I just re-read your posts AGG, and yes, if you guys can't negotiate successfully (cuz you are being stubborn here too my friend), and if G can't truly let go of the baby thing and the feeling that she's doing all the sacrificing, then it does seem a hopeless business.

I wonder why she feels like an outsider? Blending a family takes ALOT of time.....I'm thinking she would benefit GREATLY from doing some reading and researching on the subject. We all have this fairy tale in our heads of how things should be, when the reality of things is much different. I also think that G, b/c she won't have children of her own should you two remain together, may expect to play a bigger role than most step-moms do.

What decisions is she being excluded from at this point when you guys aren't married or even living together?

I can see why you find G's behaviour troublesome.

Must be a Virgo thing. I was in a relationship with a Virgo who was very much the same. If I said, "I feel X about this," he would retort, "Well you're WRONG!" Empathy was an unknown phenomonon for him. Now I'm a pretty reasonable person, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me all the time or always see things my way, but I'd at least expect, "Ok, you feel that way. Fair enough. I see it this way...", and I'm happy to agree to disagree. Not to be simply told that MY FEELINGS are wrong. I'm like, hang on...these are MY FEELINGS...you don't get any say whether they are "right or wrong"!

I refuse to put up with someone like this. It gets too crazy making, especially when they do the "I did NOT say that!" thing. I got out quick smart. I couldn't cope with being around someone who refuses to consider anyone else's views and then denies the words that come out of their own mouth.

LSNE

ah, the future is uncertain, and now comes the uncertainty that was not known when the dating first started.

AGG, I suspect from living with the types that don't have a good self perspective, that she doesn't see the same reality as you do. Mostly, this stems from the different experiences that have each had, one being parent and divorced, the other being single.

She hears you, but she maybe keeping score, but most likely, she is beginning to get tired of her relationship with you. Also, unknown, this behavior may be a pattern of her relationships, you may never know from talking with her. . . and this is how many of her relationships end, with the man failing her ultimate test. . . one reason why a person can do this? commitment phobia, and wanting to absolve herself of the breakup responsibility. So if the couple breaks apart, its you that is not fulfilling her expectations, making her justifiable in abandoning the relationship.

You just might ask her if her other relationships ended due to similar reasons, although I doubt you will get a realistic answer. Not everyone is marriage material, especially still single after 40...

wiftty

DW:


Yup, that's Step 1. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


But DW, this is the essence of the problem. Even though this "travel back East" thing is a surface issue, it highlights the underlying issue - that she won't hear me, and yet she feels that I don't hear her! I told her precisely what you said above - "I love your devotion to your family, I think your family is wonderful, I'd love to have a relationship with them, I understand how important it is to you, and I would like to go as often as I can. But I do have some reservations regarding the frequency of my (not yours) travel back there, due to my dislike of flying, the expense, the conflict with my son's birthday, and just the basic desire to not be pushed into making guarantees about spending two weeks every year back with your family". I did say that.

And what she said is that she wants a partner who would go back many times a year with her, and that "one red flag to me is that when I express how important it is to me that the two of us spend time with my family, there is resistance vs. an attitude of “It’s important to you so let’s make it happen.” And perhaps I worry that that’ll carry over into other areas that may be important to me but not comfortable or easy for you to accommodate".

In other words, she views me expressing my concerns as being dismissive of her desires ("resistance"), which I don't believe is fair or accurate. But she seems so blinded by her "truth" that she refuses to even listen to my version of the "truth" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. So we don't negotiate, but keep talking past each other.


Which is odd, given that she is a researcher by profession <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. And this is what really bothers me - that she has strong feelings about these things, and does not listen to other points of view. Heck, I begged her to at least look at some articles about prenups, since every single one I read suggested that people in my situation should seriously consider prenups - not so that she will change her mind, but at least make an effort to understand. But her answer was "no, I don't need to read anything, I don't believe in prenups, it is a blueprint for divorce". I don't object to her point of view, but I am tremendously bothered by her refusal to acknowledge the possible validity of alternate points of view.

And I see this over and over with her, and I do think that it is a common trait of a never-married person, who still holds on to the Cinderella vision perhaps, because they have not dealt with the flipside of divorce. It is charming and cute, and I do not want to educate her with my "superior knowledge", but I would at least like for her to listen and show me that is trying to understand. And that is sorely lacking.

