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Yes AGG, I think you're definately onto something here. From my perspective G acquiesces hoping things will change to her view in the future. In other words she is not enthusiastic about the conclusions you've reached for certain topics.
One poster said you keep coming back to certain phrases. I think you do because they are very telling. They contain the truth about what G feels not what she wishes to be.
Her phrase "Aren't I enough for you?" speaks volumes about how she views her place in your life. She expects to be first above the children & it seems she's not as comfortable as she thought she'd be making room for your kids in her/your couple life.
For me this is a core feeling about how she veiws herself & what she expects from a relationship. Your children will always be a part of your life even when they are gone from your home. They will always have needs & wants you'll want to meet. Will you always have to weigh the two? Will she always, perhaps silently, keep score?
Formerly nam
here since 07/31/03
coastal, CT
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GreenGables,
I totally agree with you. What I was trying to say about the "work" part of a relationship is that I think AGG and G have "worked" through some important issues. I don't think a new relationship should require work, drama, and stress. Yet, IMO, this isn't a "new" relationship. AGG is somewhat vested, although nothing like a marriage. And heck, he admits he's crazy for her.
If I had to consider counseling while dating someone I wouldn't be able to run away fast enough. Now that is too much "work" for a dating relationship. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
UpandRunning
BS married 18 years in addition to 8 years dating since HS '04 discovered his other life w/multiple A's '05 divorced 2 wonderful girls, 19 and 17 Phil. 4:13
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I see what you're saying. Actually, I consider AGG's relationship on the new side. Not as new as mine, which is now... Oh my. It's now mid-way through the 8th month.
But then, I'm admittably gunshy.
Divorced. 2 Girls Remarried 10/11/08 Widowed 11/5/08 Remarrying 12/17/15
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I can very much relate to AGG's plight...I have been involved with a man for 3 years, known for 6 and I have issues that I have to work thru with him - I can't move to his existing house he shared with his X.
I am starting counseling mainly for me...to understand why I feel this way and to hopefully improve the person that I am and will continue to become post divorce - so I don't think of it as "work" in regards to the relationship...as much as improving of myself and maybe "seeing" his side of it with the help of a professional.
It all boils down to how much love there is and how much you want to improve, understand, and commit to a relationship...some relationships are harder than others but I have not given up as of yet.
I breathe in, I breathe out, put one foot in front of the other...
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Hiya AGG - Haven't had a chance to really type out some thoughts on your sitch but I think I'll be able to later this evening. You know I've reconciled and we're right in the thick of postnupping...I'll hurry back soon as I can.
Consider how hard it is to change yourself and you'll understand what little chance you have in trying to change others.
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Lucks = Our ever, eternal optimist... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Hiya AGG - Haven't had a chance to really type out some thoughts on your sitch but I think I'll be able to later this evening. You know I've reconciled and we're right in the thick of postnupping...I'll hurry back soon as I can.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. ~~Socrates
The secret to happiness is wanting what you already have. ~anonymous
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Och, AGG you are a bit all over the place and I can really see how much you are struggling w/ this.
Sigh.
I still hope in my heart you guys can work thru this, but if the real issue is what you've boiled it down to in your latest bit, well yes, it would be a dealbreaker for me too. For all really, I would think, who have children. It's a no brainer. You can't be w/ someone who's feels they are in constant competition w/ your kids and then expects you to even up the score w/ demands and lines in the sand.
Oy.
I have a friend who recently married w/in the year, who's realationship is suffering greatly b/c of kid issues. Sad part is, they both came into the realationship w/ one child each, and her husband is jealous of her son, and she is jealous of his daughter. I don't get it myself. Not at all. Your children are your children are your children. Period.
I feel your pain and frustration AGG.....
Grande hugs!
DW
DW--BW....separated/divorced since 2003 Re-married 7/09!
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AGG, there is no need for a deep explanation to G. I think a short and sweet discussion and decision by you to remain friends, but not romantically linked, is the best answer. . .
that way, if she does decide to ponder your relationship, she knows where you stand, and maybe she will come around (after call her sister and discussing it with her) . . . but you are not going to compromise certain values that you hold core as a parent to some wonderful kids. . .
good luck, but don't agonize over it, because you might be spo.. .-hun. . . .. I didn't say the whole word!
best strong and show your moral leadership good luck
wiftty
Learning from your own mistakes creates experience, learning from books creates knowledge, combining the two together creates wisdom => You start with a full bag of luck, and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.
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that she doesn't get to do things she'd normally do, she doesn't like changing her lifestyle and expectations of marriage. . simple as that. . . everything else is emotional manipulation tactics to get you to not be a changing force in her life. . . time to end. . . sorry, great experience though. wifty
Learning from your own mistakes creates experience, learning from books creates knowledge, combining the two together creates wisdom => You start with a full bag of luck, and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.
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Well, either she reads MB, or she is really good at going back over things and doing some critical thinking. Here is an excerpt of an e-mail she sent me today. Keep in mind that I have not given her any insight into what is in my head, so she had to come up with all this on her own. It sure shows that she at least understands how her actions hurt me, but I don't have the confidence that she will be able to change them. And of course, none of this addresses the lifestyle differences that are bothering me so much: I’ve been thinking about my own behavior during the past few weeks and during our discussions, and I think I probably say things which come across differently than I intend them to and leave you with a mistaken impression of the way I feel about some things. For instance, I think I end up bringing up your kids and family in a way that I shouldn’t. First of all, I love your kids and family. They are great people, and I enjoy spending time with them and being a part of their lives and having them be a part of mine. Sometimes I bring them up in a comparative sense when I’m trying to make a point, and I think that might leave you with an impression that I have a problem with them or the time you spend with them. I absolutely don’t, but sometimes it’s the only way I can think of to make a separate point about my needs. This, however, gets neither of us anywhere so I should just try to explain my needs some other way and leave others out of it. I actually feel lucky to have shared all the times with your kids/family that I have. When I’ve referred to making an “effort” to do things with you and the kids, I haven’t mean that I didn’t enjoy our activities; it’s just that being with people for an introvert like me requires more effort (to be upbeat, good company, etc.) than it might for an extrovert. In fact, I’ve sincerely been looking forward to going up to your sister's to see her new baby. That to me would be a lot of fun for all of us so I hope we can still do that.
Anyway, getting back to my behavior… given the amount of hurt you feel, I think I must come on too strongly when I’m making a point. I know I had an issue with this when I was with <XBF>, and I thought I had toned it down quite a bit but there must be something I do when I’m speaking my mind that comes across as insensitive. I’d like to work on that. One part of this insensitivity may make you feel like I underappreciate you. For instance, I think it’s wonderful how you’re so supportive of my relationship with my family. Many men would not be okay with their partner traveling back East the way I do. You’re so sweet to be okay with that. And when I keep pushing and pushing for you to go back with me, that appreciation and all the good feelings I have about you are nowhere in sight so that must feel pretty bad to you. And I’m very sorry to put you in that position. I think you also feel that I’m not always open to considering or empathizing with another point of view. You’re probably right; I do feel things pretty strongly so I’d like to work on that as well.
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Wow. She's scared sh**less. I'm so glad you posted this....it screams. And not "I'm so sorry" or "We can get through this, can we compromise?" I do feel things pretty strongly so I’d like to work on that as well. Like to??? How about NEED to? HAVE to? To make YOU happy, WANT to? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I vote don't reply. No contact. I'm putting down $$$ that the emails will get NICER and NICER. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Not being mean, but I so didn't like this email. UpandRunning
BS married 18 years in addition to 8 years dating since HS '04 discovered his other life w/multiple A's '05 divorced 2 wonderful girls, 19 and 17 Phil. 4:13
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I think I must come on too strongly when I’m making a point. I know I had an issue with this when I was with <XBF>,. I'm wondering, did xbf have children? No doubt, G has been processing. I'd say she's scrambling, searching, knowing that she may have lost a great guy. She mentioned she's sorry for the position she put you in, and she'd like to work on a couple of things. However, for me, it seemed kind of shallow. Granted, it's an excerpt, but it lacked the compassion that I would have wanted if it were me. For me, it comes across as someone who has a hard time saying, *I'm sorry* or, *I'm wrong*. I'm imagining you're losing sleep and your thoughts are consumed over/with G, and I feel for you. I wish the best for you and whatever will come of this relationship between you and G. Stay honest with yourself, keeping in mind the questions/answers that are most important to you. Karona
Divorced 12/17/2003
Formerly KEB1205 Reg 9/02
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AGG, I’ve heard the kind of thoughts in the first part of the letter before. Basically, while it was an admission of a tactical mistake, she’s saying you misinterpreted what she was saying. I doubt that’s the case. My bet is you understood her meaning very well
I have a bunch of other thoughts, but after writing them down, I’m not sure if I’m jumping to conclusions since G’s email reminded me of my X so much.
Divorced. 2 Girls Remarried 10/11/08 Widowed 11/5/08 Remarrying 12/17/15
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Well, I just sent her a note telling her where I am at - that I am not up to continuing the relationship at this point. I acknowledged her efforts at understanding how her behavior hurts me, but I also said that I cannot be in a relationship where that behavior occurs and those words are said, even if in the heat of an argument. I also said that I am far from certain that the lifestyle differences can be overcome without resenment.
In the end, I said that I am not sure that this is the final definite answer, but that for now I am definitely not up for continuing the relationship. Which is exactly how I feel in my gut - I know I cannot see her now, but I am not convinced that things would not be different in a week, a month, or a year. I just can't figure this out all that quickly. And I still love and miss her.
We'll see what she says <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. I'm sure she's quite crushed.
AGG
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Well, darn, here is what got crossed up in the e-mail traffic, just as I sent her mine... I know that she genuinely believes all that she says, but I still have major doubts that all these changes she is making "for me" will not lead to resentment, since they are not her "natural" behavior. I think she is capitulating on too many things to not feel resentment at some point (I know I would). I guess I'd want proof, as in waiting and seeing her place become what she says she wants it to be, or her patterns become what she says she wants them to be, etc. Even if it does take a year of us being apart, without the pressure or expectations of a relationship. Sort of like "great, good goals, I'd be happy to try again once you've achieved them".. Thoughts? I love and respect and admire and can relate to the choices you make in your life and to your character for lack of a better term. Even though it's not apparent when we disagree on a subject, I do feel that even if we were to not do things the way I'd prefer that your way isn't really all that different and I believe that you make excellent, sound, responsible choices that definitely have value, and it feels secure and comfortable to be with someone whose choices/decisions I respect that much.
I know one significant difference we have is in our ability to maintain a tidy household. But it is an achievable goal of mine to get my place straightened up and to keep it that way. You're a great motivator in that sense, and I love having someone in my life who motivates me in such a positive way. I've continued to work on organizing the catalogs that we sorted through so I'm making some progress there. Not that there isn't a long way to go. But I'm coming around to realizing that I've got a truly unmanageable amount of stuff and some of it (actually, a lot of if) has got to go. It does feel good like you said to get rid of things... it is quite freeing.
Another very positive effect you've had on me is on my sleep schedule. I'd still like to work on shifting it a little earlier but the good news is that I feel better all around since I've been getting to bed earlier and getting up earlier. I feel more energized and even though you probably can't tell I do tend to get more things done.
Also, I spend less time "getting ready" in the morning. I'm sure you can't even imagine that it could take me any longer than it already does, but I used to spend close to 3 hours getting ready and now I've gotten it down to an hour and a half or a little more. That's quite a difference! In fact, one of my sisters said to me, "Does AGG realize how much you've changed since you've been with him?" I don't know if you do realize it, but you've had a great effect on my confidence to go out without any makeup or without styling my hair. You make me feel beautiful no matter what I do or don't do to myself.
So there's already been growth in 3 significant areas, and I believe there's still room for more particularly since I view the changes I've made as being very positive. Thank you for being such a great influence on me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I truly appreciate it and love you for it.
Another thing that makes you so special to me is the great father that you are to your kids... you're so loving and caring with them. And you're so generous with your time and attention to them. You make sure their needs are met. And your parenting skills are very apparent in the people your kids are developing into... they're respectful, responsible, strong, thoughtful, kind and loving. Kids any parent would be extremely proud of.
And I love you for the way you treat me... with concern for my well being, with thoughtfulness, with generosity, with understanding, with love. You make me feel so special and so very loved. I know you've been left with the impression that you're lacking in the area of making me feel loved but that's not the case. I do feel a tremendous amount of love from you. And it shows in the way you treat me. The things I've expressed in the past few weeks are not really indicative of feeling a lack of love from you in an overall sense and maybe I'm paying too much attention to details but there are just some moments when I feel insecure. And that insecurity I think stems from a fear of having my needs get lost in the shuffle of your and the kids' needs. I'm not saying it's necessarily a rational feeling but it's something I hope you and I can deal with together at some point. You really have been so generous and understanding with me, and there just may be some things I need to better accept about being with someone who has children that I haven't really understood yet.
I've also rethought the whole going back East thing... maybe there are some creative solutions we can come up with. There's a slight chance I could persuade my family to come out here sometimes. And I do want you to know that spending special occasions with you (like New Year's and <your son's> birthday) is important to me so there's stuff to be worked out there and I realize it's not a given that we'll be able to be at my family's during that time. I am truly sorry for not being more understanding of your feelings during our discussions on this topic.
Well, those are the thoughts and feelings I wanted to share with you, you special, wonderful man. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Again, I hope I'm not disrupting your time to think.
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I haven't weighed in here, yet, but have been following your sitch.
When I read your original message I thought, "My gosh that's demanding and selfish - expecting a partner to spend EVERY holiday with HER family and to heck with his..." My family is VERY close and they all live 1500 miles away from me. I no sooner expect to spend every holiday with them than they do with me. Sounds very immature and unbending. Additionally, my son comes first in my life over everyone and everything else. He is almost 5 years old and NO ONE had better ask me to miss my son's birthday. I have even missed significant business meetings that would have required me to be traveling away from home on my son's birthday.
Then, I continued reading and thought to myself, "There's a reason this woman is 40 and has only had 3 significant relationships in her life - either she's 1) VERY picky, 2) ugly as heck - inside and out (which very clearly she isn't basis your previous posts) or 3) she is VERY hard work.
Finally, I read her last 2 e-mails to you and thought, "Good Lord is she needy. She knows she's "rocked the boat" and is in danger of losing you, so now she is bending to be everything she thinks you want her to be just to keep you. When I was much younger I did that in several relationships and found that, after awhile, I 1) reverted to my old habits/persona feeling I had "proven" myself, 2) resented the person for expecting me to "change to fit their mold," or 3) all of the above.
I think you have made a very wise and insightful assessment and decision.
Regards,
Brit's Brat-45 Divorced 5/04 DS-4.5
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AGG,
It seems G needs to take the advice we give each other...be the person you want to be before you start looking for a relationship.
G and I are about the same age. Change is hard. It's not impossible but it doesn't happen overnight. I think your comment was right on...she isn't the person for you right now, but that doesn't mean she won't be a year from now. You've spent a lot of time working on yourself and can probably see the difference. Thanks to you, G is just getting started. If she truly likes what she sees, she'll keep it up. W/out telling some stranger on a forum to break up w/his GF, maybe you would be doing her a favor to step back and let her continue on her own for a while.
Best of luck to you.
I want to thank you for posting because I am learning a lot. X was a conflict avoider and my biggest worry is that I'll end up dating a CA w/out knowing it because we'll be having so much fun there won't be much conflict. No CAs in your sitch, but not much conflict either. I am learning from your posts that even though there may not be much conflict, there is always something you can find to gauge how you'll handle it as a couple (as long as you don't sweep it under the rug). Thanks again.
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No time to post, but I wanted to say that G's last email made it so clear how much she does love you and how much she values you as a person. This whole sitch has made me so sad! You both sound like really great people who love one another but I do agree and worry about this think she is capitulating on too many things to not feel resentment at some point (I know I would). Also, I guess I'd want proof, as in waiting and seeing her place become what she says she wants it to be, or her patterns become what she says she wants them to be, etc. she must want these changes FOR HERSELF, because these are goals she has for herself and from the looks of things, I don't think they were until you came along. Big difference. Gotta run but of course will be back w/ more of my invaluable opinions and insights..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Hugs!
DW--BW....separated/divorced since 2003 Re-married 7/09!
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Hey AGG,
Been reviewing the first post and the last two post from G's E-mails tonight.
Here are my thougths...on the last two emails, I think she is acting fairly normal, trying to show you the positive things that has come out of the relationship, that she is growing with you in it, reminding you that you both enjoy being together at times by talking about a future adventure. However, here's the thing that is nagging at me...
She's still missing a lot of the "point". She states that she fails to have you see her "point". Like in this sentence, she stated, "Anyway, getting back to my behavior… given the amount of hurt you feel, I think I must come on too strongly when I’m making a point."
She's missing the point of her "behavior", it's not that she came on too strongly in making a point, it's the "point" itself was wrong. If she would have said, "I was entirely selfish and not looking at "us" as a family some day, I was demanding, I should never use the "I gave up having children for our relationship I deserve this" comment" etc. Instead she needs to realize she made a choice to not have children and be in love with a wonderful man instead, it was a trade off she chose... Then, after this, she would have been more on target.
So here's my idea of a more healthy future marriage with blended families.
Both have to have a mind set changes, it's no longer her family, your family, it will be "our family".
Compromise begins, you lose a little of your luxury of having very little travel by air, she loses a little of her luxury of seeing the family on the opposite coast on every holidays. Her new future step son now has to be considered for his birthday that she wants to help celebrate every year, while also, you have to get to know your brand new relatives as well. You both come up with ways to visit both families at holidays, with any important holidays being alternated year after year as to where they will be because one extended family is not above the other, yet you know your marriage and children/step children needs must take priority. You both know that these plans are flexible and can change as the family and life situations change.
I don't think G will get this quickly but I do think it could happen...I said this long ago in another thread, I think G needs to make some major changes, get herself organized on her own, want to do it for herself, make the changes when single because then you know it's sincere and she is doing it for herself not as a temporary fix to try to "land her man", and then after a lot of growing, she'll be ready for a more healthy relationship to continue to grow.
I get the feeling though that this relationship just isn't over. You love her and perhaps she can change with you in her life and dating her, it could happen, I wouldn't rule that out.
Night AGG,
Anna
Last edited by Anna2000; 06/24/06 01:51 AM.
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AGG, Having read the excerpts of the emails you posted, I think you should give the relationship with G a chance to work...I think analysing every point / statement in the email to the nth degree gets you nowhere. I sense that she does love you alot, and it sounds that she is considering some compromise, esp with regards to the chidren. L4N
Single Again @ 39...
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