life...her thoughts, her beliefs, perspective and perception. Stand off and see her daily choices clearly...they are hers only.

LA

Good morning everybody.

Everybody knows that my wife had found my thread on June 27th.

Now a while back my WW got another cell phone in order to talk to OM.
What she didn’t know that I can get her call log and bill online.

2nd Dday was May 31st OM was sent on a leave of absence from church that same day.
The phone had no activity until 6/17/06 OM had called from a payphone near my house.
Don’t ask how I found out.
Then the first day he went back to work the calls started again; he initiated the first contact, knowing that any contact will end his job.

Last week I decided to face my wife with my knowledge of the phone bill knowing
That nobody have her secret number except him.

It all started on Thursday. This is going to be long.

She asked me what was wrong since I have been down for a few days, I told her I needed
To talk to her after the kids go to bed, but she insisted on talking right then she said the kids are upstairs watching a TV.

So here it goes.

I told her that I loved her with all my heart and if I didn’t want to work on our M I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing, I told her that I have hope that we can fix this,
I told her that my priorities are 1st us 2nd the kids third comes the business.

Then I said on July 27th I told you that NC is not negotiable to me, and that I know
That they have been contacting each other by phone, and that she was with him
Yesterday.

She said no way I was at the Gym yesterday and you can ask her friend,
Now this was the truth I didn’t have to ask her friend I know when she is lying
And this was not a lie.
Then she tried to deny the calls, this is when I told her that I could get the bill online
She said no you can’t so I went on the computer then pulled up her bill.
She was shocked and a little mad; she said I can’t believe you did this,
I’m sure it’s illegal I said it probably is and I will take the consequences.
I told her that I know that it’s hard to stop, I told her about 2crazy’s struggle,
And the most important thing I told her that she have to make her choices,
And that I will give her as much time she needs to think, but I will not wait for ever
Bottom line I will not stay in a roommate marriage with her because I love her and it hurts,
Every phone call every word every contact is another knife in my heart.

She said what are you going to do now? Are going to tell the pastor?
I told her I don’t know, I have to think about it.

Friday morning I called her I told her that I decided that if I want to tell the pastor it’s going to be with her permission, I was shocked when she said that have to think about that.
Wow, she called me later and she said I’m struggling I can’t think anymore, I don’t know what to decide, I told her to stop thinking for now and take some time to clear her mind,
She said ok.

That night we didn’t talk about it.

Saturday morning she called me crying, she said I want you to tell the pastor, and I want you to know that since he went back to work I have seen him 5 times, only to talk, nothing physical happened, and yes I was going to have lunch with him on wed but he didn’t show up.
And I have marked on my calendar every time and place I have seen him, you can give this info to the pastor, I can’t do this anymore I am not a good liar, it’s to stressful,
It’s like I have to hide the phone, hide the bill, delete the calls, delete the computer history, and watch for you coming home when I’m talking to him, it’s too much stress
I can’t do it anymore; I don’t want to do it anymore.
And you know what, Thursday when you faced me with the calls the first thing I thought
About was changing the cell phone number, then I thought to myself it’s this is not me
Tony will find out, and I just can’t take it anymore.
Wow, all I said is I love you now more then ever and, what took you so long?
She said you know the A, I told her you mean the affair? She said no the other A,
What you told me, I said what the addiction part of it? She said yes.
It’s like I’m anxious all day I can’t call him during the day, so I’m waiting for his call,
Then I have to call him after 4:00 pm because this is when he is alone, and I have to keep trying, and trying until he picks up, and sometimes he is not there, then I have to look
For you coming home it’s been a nightmare. I just don’t want to do it anymore.
I didn’t say a word I just listened and she poured her guts out.
She is earning her F in FWW.

I told her welcome back and brace yourself for a bumpy ride, Rain you are going to have
Bad days you want to call him, don’t, call me instead; you got my number don’t you?
She said I think I’m over him, I told her just trust me on this one and go read 2crazy’s struggle.