Anyway, for now I said that I want a few days apart, because we are not communicating effectively and are just adding to the resenment and the pain in huge increments. She agreed, saying that she hopes we can talk about this soon. My plan is to give it a couple of days, and see how I feel.

But, unless something changes, DW, I just don't see myself getting re-involved at this point. I am totally drained from these arguments, and I want to focus my energy on something different. We are not married, we are not engaged, and I am not up to starting to see therapists right now and saving this relationship. That is a bottomless pit of energy and money and pain, and I don't feel like going there at this point. And yet I also don't feel that she and I can just start seeing each other and working this through. I paid very careful attention last night to the conversation we were having, and there is no doubt in my mind that despite repeating my position five times on both issues, she did not hear my position, because she kept clutching to her original phrase. She did acknowledge that she needs to learn to be more empathetic, but I don't believe that it is an easy thing to suddenly adopt, especially because I still don't think that she REALLY understands how it feels on my end.

So, I think after my few days apart to cool off, I will still feel that I do not want to start seeing her again. That pain has become too raw and too intense, and I can sense that we are both extremely resentful and feeling misunderstood. And that is a huge mountain to undo.

BTW, I do think that she has keeping score from the very beginning, from the second or third date where she was unhappy that I said that I missed my kids, because that meant that she "wasn't enough". While I thought that we got past that, some of her recent complaints about how her needs are always second to the kids' needs told me that she continued to feel resentful of the attention I gave them. And I am really way too tired to start rehashing all that now.

LSNE:


Interesting... G certainly would never say "You are WRONG", but she did come back with the "Well I just don't see how you can see it any other way than mine", which is a polite way of saying the same exact thing.

THAT is the underlying issue we had/have, and I think the fact that she does not even get it (even though I told her that THAT is the issue, not the prenups or the travel) tells me that we are not even closing to making any progress on that.

And like I said, I am too exhausted to keep going at this, that five hour chat last night wiped me out and showed how ineffective our communication is.

And yet, despite all this, I adore this woman, as I always did. Go figure <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Hey Wiftty, good to hear from you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I actually have a surprisingly good insight into her past relationships, there were a total of two in her life <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. A BF of 10 years, who broke up with her, and a short relationship of 6 months, with a guy who had some serious mental issues, from what I gather. Then me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

But I agree, she sees things totally differently from me, and that is the essence of the problem. She keeps repeating over and over "I do so much for you" (heck, she made a list!), and "you won't do the one thing I ask you to do" (the frequent travel back East). She has latched on to this mindset like glue, and nothing I say budges her position or makes her say "oh, hmm, let me think". Like I said, she keeps repeating that I "won't spend time with her family", without acknowledging any of my explanations or concerns, as if it's simply me deciding to be selfish. She may be right, I dunno, but I certainly don't see it that way.

I am also thinking that perhaps this is an indication of how much we (MB crowd) are ahead of the general populace <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Between our marriages and divorces, having kids, and then many of us having avidly read self help books, relationship guides (real ones, not the Redbook crap), and posting on these forums, perhaps we have developed skills and understandings that simply do not naturally exist in the dating world. And maybe this is what I am seeing in G, that she is like most of us were when we got married the first time - foolish and idealistic <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I dunno, I certainly will not make a claim of superiority in understanding relationships, but I do wonder.

AGG

There is something in her past at play here AGG, and she's looking to you to fix it.

At some point in her life, someone significant in her life made her feel unimportant and so in order for her to feel "whole" and complete, she needs to know, to feel that someone, YOU, the man she sees herself long term w/, places her wants and desires above all else.....

Ask her about it.

That'll be .02 for my armchair psychology session for today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

BTW,I think this is right on too....

This isn't my usual board, but it's an intersting thread and I have insomnia.

So I have one question about the "scorecard". Are the things on her scorecard things you've asked her to do?

DW:

Hehe, I don't need to ask her about it. I know the answer is yes, she wants to be above all else. That is what she said from the start, when she thought she should be "enough", such that I wouldn't think about my kids when I was with her. I thought she backed away from that, but in the end, I feel that she feels that she is always second fiddle to my kids. I worked hard to not have that be the case, but I cannot change her view of things, not would I change my love for my kids.

Dobie:

Glad you stopped by <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Some yes, some no. She feels that she has done tons for me - spent time with my kids, drove down here through traffic to be with us, not done fun things she would normally do because we were with my kids, etc. Moreover, here is AGG muttering about clutter, cooking, cleaning, and other partnership tasks that she should improve on. And on her side, she feels the only thing she asked is for me to go visit her family several times a year.

