I am a presbyterian turned almost episcopalian.

I have days where I question my faith.

am a woman of science.

and yet, sometimes I apparently see science in complete harmony with my faith...and at other times not so.

I don't believe your neighbor will incidentally go to ******...and neither would the priest I just spoke with a few months back.

I don't really want to get involved except to say I agree with this statement.

"I think one's ACTIONS will earn a place in Heaven. And I don't mean mumbling a few words in Church and throwing a few coins in the pan will buy you a straight ticket."

I have not been a practicing Cathohlic for quite sometime. but I do remember this.

The son should not be punished for the sins of his father.

If my parents were christian I would probably be raised christian. If my parents were raised to be another religion I would probably be raised as that other religion. It is hard to break away from the religion you were "taught to believe in".

I would hate to think that because I was raised in a country or by a family that was not of the right religion I am doomed to He!!.

By the way this whole thread really makes me want to go see the new X Men movie.

I'm going to go see Cars. X-men is too deep for me.

I haven't seen it...my faith was also not influenced by fact I loved davinci code either..

has nothing to do with that.

a mere movie can't make me a wayward PERSON!

Justpeachy-
Are you saying that The Matrix didn't change the way you viewed life forever? What about Jaws? C'mon! Movies DEFINE our lives!!!! (Can't find any cute smiley face icons to fit that one.)

If you look at what I wrote again, you'll see that I said the same thing. Creationism (not creation, per se), I agree, is not a part of all religions. Probably not even "most." Creation may be a part of most, but possibly not all religions. My point was that creationism IS a religion-based notion, and a very focused and exlusive one at that. Also, sadly, a politically-motivated concept.


Agreed, with the further caveat from WAT above, that evolution isn't something 2 "believe in", it's something 2 strive 2 understand.


Well, you lost me there.

-ol' 2long

ahhh...nevermind.

Clearly, God doesn't imanotherone. You are arguing as one who does not know anything but "charges" brought by those who do not believe. Here, let me give it straight to you from God:

[color:"red"]"Not everyone everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" [/color] (Matthew 7: 21-23 NIV, emphasis added)

That, imanotherone, IS God speaking to those who profess to being a Christian but who never were. He is quite emphatic....I NEVER knew you. People can try to fool themselves, or others, but they cannot fool God.




This is another point of misunderstanding. God sends no one to he11. We are ALL destined for he11, and God rescues those who accept His provision for salvation. There is NOTHING that we can do that "merits" salvation from he11 on our own. Oh, I understand the comparison you are making and from a humanistic standpoint, I would prefer to be around someone who is trying to do whatever good they can. But we are not judged by human standards, we are judged by God's standards of holiness and not one thing we can do is "good enough" because we are all sinners. It isn't that important whether they are big sins or little sins, just the plain fact that ANY sin is anathema to God. And God provides the ONE way that we can be rescued from our own path. That "narrow gate" is the only way, no matter what we "like" or may "think." Salvation is not up to us, it is up to God.




No, you misunderstand. The ONLY way to have any "evolution" of any kind is for a change in the genetic structure of an organism. Within the genetic code there are "traits," for example recessive genes, that can cause "natural selection" to occur, such as the Peppered Moth. But that is a working out of information already present, and the moth, whether light or dark, is STILL a Peppered Moth.




Well, considering I used to be an evolutionist, due to all the "scientific propaganda," I think we need to clarify something here. When speaking of Creation, we are speaking of God creating the various "Kinds" of animals, not all the various species that make up each Kind. It is the genetic code that both allows for variations within each Kind and that prevents the making of "new Kinds." That, and the 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics. So, HOW would one get changes in the self replicating genetic code of the Chromosomes? What evolutionary process would make one Kind change into a totally different Kind (not a pseudo change like the Peppered Moth)?




Excellent! That will make discussing things like "probabilities" much easier.

Absolutely it is simply because it requires the actions of a purposeful Creator who created "on purpose" and "by design."

By the same token evolutionism IS an atheism-based notion. It operates on the principle that everything happened by random chance and without any purpose or direction by any "intelligent" agent.

So BOTH are founded in a belief based in FAITH, not in science or proven, reproduceable fact.




And this differs significantly from Christianity how? Christians look at CHRIST as someone to believe in, not Creation. Creation is believed in because God revealed it to us and HE was the only one present "at the beginning." Christians strive to understand all that God has revealed to us through His Scripture. How might that be significantly different from an evolutionist who strives to understand the physical world and it's workings, while "believing" that evolutions IS how everything 'got here' even though they don't know the "how" or "why"?

