Yup, I completeley agree. And to be clear, I am not saying that it's just G who needs to learn to negotiate, I also want to polish up my skills. For whatever reason, it seems to me that when we come across a difference of opinion, I try to see her point of view, and she does not try to see mine. And that perceived lack of empathy really bothers me, because if you are not willing to hear your partner out and understand where they are coming from, then you can't negotiate. She basically acknowledged this trait in her e-mail, when she said that she tends to come across very strongly when making a point. But again, I am not saying that I am an ace negotiator and she is a failure, just that I want to hear some more empathy from her. And I would try to do the same for her.


Yes, that is soooo true <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Thanks Lexxxy, and this is exactly what I plan to do for the near future. If she does start making the promised changes, and seems to stick to them, and we do make progress in empathy and negotiation, then that'll be a good thing. But if we start spinning our wheels again, then it'd be easier to back away from the whole thing because we already would be in a less intense relationship.

AGG

Fair enough <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But seriously, I did want to make sure that people did not see this as an argument of me demanding a prenup and her resisting; it was truly a matter of me suggesting a discussion on the subject, and her declaring it "case closed" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.


OK, again, fair enough. I agree with that angle, that it may seem to her like an ultimatum. But, if that is so, that makes it that much more of a poster child for us not being able to hear each other (OK, her not being able to hear me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), because I said over and over that I it's not an ultimatum or even something that I necessarily want - that I just want to look into it, hopefully with her by my side. And it frustrates me that she hears this as me wanting a prenup. Again, it's not the prenup that bothers me, but the inability to hear each other. Yikes.

But I think I'll do what some suggested, and make an extra effort to empathize with her worries about the whole thing, so she'd know that I'd want to look out for everyone's interests, including hers.

And I think Lexxxy is also very right, that we need to drop this whole topic for now because it is sooooooo premature at this point.

AGG

AGG - I understand a pre-nup isn't the issue at the moment...I'm merely continuing some thoughts on it, which may help you if/when the subject comes up again.

You have major equity in your home. In the case of divorce, your pre-marital equity is yours. Your W in said divorcing scenario is legally entitled to marital interest which accrues monthly much like your equity builds (if she's inputting on house expenses, her marital interest is sorta like half the building monthly equity and taking into consideration a rising or falling real estate market - with consideration tossed in there for major remodeling if she can prove what money inputted was hers). Without a pre-nup in divorcing scenario, you have a real estate savvy atty figure up what her marital interest was during the marriage and you "buy her out."

In a pre-nup scenario if you want to keep the house issue entirely separate, you might want to consider paying all expenses involving the house from your own separate account (this includes any mtg payment, property tax, repairs and remodeling). W pays for half (or whatever is agreed as reasonable) the utilities which she is using also. You both sign a pre-nup that you are responsible for house expenses and W gets to set aside money each month in lieu of marital interest.

On the other hand, if what you're really trying to accomplish is ensuring your kids inherit money, you might want to consider what H and I are doing - life insurance (or some other investment avenue). That way, you might figure out a way your home belongs to both you and your new W.

Say you die, and there is no "nup" or Will in the picture - your W stands to inherit from 1/3 to 1/2, depending on your state, while your children inherit half or possibly more than half.

As Anna touched upon, a pre-nup protects your W as much or MORE than it does you. After all, she stands to lose more than you in a divorce.

Just some stuff for you to gnaw on.

I don't think that is entirely true in a community property state like CA. The minute we start co-mingling accounts, it becomes less clearcut. So, if we make a few mortgage payments from a joint account, a court could consider the asset to become community property, never mind that most of the equity was accumulated before the marriage. So this is the stuff that I am trying to understand better.


Thanks Laura, and I appreciate the advice. And I saw on your thread how much angst this caused you just recently, before you worked out a solution, which seems to be another example of why it's better to go into a marriage with an understanding about this stuff (which is what a prenup does) rather than with two different sets of expectations that will later cause rift and grief. I would, if the time ever came, want to sit down with an attorney and understand my options, and hopefully me and my W-to-be would agree on the best approach <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Great <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Then she should not be opposed to a prenup, and certainly not opposed to discussing/pondering it, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Hey AGG, Sorry if I touched a nerve. I am sure you don’t want me to “just” agree with everything…

So here we go again. Just remember this, “I want to see your relationship with G work so I am telling it as I see it.