I am not going to argue that; this scorecard is hers to own in her head.

In my view, the truth is different though. I have different expectations from my partner; I expect a true partner (not a princess), who would contribute to running the household, in a whatever way she wanted. So I feel that I made accommodations from the outset, due to G's routine of sleeping in two hours more than me, and then taking two hours to get ready. I accepted that. But, I would then hope that when she did come down, she'd say "Hey, guys, I'll make us all lunch", or "I'll go grocery shopping", instead of "What's for lunch?", or "What are we doing today?", or "OK, I'll sit and watch TV while you are mucking with the car, then we can do something together". That is the source of my resentment building.

I am still processing things, and may have a few ups/downs as I digest it all. But I think in the end, I am feeling more and more that we just don't get each other, and that is not something that additional dating or even therapy can help; it is a more inherent incompatibility.

AGG

We're into classic MB stuff. Sounds like Domestic Support is an EN for you and it's not one she's enthusiastic about.

I asked about the scorecard because I wondered if maybe one of her ENs is Admiration and she's trying to get it the old fashioned way. By being a bit of a martyr. Do you think she's holding a grudge because she doesn't feel the efforts are appreciated, or do you think she's doing things to build up a credit on her scoresheet to be redeemed upon demand?

If it takes her two hours to get ready, maybe she's trying hard to meet that Attractiveness need, whether it's a high priority for you or not.

I think you're wise to proceed with caution.

AGG,
Run, run like the wind. Someone who wants to “be above all else” to the extent that she feels hurt when you miss your children doesn’t have good personal boundaries. No one person can be everything in another person’s life. We mere mortals aren’t enough. Period. That’s why we have hobbies, friends, work, work associates and pets. Someone who expects to be “enough” all by herself is often looking for someone who will be “enough” for her all by himself. The person is looking for someone to “complete” them, not “complement” them. (See various loooong threads on this topic for more detail.)

I think this also may play into her “I do everything for you, I sacrifice everything for you and you do nothing for me.” Hmm. Nice dates, lots of time together, long telephone conversations. Probably some affection since you seem affectionate, and who knows what else. Hmph, that doesn’t sound like nothing to me.

Of course, my little amateur psychoanalysis may be completely wrong, and it could simply be that you don’t meet her ENs in the way she wants them met. And since you aren’t married, I can’t see any reason why you should once again try to make dramatic changes just to meet someone else’s ENs. That would just build a lot of resentment in you.

BIAS ALERT: I’m totally prejudiced against people who want to keep talking and talking about an issue when they aren’t willing to brainstorm solutions. B. used to do that to wear me down until I gave in to whatever he wanted.

AGG,
Just a few comments from a newbie. Reading your posts above was a bit of deja vu for me as a lot of the issues you raised, mirrored my own post divorce relationship. I have shared custody of 2 young children after my divorce. She was a younger divorced woman who did not have any children of her own...and I honestly feel that one only loses one's self centredness after you have your own children. My (now ex)GF always made me feel that there was a competition between herself and my children for my love, attention, money etc. Whenever, she did not get what she wanted, she would use ultimatums. To avoid confrontation, I would often back down and give in, but the resentment eventually built up to an extent that I would deliberately not tell her things..the death knell of any relationship. She could not understand why I missed the children on my non-custody W/E's when I had her company, resented the fact that I "used up all my energy" when I had the kids so that when I didn't have the kids around, I was too tired to do anything with her. I was afraid of being alone, and let the realtionship meander on for nearly a year, when I knew it was doomed after 3-4 months...oh, and with the prenuptial, my divorce lawyer said "you know, you can't keep dividing your assets by 1/2....you will eventually have nothing left". I just couldn't risk losing my house as the children need a roof over their heads, and like yours, my GF was extremely offended when I raised the prenup thing. It has been 2.5 months since we went our separate ways, and my heart still cries out at times, but I made the right decison to let her go...I'm not saying that you should do the same but I feel that your situation sounds so similar in many ways to mine...

Maybe, I should only date women with child/ren from now on..LOL. perhaps, they will understand better...

The ex's aunt that I mentioned earlier, the never married, no kids aunt? I can picture her stubborn face when I read some of the words you attribute to G. She would also get a look that said to me she wasn't listening because she was so clearly right.