FH, I'm curious. Since you say you one subscribed to the evolutionist "propoganda," what was the event or events that made you reject your old religeon for a new one.

BTW, thanks for the Matthew 7 quote. My knowledge of Scripture is quite dated, and I can only absorb what is relevant to me at the time. At least I know all those ba$[censored] at church who wave their Bibles in my face will be joining me in He!!. Boy, won't THEY be surprised.

You must understand, that I'm having a tough time believing that God has decided not to save the vast majority of the human population from he!!. There are so many in this world who do so much good, without having accepted JC as their personal Lord and Savior.

Furthermore, you say "By the same token evolutionism IS an atheism-based notion. It operates on the principle that everything happened by random chance and without any purpose or direction by any "intelligent" agent."

For clarification, I'd have to say I don't believe we've gotten any "direction" since JC was here. With all the molestations, genocides, and horrors we face, I MUST believe that any God of mine would not "direct" these upon me. I'm presuming you mean God had TOLD us the right thing to do, but this is only good advice, right? We cannot assume God is actually directing anything now, since things are so horrible and malicious, right?

Reason I ask is that some folks believe God is playing an active role in tossing trouble into our lives. That can't be true, right? That sounds like a mean-spirited 6 year old with a magnifying glass over an ant hill....

Again, my theologic studies ARE lacking, and my knowledge is limited to what I get in the standard digest given all of us in Sunday School. You obviously have become a scholar on the subject, and I respect that.

In a word...God.

In two words...Jesus Christ

In three words...In the beginning....

Then I applied my training, and efforts to examining the evidence to see which Model best predicted what was actually found. You see, if Jesus Christ is NOT who He said He was, did not die in our place, and was not resurrected from the dead as "First Evidence" of God's truthfulness and faithfulness, then our faith is in vain and all other arguments are meaningless and Christians are one "sorry" lot for having believed a liar, lunatic, or someone who did not really exist.

On the other hand, if Jesus Christ IS who He said He was, then all other arguments against Him and God's revelation through Scripture are mere figments of humand imagination and are just as irrelevant to the truth.




No they won't, not if they have truly accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Those who have not really accepted Jesus Christ may well be "surprised," as you say. But only God knows for certain WHO is saved and who He "never knew." There ARE, within churches, people who sin while thinking they are doing "God's work" and there are people masquerading as believers for some personal reason, and sometimes that reason is for "self" and "power" and "using" religion to manipulate someone. But NO Christian is perfect. We ALL sin, but hopefully we less and less as we are convicted of sin and learn to walk more and more in "Christ-likeness."




I understand your dilemna. But that comes from not understanding, or accepting, what God HAS provided. He has provide THE way for all of humanity to "escape he11." It is a "narrow way" through a "narrow gate."

Understand that when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they "gained" the knowledge of good and evil. They have "passed on" that knowledge to their offspring, but that knowledge is fatally corrupted by our sin nature. Understand, too, that when Adam and Eve fell, ALL of creation fell too. What was perfect is now flawed.

The ISSUE is not how good or bad one is according to societal, or personal, standards. The ISSUE is how we according to God's standards.




Okay, it would seem that you are taking some basic truths and "twisting" them a bit. God IS in control of everything as our Sovereign Lord. Nothing happens that God does not allow to happen. Some of those things, from a human vantage point, are very bad things (tsunamis, infidelity, etc.) but God does not author sin. But we do not understand as God understands and God, not us, IS Sovereign. HIS will gets done.

By the same token, God is an extremely patient God with sinful man, despite our propensity to reject Him or to prefer "feeling good" from some sinful activity.

IF God were to act according to what we "deserve," there would be another "Noah sized flood." But God is NOT malicious and is not holding a magnifying glass to zap us so that we die.




And I would say that you are wrong. Direction is available daily through study of God's Word. "All Scripture is God-breathed (inspired) and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2Timothy 3:16-17 NIV parenthesis added)

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. (2Timothy 4:3-4 NIV)

Scholar? I don't know if I'd claim that, but I am learning.

May I suggest you take a page from the secular world and begin becoming a "scholar" or an "expert" or simply more knowledgable on a subject by reading the recogized textbook(the Bible) on the subject FIRST, for firsthand knowledge instead of someone else's "Cliff Notes" verson.

God bless.

No, it is because it was originated by religious individuals with a religious/political agenda.


No, it isn't, though Darwin may have been an atheist. If so, then it might be possible 2 use the label "atheist-based", in the sense that the originator of the concept may have been an atheist. But atheism certainly wasn't the source of the concept of evolution.


Though "random chance" and na2ral selection do tend 2 favor the development of more complex forms over time - both physically and mentally. It can certainly appear 2 be intelligently-designed, from our limited perspectives in time.


Yes both, except evolution!




I would argue that Creation, in this context, is not something 2 believe in, it's something for Christians like yourself 2 accept and understand. Christ remains the entity 2 "believe in."


As above. The difference is subtle and exists because we think differently. I see what you're getting at, I just don't believe <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> that analogy applies.

-ol' 2long

FH,
I basically swore I would not post here again, but, alas, I must ask, would you like a life raft in this turmoil?
Your words here are often not heeded, nor should you expect anything less. Were the word of Christ heeded while He walked this earth??
Of course not. Which is exactly why you should expect the exact same thing!!!
If they did not heed Him, should you expect anything different??
He has pointed out that His path is easy to discern, simply follow the bloody footprints He left for us on the path to Calvery.
I support your evengelical task and simply want you to know that you are not ALONE. Thus, I do not have your wisdom and command of the language that you posess, and can only offer residuel support, if that is possible.
The true word of the Lord, will only be offered to the humble at heart. The theologins of this world will fail to see Him.
He offers His grace to the lowly and wretched.
I am glad to fall into this catergory.
In His name,
All Blessings,
Jerry

FH,
Thanks for the suggestion to study the Bible, to avoid a "cliff's notes" version. Two questions:

Isn't the Bible itself, man's interpretation of God's words? I mean, it wasn't actually written by God or JC, right?

Furthermore, which version? King James? I did most of my Bible study using "The Way," back in school. I guess you could call that a study-guide version of the Bible, and I'd have to say many conclusions were drawn in that document that are not necessarily "the Word of God."

My point is...the Bible is a magical document, and is susceptible to all kinds of mis-interpretations. I've heard mass murderers quote scripture as if to justify their actions. KWIM?

I agree the Bible is the best source for the Word, but I still struggle with the many interpretations.

Back to the point of direction from God:
You say God directs us daily through the Bible, but I would argue that the Bible is like an instruction manual...it was written thousands of years ago, and we just keep referring back to it.

Religion starts with the answer. Science starts with the question.

This is a support forum for the betrayed. WSes are here too -- but the dominant theme and purpose of the board is support for betrayed spouses.

This is also a forum championing the idea that in all but the most extreme cases, the vow of marriage is immutable and that you can't possibly find a better person to be with than the first person you married.

Within that context, it is not unhealthy at all. There's a good bit of "ends justifies the means" and the types of circumstance you describe fall squarely into that camp. Never-the-less, the process of exposure, plan A, and plan B does seem to maximize the chance that the marriage is preserved and -- according to the successes -- can turn out stronger than before.

I don't think it's fair to come to a support forum and be judgemental about the process. It works, it does not break the law, and it's done a lot of people a lot of good.

Mebe - Interesting. But what exactly are you trying to say?

imanotherone - Okay, instruction manual or not, truth never changes. But very few people actually know what is in the Bible, let alone have studied it. So it is in many ways like a "new revelation" to many because they never tried, or wanted, to know what God actually said about things or what His commands are.




This is a common misunderstanding of what "inerrancy" means and is an excuse that many use to NOT "have to" follow God's commands, in most cases because it would mean a change in their lifestyle or desires.

The books of the Bible were written by men, in various writing styles as in any literature, but what they wrote was given to them by God to reveal His will, things we couldn't know without His telling us about them (like Creation and the Fall of Man), and to point us to God's provision for our salvation in Jesus Christ. There IS one part of Scripture that WAS directly written by the hand of God and that was the 10 Commandments, of which the 7th Commandment is what brings most of here to MB to begin with.




There are many useful translations and some that should be avoided like the plague (like the New World Translation).

The King James Version is a very good translation, but sometimes harder for folks today to follow because of the Old English phraseology. The New King James tries to bring more modern words that people will understand better. I happen to like the New International Version a lot because it uses modern words that easily understood by most people without having to have a degree in Greek or Hebrew. When studying, it's always a good idea to have several translations available to give clarity to any passages you are studying. In addition, it's a good idea to have some Commentaries around to help in hearing what "experts" can say.

Suffice it to say, that the documents we have today are VERY close to the original autographs. Many discoveries have proved that, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

So in general, that answer to your question is that the "Word of God" is the translation, not paraphrase, etc., of the original documents that faithfully attempt to translate the Greek and Hebrew words and meanings into the language of whatever people it is is translated into.

God bless.

LOL!

No, shinethrough, I don't need a life raft, I have an Ark if it is needed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your post Jerry. Feel free to join in if you feel like it.