Now no more hiding no more secrets, we will decide what needs to be done together, ok?
Ok? She said.

Then she called her mom to come baby sit the kids she wanted us to go to the movies
Together she wanted to see “you me and Dupree”. We did had a great time I feel
Like I’m dating her again I don’t want to say the wrong thing, you know it’s like
When we met for the first time all over again.

When we came back I asked her aren’t you glade I’m on your side?
She said you’re the only one on my side.

Then she said I want to ask you for a favor, when you talk to the pastor make it look like
You got the information out of me I did not volunteer it, I don’t want to give OM any reason to bash me in front of my friends at school, if he gets fired and blame me for that to, I’m sorry look at me asking you to protect me, while you are the victim here,
This is the first time she acknowledges me being the victim, wow I told her I’m flattered that
You are acknowledging this but I don’t feel that I’m the victim; we are in this boat together
I’m glad that you are finally waking up, I asked her to tell me what triggered all of this, she said I don’t know but I have been struggling with this for a while now, I asked her why did she mark all the meetings on her calendar, she said I don’t know why, but on my last meeting with OM I asked him flat out if he wanted me to stop calling him, and half of me
Wanted him to say yes I wanted this to be over and I wanted him to say it to me, well he didn’t, he said that he loved me and he cried.

Ok now she wanted me to tell the pastor the truth so OM can be fired.
We agreed to have a meeting with the pastor and the school principal at the same time.
Yesterday I called the principal and ask her to arrange the meeting, a few minutes later
The pastor called, he tried to slither himself out of that meeting, then he said I will get back to you.
This morning he called me back; he said if you want to talk about your kids at school, you need to talk to the principal because the church and the school are separate,
If you want to talk about the other issue well you need to have your IC talk to his MC
About your new findings, so I pressed and I told him that all I need is a chance to talk to him, I don’t care about OM’s MC or M, but I needed him to know the truth, he said that
He have another side of the story and he kept repeating to have the counselors talk to each other, what I concluded is that he does not want to know the truth so he wouldn’t have to fire OM, which is ridicules, he is only a janitor for god sake. Anyway, my wife got very disappointed, she wanted him fired, they told her indirectly that she can not spend time at school otherwise they would have to let the kids go.

Now I have proof that OM is the one that started the contact knowing that will
Get him fired. The pastor doesn’t want to see this, so they would rather fire my wife
And let the kids go, now I forgot to mention that my wife on top of her volunteer hours
She is on school payroll she works their part time, when they need her, so she is being fired.

So I’m consulting a lawyer about our rights and I think this is harassment.

I don’t know I will keep posting as things progress.

We do have a meeting with the principal tomorrow morning, we decided to tell her
The truth, and find out what’s the deal with the threats.
The only thing is I don’t think that she can do anything about it, but it’s good for her to know the truth.

Tony.

TONY...

WOW..that is great...and I know what she means when she says "it is too hard to keep the lies "..as I said before the DOUBLE LIFE..will get to you!...

It will be a long slow process from here, baby steps.. towards each other everyday...she will struggle..you will question...but know that you can help bring here out from the "dark"...

Good luck to both of you...I'm in your corner!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

THANKS 2CRAZY

BUMP

Tony,

Thank you for the update. Here's what I'm not clear on...

Do you want to live in truth, have a truthful marriage...or do you want a manipulative one?

Rain's request that you say she didn't volunteer it, which was a lie...if you choose to participate, you are choosing to not live in truth to possibly gain something else. This isn't a very stable way to live, IMO. I believe truth matters greatly in saving a marriage...and not salvaging an unfaithful one, an injured and limping one.

Your choice to inject respect or instead, ease, soothe or cover up (in the name of emotional support) her emotions is yours.

You're doing great on the respecting by listening, not lecturing, teaching, guiding and great on acknowledging. What if you do all that and take it away by your actions...choosing to lie or misdirect? Can that happen?