I think that even though we should have POJAs in marriage, sometimes when our spouse is not into listening to us, then we may need to consider “Why? Is our approach wrong? Are we hurting their feelings?” And Who’s not listening to whom? G is screaming to you that she feels you do not trust her. She is probably thinking, “I trust this man to not cheat on me with the housekeeper and leave me in 5 years enough to even accept the fact that I won’t have children and that some day if I am wrong I may end up very alone.” Maybe I am missing something and last week you did explain to her and did help calm her fears that you don’t trust her. I am sure this is one area where she is getting the opinion it’s AGG and his family against me, he's makig sure I don’t get any of their money…

If I were in your shoes, instead of thinking, “This person will not even look into this with me, before I even go further with trying to get the person to listen to my side, I’d be first approaching the fears, listening to the other person’s opinon and look into my approach on the subject.” Maybe you have done this, sorry if I am off base.

Also, I know you did agree with me earlier, but again, I really think that how you presented it on your post made it seem as you were thinking only of you and your children. Your words were, “but now, having been divorced, and with two dependents and a $1M equity in my house, I thought that many would advise me to get a prenup”. Perhaps you were also thinking of G but it does not sound like it from your words and I am sure G sensed the same thing.

On the point of how it was brought up. I don’t think that is an issue here either of whether she brought it up or you brought it… The bottom line is that it’s something you wanted to review and didn’t feel like she was listening to you but I suspect very much that she didn’t feel like you were listening to her either.

On your comment about the point being she is not negotiating with you. I don’t see that as much as you do. Take for instance her saying, “Can’t we just take turns?” If you would have agreed to that, then great, that would be a “POJA”. Did you explore it or did you dismiss it as a stupid way to compromise? I wasn’t there so I am just asking.

And actually, you could POJA by taking turns on a lot. For instance what movies, what dinner places, who cooks, who clean when….and so on and so forth…Did you take Harley’s advice and think, “It’s important for G to take turns on things, I want to make G happy, and so how can we make her idea work?" Did you encourage her and let her know this is a start to POJAing and it will be a very good idea on a lot of issues but there are other issues that it won’t work with? Then explain yourself.

Remember too, Harley’s way, the books you read, these thoughts are by human beings, yes professionals but still human beings, they are not set in stone, there are many ways and many ideas from different experts to have a healthy relationship. You may like Harley's approach best but someone else may not. From my experience most people try to pick and choose points of books or advice from counselors that agree with what they want. I am not saying you do this but just be aware of it and keep in mind that perhaps G has other ideas, other ways and will need to listen to her as your relationship blooms.

On the book you read stating the only thing you can not negotiate is having babies. Not sure I agree that it can't be negotiated and if I do, I am fairly sure that there should be other things people can say "no" too as well.\

Take care,

Anna

Hey Anna,

I know you are looking out for me and my relationship with G, so please, don't worry about touching a nerve or beating me up - I most definitely am open to hearing you out. Like you said, it doesn't mean that I'll agree <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />, but I'll certainly listen.

So with that, here is what I think. You are absolutely right that G's reaction to the prenup was probably driven by fear, a fear of being squeezed out of my life, in some cold and calculating way. And I certainly tried to empathize with her fear, but I think you are right, I think I didn't do it enough. So I will make an effort to talk it through a bit more empathetically, when the topic comes up again. So thank you (and Laura <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) for holding my feet to the fire on this one.

And I am sure that you are right, that she also felt that I wasn't listening to her. But this is where I felt (and still do) a bit stuck. In this discussion, and in some others where we disagreed, I seemed to be unable to get through to her that I was on her side, that I was in fact listening and hearing her. It is as if when we start discussing a disagreement, she goes into a non-listening mode, where she keeps repeating the same thing over and over again no matter what I say. I know, you were not there, so you probbaly think that I am as guilty as she, and maybe I am, but it sure does not feel that way.