That G has said she needs to learn to empathize sounds like it's not a new concept to her. Yet here she is still needing to develope empathy. Perhaps she lacks the will to truly try or doesn't see the need.

I have a never married no children friend. She's a good friend & I love her dearly, however....She has said she expects to be treated like a princess because she will treat her man as a prince. She is waiting for the man who will be all to her, sweep her off her feet, she "will not settle". She's 53. My ears always perk up when people say the "won't settle". What I think that often means is they have strict criteria from which there will be no compromise. They are unwilling to take each person & evaluate from there. Yes, we need some definate guidelines.

We all need boundries & we all come from experiences which will inform our decisions. But huge strict lists where we check off must haves & can't live withouts severly limit who we might find makes a good partner. If we gave more wiggle room, if we were to be more open, we would all benefit. I think you've done this with.

GG, I'm sorry G won't hear what you're saying & is insisting her way is the only thing she'll accept. It sounds like she may be looking forward to your next talk hoping she will finally get you to move to her position. I understand your exhaustion.

This all sounds like deeply ingrained character issues. This may simply be G. Unfortunate but true.

The prenup...perhaps you should decide that you do or don't want one, regardless of the person you're with, then have one made up. Her jumping one the "roadmap to divorce".."why don't you trust me?"..."why do you need to protect your kids form me?"...could all be answered had she an understanding of what divorce does to families.

Not necessarily - some of us single, childless women really like to spend time with children. Speaking only for myself, I truly respect a man who takes his responsibility of his children seriously. I actually encourage the man I'm in a relationship with currently to spend as much time as possible with his kids (they are older) because soon they will be off on their own - and I would never expect to be "above" those kids. I think the difference might be (and I'm no expert) that some women feel that their relationships with men are the "be all and end all" - maybe they don't have much of a full life OUTSIDE of their relationships? I'm divorced, no kids - and have lots of outside interests and an interesting job - so while I really enjoy my relationship - it's not my LIFE - it's just the icing on the cake!

Dobie:

It's interesting, because I think of all ENs I have, DS has got to be at the bottom. I argued this point on this board earlier, when I was trying to rationalize why I should keep seeing G, because she met most of the other ENs with flying colors. But at the same time, the extreme to which she does not do ANY DS must have become an LB to me over time.


I'm pretty sure she does, and this is the scorecard thing. The sad thing is that I feel the same way about her, because I feel that she appreciates very little of my efforts, so of course that just makes us both withdraw. The difference, IMO, is that I am willing and trying to engage her in discussion so that we could talk about these things, but all I felt in return was her trying to prove herself right, instead of listening to what I was saying. Yet I am sure she would say the same about me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.

GG:


I think that this is what I meant when I said that G seems to have the Cinderella vision of a man taking her away and making her feel whole. I cannot do that for her, unfortunately. Perhaps someone else, with no kids or other "distractions" can, but not me.


Me neither... Which is why I am saying that if I did my best for the past few months, and it simply ain't good enough for her or is unappreciated, well, then it most likely will NEVER be enough. I am keenly aware of that, and it is one of the biggest red flags I have. The only bigger red flag is that SHE has the same feeling of being unappreciated and misunderstood. Yikes.


L4N:

Wow, I must say that this left me speechless. I think this mirrors what I have with G 100%. Unfortunately, I thought that we did get past the "kid" envy/jealousy early on, after she met them, became a part of their daily life, and started building a relationship with them. Only now do I see that while she did all that, she also built resentment on what she was "missing out on" by doing that.


And I went out of my way to be understanding of G feeling offended by the prenup thought... I went out of my way validating that, and simply added that I have a responsibility to my small dependendts who truly DEPEND on me for survival and quality of life, no different than wearing a seat belt when you get in the car. But she did not make any apparent effort to hear me, it was all about "why are you protecting the kids from me, I am not your ex, I am reasonable, why don't you trust me????". Round and round we went, and got nowhere in feeling understood or affirmed. That, to me, spelled big trouble, much bigger than the actual prenup or family visits.

nams:

And you know, this really makes me sad. To see G get so frustrated and upset that I did not see it her way, which was so obviously better than mine, etc. I just wanted to shake her and get it into her head that there just might be TWO views on some things; not that my view is "righter", but that at least there were TWO views; but I couldn't. It was sad for me to see her frustration with me, while the problem so clearly lied with HER inability to grow.