She is being honest, even knowing what she shares may be painful for you...that rocks. That's huge. Respect her more...she's not fragile--she's strong. She can take whatever comes from giving evidence of OM contacting her. Volunteering it. Being honest with herself and others.

Where her pride comes from...her self-esteem, her power. All hers. Not yours to make or break...only to respect.

What a thriving, joyous marriage you're working towards, Tony.

Now...can you see where aiding her in misrepresentation is a way of condoning the secret cell? And why did you portray her as a school volunteer only, and not also a part-time employee? That really can change stuff, Tony. Think about it. Lawsuit kind of stuff.

LA

Hi Tony,

Wow, sorry about the continued contact. That's so painful. It does sound like your W has turned a corner, though. Congratulations on that.

On the Favor thing, I never got the impression your W volunteered anything, so it does not seem like a lie. She denied it till faced with proof. You DID uncover it. She did not come to you and confess. That said, I would NOT lie for her so she could save face with OM (or for any reason). But it seems the truth is actually what she is asking for. Just my 2cents - Dru

Thanks LA and thank you DRU.

She had a meeting with the principal this morning, she is a sweetheart,
My wife called me right after she said that the principal told her about a phone conversation I had with her a while back she, about how much I love my wife and that I would do anything to get her back, and the principal was crying telling her how genuine she felt I was.

And that she will get back to her about what will happen next year.

Now my FWW want to go to counseling with me next week, her Idea.

Yesterday I asked her for the first time after she told me the truth, about where do we stand now, she said you are my friend now I don’t feel pressure when you are around anymore, but I still can’t see myself sleeping in the same bed with you (and she meant just sleeping k?).

I told her not the answer I was expecting but we have come a long way, and I appreciate your honesty, but you need to know that we can work on this, well I don’t need to work on it I already do love you and I forgive you and all the good stuff and this is not going to change, and I know I want to fix this right now but it doesn’t work this way, you need to know that it will take time a long time but I’m committed and I hope you will be to.

Because if you go to counseling expecting a negative outcome it will be a negative outcome,
We can be happy, I can feel it, we need to keep being honest with each other and take it
One day at a time.

And I have been waiting for this day for a long time I’m at a very good place right now,
I am you’re friend again, and if I had to go through all this again to be here I will do it.

And about being truthful to the pastor, well I lost my respect to this guy he doesn’t even want to meet with me, especially if there is somebody at the meeting with us like the principal,
It seems to me that he doesn’t want to know the truth, he is friends with OM and he doesn’t want to have to fire him.
Oh well.

LA I did contact my lawyer today and she said yes you have a discrimination case, because
Your wife works there, so wait for the principal’s answer and call me back with all the info, so we can send them a letter.

Now I will find a way to let the truth be known. I’m working on it I have different options.

And DRU you are right practically she didn’t volunteer the info about the phone calls
She was caught of guard, but she didn’t have to volunteer the contacts they had and the details. But I’m great full that she did, and now I do trust her, and she said that I would never do, I do trust her because of her volunteering this info.

Tony.

Sounds good.

Just a thought, about her saying she cant sleep with you. Next time it comes up, agree it's complicated, and ask if you two can work up to it. Keep it light and friendly, and suggest that maybe you two could try a nap during the day, sometime. Fully clothed, broad daylight... just to get used to being next to each other. Maybe start with watching some TV in bed and doze a little. But get her agree to try to be close with you, in a very non-sexual way. Just like best friends watching a moving in bed together (girls/women do this, pretend you understand <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

Hang in there!! - Dru

thanks DRU this is what I'm trying to do, we didn't go to MC
yet so I have hope.

Tony

...

Morning Tony,

Have to agree with Dru on this one...intimacy comes from the feeling of closeness, trust, and in a sense..comfort..at least from a women's perspective....

It is not something that can't be forced. It is a feeling that you "grow into"...and since the two of you have been quite distant..you will have to begin that process all over...

Start with little things, like just setting aside time to "talk" each day...take a walk..a drive..anything..just set the time aside and do it!

Good luck as you travel the road to recovery!

Thank you 2crazy

How are you doing this morning?

I wish you the best too, recovery is hard, and good luck to you to.

Tony

Good morning

It’s been a few days since I posted.

A lot has happened, last week after I told my wife about my knowledge of the phone calls
To OM and after she told me about the meetings she had with him, we had a good weekend, and a good week.

This weekend was not as good we talked; I asked her where are we standing now?
She said you are my friend now but I can’t imagine being more then that I don’t think
I can be physically intimate with you again.

Now this was the case before the A to, I tried to get a reason why but she wouldn’t say
Anything, when I asked her if it was the way I look, she said I don’t want to talk about it.
So I think it is my looks, what I don’t understand is that OM is not a better-looking guy,
Actually… never mind.

Yesterday she decided to go with me to my appointment with my IC, it was our first MC
Session, she still misses OM; she didn’t talk to him for about a week now.

MC asked her if she misses the good feelings she had when she was with OM and not OM
Himself.

I like this MC she talked about the physical relation with me and that she is 110% sure
That it could never happen again, MC said ok we will put the S** on the shelve now
We have a lot more to work with, we have to work on your intimacy, and on breaking those walls you both put up, and stop the bleeding before we tend to the other stuff.

So I don’t know what to think right now, I know that I’m not confused about my feelings

But she is, and I don’t want to be in her shoes right now, I can’t imagine what she is going thru at least I know what I want, and I can see the whole picture, she is still in the fog, I asked her yesterday how come she can’t see how big of a liar OM is, she said I lied to, I told her yes you did but you never lied about your feelings towards me he is lying to his wife, to his kids, to the pastor and he is told the pastor that I was crazy and he even told you that and you where upset because you knew better.

I don’t know what to do anymore, the most humiliating thing OM did and I don’t know
How she doesn’t see that, he took my wife’s picture because his wife wanted to see how she looks like, so she can be on the lookout for her, well I know the real reason was to give the picture to their friends so they can be watching for her when she is at church.
What a nice guy.

Just venting here having another bad day.

Hey Tony,

That is part of the purpose here...to vent...sometimes you have to get those thoughts out!...once you read them again yourself, you already know the answer!

Your wife is going to have many "missing him" days..sorry...the hard part for her as well, is that she can't share that with you, for if she does that makes your pain more intense. And most WW who have had the A exposed, do not want to hurt their WS anymore...I know this sounds odd..but it is the way they (we) are thinking at the time....

For me..I would just tell my H that I was not having a good day, I will reassure that it had nothing to do with the choice I had made to stay in the marriage, just that I was working some emotions out in my head....He has done the same, when he is "thinking' too much..sometimes it is not good to tak when some things are running through your brain..better to let it go for a bit..then be able to talk "rationally"....

Hang in there, as you know the road is long & hard...but I have to believe that if both eople are willing to stay and begin to fight back to save their marriage..then it is possible to rebuild & recover...For some of us, it may take longer, and may invovle a 2 steps forward...and then 2 steps back...but as long as we are walking it together...their is still hope!

Patience and strength to you Tony!

Hi Tony,

I just dont get people like your W. She's saying she never wants a marital releationship with you, but she does not want a D? She's 'confused'? I cant imagine, things like that have always been clear to me.

I'd guess I'd say continue on Plan A, re-evaluate any possible LB's, and hang in there. Seems like you really might benefit with some 180... Become more active outside the house, look sharp, smell nice - see if you can pique her interest that way.

She makes my head hurt, you're a saint for hanging in there. Know your limits and watch for signs of your LB bottoming out. There should always be some kind of time limit on Plan A, remember that! Please take care - Dru