It's not just the prenup. Like I said, when we discussed the back-east visits, she went into that same "I don't see why you wouldn't want to go back with me 5-6 times??", despite the fact that I explained why I wouldn't want to. It's fine if she didn't want to buy my reasons, and we could have moved on and discussed the reasons and ways around them, but we never left the "I don't see why???" stage. Same with when we discussed the issue of me missing my kids way back when, she started saying "I just don't see why I wouldn't be enough for you??", despite the fact that I tried to explain why the two were different, and that having a GF did not "replace" my kids. Again, she didn't respond to my response, she kept asking the same original question...

And, we had the same discussion when I told her that I didn't want any more kids because I felt that I already "paid my dues" - she kept saying "I just don't see why if you love somebody you wouldn't want to have kids with them??", despite me explaining my answer over and over. Again, we did not move past the original "Why not?" question, and maybe discuss how it felt to feel like I paid my dues, or ways around that, etc, things that would have been more productive. Nope, instead she kept asking the original question, and we kept spinning our wheels. And yet the next week she said that she talked to her sister (who has two kids), who said that she understands perfectly well why a guy with two kids may not want any more, and so now G saw my point of view, despite the fact that her sister said nothing different from what I said. That actually frustrated me, because it told me that she can listen to her sister but not to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

In other words, I get the strong sense that G's admitted "strong will" manifests itself in a way that discussions turn into arguments, arguments that she wants to win. I have never seen this before with women, I think we men are supposed to be the more bullheaded ones <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But literally, I see G slip into a form of a trance, where nothing can any longer penetrate the outer shell. I know it sounds judgemental, but this is exactly how she comes across to me.

On all the issues I described, I simply wanted to have a discussion, and she seemed to dig in her heels and not even want to listen. And yet when she thought about it a day or two, or heard someone else agree with me, she instantly seemed to agree.

So, either I am not making it safe for her to have these discussions (and I cannot promise that I am not, although I sure do try to be validating), or she does it to herself.

Now, you saw in her e-mails that she does blame herself for this trait, and as you know I largely do too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. She says that she has this habit of arguing too strongly; problem is, she argues so strongly that it is no longer an argument, it is a wall. And I need to find a way to break down that wall.

I definitely agree that I can do more to try to break it down, but I also believe that at some point, if this continues, I am going to have to admit defeat and basically conclude that for whatever reason, be it due to G's mindset, or a combination of my behavior and her mindset, we are doomed to not be able to have respectable and productive discussions. Which would be a bad thing, of course. Not something I'd want to settle for in a relationship.

So, for sure, one thing I want to explore in our "cool" period is whether we can find a way to discuss disagreements. I will focus super hard on my behavior, but in the end, it has to work; otherwise, I won't be willing to continue a relationship that is so handicapped.

Oh, I also want to clarify another thing. I totally agree with you, Harley stuff is not the bible, and I do not want to follow it blindly. I am open to taking a bit from here and a bit from there.

Also, when I said that G favored taking turns, I didn't mean taking turns picking movies or places to eat. I would be completely OK with that. But, she meant that whenever there is a disagreement, that we should take turns on whose side wins. I don't think that that would be wise, not when it comes to big issues. That is a recipe for resentment, IMO. I think big decisions should be negotiated - maybe POJA, maybe some other approach, but not be traded off in turn.

Anyway, I really appreciate your perspective, and I am sure that you girls understand G much better than I do, so thanks for the insight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. And yet, I hope you'll grant me that I do have some additional insight of being there with her in these arguments, and that I do have the ability to perceive some things that concern me, and should concern me. Anyway, I am not losing hope, but I am keeping an eye on things, including my own behavior. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

I dunno AGG, I thought I was on to something and then you throw this in....I was even thinking that when she said "take turns" it would be a good thing to point out taking turns on who's relatives you see at holidays as well...Are you absolutely sure she meant on big stuff that you can't agree on? Maybe I am just being judgemental here but I can not for the life of me think of any mature adult thinking that a person can "take turns" on important issues! I would think if a person did, you can give a couple of examples as to why it wouldn't work and they'd immediately step down and feel a little foolish for suggesting it.