And frankly, since I am not married to her, I don't feel the energy and the desire or the obligation to "hang in there" while she tries to grow that way, which may or may not lead to any real changes. I want to be with someone who is already able to empathize and listen to my thoughts, not someone who "might" get there. That is the beauty of just "dating" vs. trying to save a marriage.


The funny thing is that the one and only thing that she claims is a sign of my insensitivity to her needs is the "extended family" thing. To her, it's simply a matter of me not willing to do anything for her, which to her is a red flag for the future. Never mind that I explained to her how I love her family but hate air travel (e.g. there are some possibilities for compromise, between some visits back there, some visits from them here, etc). Never mind that my son's birthday is right at the time of one of her "non-negotiable" visits back there. Never mind that she goes back there for EVERY holiday and three day weekend. Never mind that we wouldn't get Thankgsiving, Christmas, or other holidays with MY family (after all, "we can do Thanksgiving on any weekend of the year with your family, and your family does not celebrate Christmas", ignoring the fact that we still like to hang out during the holidays as a family). No, she does not see any of this, and simply views it as "AGG does not want to do the one single thing I ask of him").


I'm sure she does. She emailed me saying how she hopes to continue the discussion, with therapists if needed. But I am too exhausted, because we talk and she does not listen or hear me. We have discussed this family thing above 100 times, but she would not acknowledge the simple things I just described above; to her, it is still "he wouldn't do the one simple thing that is important to me". And that pointless and endless discussion completely drained me.


I agree. I am taking some time to think, but the more I think, the more I see that we are not meant for each other. We loved the visions we had of each other, but I doun't think we'll love the "real" us.

AGG

Therapists? How long did you date? Is she nuts?

I did lots of marriage counseling because I had a lot at stake. If I had to do it for a relationship, I'd know the relationship wasn't meant to be.

AGG, I'm sorry it didn't work out.

Hi AGG,

I only skimmed this tonight and I haven't read the last pages so I hope I am not coming in on a new twist...

Anyway, just thinking...When I read your post, I had to wonder if all this isn't built up resentment because you don't want children. G wants a sacrifice as she feels she has sacrificed, she some how thinks this may help her to accept her sacrifice because she knows you will be giving up things making this agreement.

When she said, "I do everything for you." It made me wonder again if deep down she wasn't considering her "sacrifice" of no children. That is "everything" for her.

I would think if I am right that eventually her resentment may grow more and she may want even bigger sacrifices until she feels the sacrifice is even.

I am exhausted so tomorrow my reply may sound really far fetched to me.

Take care and good luck with your decisions,

Anna

AGG,

I tend to relate to you and G because I met my guy around the same time you guys met. We hit some difficult issues early-on like you and G did, yet we both worked through those.

I've thought of you guys often. And yes, I'm glad you've come out of your "cave" ! Is this the MB site??!!

Okay, since this is near and dear to my heart as me and my SO (which I'm so smitten with) had this somewhat heated (albeit uncomfortable) "discussion" last night.

Sometimes, I tend to get hung up on a phrase or words. And vice versa. You keep bringing up the "I do everything for you" statement that G made. Has she REPEATEDLY said that, or is this what you hear? My SO said I used a word last night that is just not in my vocab. I teach Kindergarten and I use my words very wisely. I sincerely think he THOUGHT I said it, due to past hurts because his ww used this word constantly as emotional abuse. I think he felt uncomfortable in our discussion and perhaps unintentionally substituted that word. Is this possible with you and G? Likewise, sometimes my SO says one thing, yet my head/heart is "conditioned" to hear another due to my past, so that's what I register. Envision Charlie Brown's 1st Grade Teacher (not Kindergarten, of course!) saying "Blah, Blah, Blah".

I guess I just hate to see you chuck this. Relationships take work. It's not all easy. I so know you know this. My SO said to me last night that he didn't know if he had the "energy" to work on issues. Let me say "OUCH" while I SIGH and PUKE. I think that men can view any sort of discourse/disagreement/discussions as being totally draining...it just wipes them out. Yet, women, freakin' anaylze EVERYTHING. ME<-----GUILTY.

Before you throw it away, give it a break. A long weekend. Perhaps text a "hi" but back off. That will give you both time to just breathe. And think.

Think not just with your HEAD, but with your HEART.

UpandRunning

Up and Running, do you really think a relationship in its early stages, should take work? If it takes work early on, how much more work will it take later?