Anyway, good luck to you on this one. I just don't even know what to say any more. Sorry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Anna

Been thinking about this a little more..AGG, if you want this relationship to work, whether you or I think that G is being ridiculous or her logic is a little off...if you want to build a relationship with her, it is not good advice for me to tell you that her thinking is ridiculous or the way she wants to POJA is not the correct way. I think you still need to work on seeing her side and her POV, that is what POJA is partly about, not looking at what you want but loving your partner enough to want to give them what they want.

I hope things get better for you with your relationship.

Anna

Not absolutely sure, but pretty sure <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Really, the first time it came up was not even in an argument, so it's not like things were heated or anything. We were simply chatting about relationships, and I mentioned the idea of POJA, and she sat there and thought and then said that she didn't think that "mutual enthusiastic agreement" would always work. That is a common reaction for someone being introduced to POJA for the first time, but I think that most of us eventually see its wisdom for the longterm . But G said that she thought that the idea would lead to one person winning more often than the other, and that she thought it'd be better to take turns deciding whose side should "win". I didn't think too much of it at the time, but our discussions since then have unfortunately indicated to me that she does approach discussion that way, with the intent to win "her" position. Perhaps she can be "re-educated", but you know what they say, we should not be in the business of educating our partner... So I feel stuck <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. But she did acknowledge that she has this tendency, so perhaps she can work on it herself...I'll certainly be looking for this to take place.

But, I am not giving up, so don't worry about me taking anything you say (or anyone else) and following it blindly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I'm listening to everyone, but most of all to my gut feel, which still tells me that while the break or slowdown is needed, G has tremendous potential to be a great partner for me.

AGG

Don't you think it may be a good idea to ask her what she meant? There are too many times in life people make wrong assumptions.

Of course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But I didn't make an assumption - I listened very carefully to what she said. And she said that she thought that "mutual enthusiastic agreement" might end up with one person always prevailing, and she thought that a better idea might be to take turns in "whose way" to do things. So, I can't say that I absolutely know what she meant, but this is what I heard. So I have no reason to doubt the intent behind the words I heard. KWIM?

In the meantime, I am feeling good with this limited contact. In fact, I managed to have a bit of an epiphany in the last day or so. I think that a part of the whole fiasco is that I have had absolutely no time to myself. And for an introvert like myself, it is critical to have "alone" time to recharge myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

We basically got into the pattern of spending almost all of our time together, especially when I didn't have the kids. But, that means that I get no "alone" time, since I end up with either my kids or G all the time. And especially because G is not a very "take charge" kind of person, I often felt even more "weighed down" when she was here with me and the kids - more of a burden than a help. I know it sounds disrespectful, but it is not meant to be, it is simply a fact that when she is here, I end up planning meals, activities, etc, while she more or less follows. And it does become a bit draining.

In contrast, G has continued to have lots of "alone" time whenever I had my kids. So in essence, she always felt relaxed and recharged and wanted to spend time with me, and I felt like I was almost constantly overwhelmed.

In fact, for the past couple of months I have already been asking G to maybe see each other less intensely - not because I didn't like being with her, but because I felt exhausted. But she kept pushing for more "together" time, again, because she had plenty of time to rest, while I did not.

So, when I discussed this with her yesterday, we both had an "A-ha!!" moment, because we both need alone time and we suddenly realized how she was getting hers and I wasn't getting mine. She wholeheartedly concurred that I had every right to feel overwhelmed, and I think we both learned something.

Anyway, all the more reason for us to slow down a bit and see how that goes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Have you discussed this with her? Have you asked her to be a bit more proactive? It's almost like she still views herself as a "guest" in your home.....I think you all are way past that and it's time for her to jump on the "mi casa es su casa" mentality, no?

Do you end up doing all the planning etc when you stay at her place?

BF, who is very tidy (woo hoo!), seemed very uncomfortable whenever I would jump in and clean up or do dishes etc....he said he didn't ever want me to feel like I was obligated or it was an expectation. I didn't feel that way. It's just part of my nature to jump in and help out. I also told him that it really helped me feel at "home" when I could help out, and that I understood he never expected me to do it.

Glad to hear your steps back are a step in a positive direction.

I'm also glad you didn't chuck things w/ G. I still believe there are some big issues to be played out, but it's very good that G is being open minded. I just hope that these changes are not just b/c she hopes to keep you in her life, but b/c she feels that she's benefiting as well.

We discussed this very topic yesterday. And I did say that at this point, six months into things, I would like it if she acted less like a guest when here, and more like a partner. I acknowledged her previously-stated thoughts that she does not like to "barge in" and make a big splash, but also proceeded to tell her that while that might be her approach, sooner or later she would probably need to join in, rather than be an observer.

I think this conversation went very well, because instead of me dancing around my feelings that she relaxes a bit much(DJ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), I focused on the fact that in my daily life, I feel swamped, and it would be really REALLY nice to have a partner who would help carry the load, rather than add to it. So I made it about me, instead of about her.

I gave her a couple of examples, where it is not necessarily things like cleaning the house or washing the car or making dinner that I'd want from her, but simply showing some initiative for activities and plans, such as say "hey guys, why don't we go see a movie today, there's one at 2:00?", or "how about we have pizza for dinner, I'lll call it in?". Even that "emotional" help would be better than what we have now. Of course, if she said "How about I take your daughter shopping today?", that would score even more points <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. In fact, I really went on the limb, and was fully honest with her, and told her that sometimes, I feel a bit like I have not two people to look out for here, but three (she being the third, obviously). I initially wanted to say that I feel like I have three kids, but I felt that that might be over the top. But hey, she's a grownup, and I think a grownup can do more to help with things than just sit and wait for me to take the lead.

She did say that she understands, and will try to do that more, although she added that she feels that by the time she gets here, we already have a lot of plans made and she doesn't want to mess them up. This is a valid point, I am definitely a planner. And she also feels that I tend to be so task oriented that I end up doing it all, and not giving her a chance to step in; I know there is some truth to it, and I can certainly try to change that a bit, although I also know that it's a give and take - if I saw a bit more initiative from her, I'm sure I'll give her more space to exercise it, but so far that has been lacking.

Anyway, it was a very honest discussion, and I feel good about that.


Well, when we're at her place, it ends up being a mini-vacation for me, because there are not kids and no house chores, at least none that she wants me to do for her. So we end up going out to eat or see movies, but even then, I feel like I am making most of the suggestions. And I feel drained by that too. I think she backs off in order to be "polite" and not pushy, but I wish she were more pushy, or at least showed initiative. She is good at suggesting things when she has something specific in mind, but I think when it's just a regular day, she waits for me to suggest things. It gets tiring sometimes.


Well, she keeps saying that she feels very good about her cleaning, decluttering, and schedule adjustments that she has made. I guess I have to take it at face value, and assume that she really feels that way. I think evenutally, actions will either line up with the words or they won't <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

I don't worry, I know that.
(That's why I don't comment.)
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This discussion about planning things is very interesting to me AGG. It causes me to squirm a bit as well because I have to wonder if during the course of my 20 year marriage I wore mental & emotional blinders. Actually, I know the answer to that & it distresses me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The answers I come up with as to why I was willing to do that just don't seem adequate. Kinda scary. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Anyway...

I understand your feelings regarding G's lack of initiative. I planned ALL (almost) during my marriage. Not only that but I had a few suggestions ready because I knew some would be turned down. Now, there's an additional down side to this. Not only is it draining to care for this "third child" but later you may get accused of being bossy or not letting her present ideas. I see this in some of the words G used to describe why she doesn't jump in with help or come up with ideas for activties. She didn't because you... Some of these same words were ones I heard during "marriage counseling".

EX: You had plans already & she didn't want to mess them up.

You don't give her a chance to step in.

She doesn't want to barge in...make a splash.

You get the picture. All about you making her feel xyz.

But, before I completely cover you with this wet blanket, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> it sounds like you guys are doing an excellent job of communcating. Particularly you by being able to say exactly what you feel & not dance around your feelings to lessen the impact. This I also understand all too well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This stepping back really seems to have given you the space you both need. G to make changes if she really wants to. You to have the space you need to recharge, think & observe. Imagine the a ha moments to come if these first few days have been so productive. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

NAMS,
Are you flooding where you live?
I had to drive through a foot of water to get to work, and wonder what roads will be out on my way home. The water wasn't even on my side of the road when I stopped at a stoplight, but 4 lights later, it was 1 foot deep.
The Northeast is getting drenched.
We actually have sunlight today, the first in a few weeks. But not enough to help the situation.

Holy "partial quoting", Batman <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />... What happened to the rest of what I said?:



I wish you would, I always appreciate your insight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Oh yeah, that would be the sound of the other shoe falling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. And it is interesting, because G has made a comment earlier (before the blow-up) that she feels that I don't let her do enough planning with us, and that she would like to be more involved. Now, that could be interpreted in one of two ways - one, she genuinely wants to more be involved, but I really do overschedule things before she ever gets a chance; or two, she is so passive that I end up doing all the scheduling, and then she does become squeezed out and I get resentful and so does she. I still don't know which one it is, and it may be some combination of both <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.


Yup. But you know, I want to try to see both sides of this. I think that in some ways, I do contribute to the problem. I am very task oriented, so I do end up filling my schedule with plans and activities, much of it while G is not here. So I can see why when she comes down here, she feels like everything has already been pre-planned, and so she backs off. Sure, if she were more "dynamic" (can't think of the right word), there is always room to make a splash, but I can see how it can be hard for someone with her personality.

In fact, I remember that once when I was dating a woman, who had a child, I always felt "lost" at their place. Part of it was because she treated me like crap <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />, but another part was that they truly seemed to have all their routines worked out so well that I didn't know how to "fit in". And yet, I bet that she felt that I was not jumping in enough, so it was vicious circle. Anyway, my point is that I have BTDT, and sometimes it is hard to jump into a situation where everything seems to be already prearranged.

Add to that the fact that G has no kids and has not been exposed to life with small kids around, and so it makes it more difficult for her to jump into a situation of a family with kids. I think that is reasonable, at least at the outset.

Still, I am not rationalizing it away (despite what B2M might say <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). I dated childless women before, and they were perfectly able to jump in and participate, be it working in the garden, cooking, doing something with kids, and planning activities. So, I am not planning on buying the "I'm new here" excuse for any length of time.

What I do want to do is share with G these frustrations of mine, and see how we can change the dynamics. And I can certainly try to give her the space to step in, so she doesn't feel that everything has been planned or arranged, and she should just follow along like the third kid <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.


You bet. I feel very good about having some time to reflect on my feelings and observations from the past few months, and to share them with G very frankly. I suspect that some of this might be hurtful to her, but I do try to present this in a non-judgemental way (hehe), in a manner of "this is how I feel when..." rather than "You need to do blah blah...".


Yup. It definitely works for me. I doubt that's how G feels; I suspect she feels more lost, confused, and torn. I'm sure to her it feels like I am holding her in suspense. It reminds me of when my ex and I were going through our "problems", and she was always "confused" about our future. Of course she was having an affair, and we were not just dating, but were married with two kids, so it's a bit different than this situation, but I digress. Seriously, I am sure that to G, the uncertainty is very difficult. But then again, I am learning and understanding so much during this break, that I can't just jump back into the old pattern without making sure that we have made the right adjustments. And of course there is always the chance that one or both of us will suddenly have an epiphany that we simply aren't well suited to each other. Who knows.

AGG

So why not go one weekend and not plan ANYTHING until she gets there?

And when she makes it up out of bed and asks "what are the plans for the day?" you can honestly say "well, we don't have anything planned, do you have any suggestions?"

Or maybe sometime during the week before she comes down to visit, as you seem to talk to her quite a bit, ask for her input while on the phone.

or why not, on some days do nothing, to see if she takes the initative to make breakfast, lunch or even dinner...

There really are ways to see if she's willing to be an active partner or not.

And as far as the traveling back east to spend time with her family so often, I'd be cautious about that..One person flying out there isn't nearly as expensive as four flying.

Maybe do some research to find out what the cost would be to fly a family of four back east six times a year. Though I'm sure she's not planning on your taking your kids EVERY time, and possibly even at all. She may just be thinking it will only be the two of you going back east to visit her family so therefore the cost wouldn't be as much...

oh, gawd, everything planned all the time. . .

work i can agree with planning, since i am in financial planning, but eveything at home?

ugh! when does one get to relax?