While several months is enough time to start to really see the person, it's still early days. There isn't the time investment and shared experiences that a relationship lasting years has.

Personally, I don't think a relationship should take "work." Courage, yes. Time, definitely. Effort, occassionally. But the kind of work we all did to save our marriages? No way.

I don't think one person should dramatically change his behavior in order to meet another person's needs UNLESS they are married. To turn yourself inside out to keep a relationship going is not a good idea in my humble opinion. And that's what G seems to want.

Actually, I think she wants her own family, and was naive enough to believe she could rid herself of that desire or perhaps, that AGG would change his mind.

Anna:

You know, I am still racking my brain trying to figure all this out. My stomach is in knots, I am shaking, and yet I find my blood is boiling at times. I am having a very hard time processing all this and understanding why I am so unsettled. I tried composing three separate notes to explain this (to myself), ranging from I just couldn't accept all the lifestyle differences (sleep, getting ready, clutter, energy differences), but that wasn't it. I tried to convince myself that it was the whole lack of empathy thing, the way she didn't hear me, but I don't think that was it either. I thought maybe it's a combination of both, or something else. I am just so confused, I am so in love with her, and yet something just totally snapped in that long chat on Monday, and I cannot fix it.


I thought about this too, and I think it may be close, but I don't think it is "it" either.

What is beginning to gel in my head (and I reserve the right to change this by the afternoon <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) is that it all comes down to the same old thing, the one we had a couple of brushes with early on but I thought we got over, but apparently did not - her vision of a competition between her and my kids.

I told her way back that it is a dealbreaker for me, that I would not be in a relationship with someone who viewed the two relationships as competition. And for the most part, G has been great about it. Aside from the very early example ("I should be enough for you!!"), she's been great.

She's been so attentive to them, so wonderful to them, it has been incredible.

But, what I see now, is that when she gets frustrated about anything, that is the first thing she brings up, which shows that deep down inside (and probably not all that deep, but rather just below the surface) she is keeping score.

So it's no surprise that no matter what issue comes up, she brings the kids into it. When she felt I was not being affectionate enough, she accused me of scratching my daughter's back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />; when we went to see a ballet and took my daughter, she later viewed it as me and her taking my daughter to the ballet, not us all going to enjoy the ballet.

But of course none of it compares to the Monday chat, where she started unloading the whoppers that it's always me and the kids against her, and why don't I like to go out on nights when we have the kids (and leave them with their mom), and that she doesn't get to do things she'd normally do, and why do I want to protect the kids from her with the prenup, and what accommodations she's having to make for the kids etc etc.

I'm sure she thinks that she is not complaining about these things, but just brings them up because I do not appreciate them, but that is not how I see it. To me, that is not an area for discussion, as my relationship with G is totally separate from the relationship with the kids. And I am tired of always bringing this back up and having me be a hostage to how I interact with my kids.

Anyway, that is what I think now.

I think it all comes down to what L4N said earlier, about his relationship with a childless woman. I think this is what is at play here. And really, that is a dealbreaker for me. And since we are past the initial stages, it can no longer be excused with "oh, I didn't know, give me another chance". I don't want to feel like I am punishing a misbehaving kid for a simple transgression, but I also feel that this is not something that would go away without some serious adjustments on her part. And perhaps mine too; but I don't feel like making any adjustments at this point when it comes to my kids - they are happy and sweet, and that's the way I like it.

AGG

AGG,
I really can empathise with your pain and turmoil as I went through similar issues that you are dealing with now....someone above mentioned "counselling"...well, my exGF and I went for some counselling as I wanted to be sure that I had given the relationship every chance to work...well saying that it was a waste of time would be unfair but my exGF only heard what she wanted to from the counsellor...her attitude towards the children never changed. She wanted to be "no: 1" in my life not "no: 3". She would not accept that I had three "no: 1"s in my life, and that my love for the chidren was different to my love for her....and I did love her a lot!! (and that's probably why I still think of her almost daily even though it's 2.5 months since we went our separate ways, and the pain is still there).I know you are deciding what you should do now, but only you can make that decision; listen to yourself, your close friends and colleagues if you have discussed it with them; ultimately, do what you think is best for your kids...it only took me 9 months to end the relationship once I realized that we were probably not suited for each other, especially as I did not like her attitude towards the kids when she was angry and annoyed with me.


Thank you so much <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> for posting this....maybe you are the type of woman I need to be looking for! On a serious note, I think you are probably absolutely right with: