FWIW I just tried to add an asterisk to my screenname to show solidarity for Suzet but forum guidelines will not allow it.

I tried Suzet with a star.

Pio...

What I don't think you get is that Plan A/B are BOTH designed FOR the BS...They are ACTIONS not REACTIONS...You do understand that, right? You can only control YOU...

By the way, I am one of the "sasquatches" that you refer to...I am a FORMER Wayward Wife...YES, we DO exist...I will not EVER choose to be around OM again...Out of respect for my HUSBAND, my MARRIAGE, my DD6, and mySELF...I have done and will continue to do the internal work on me...But I get what you are saying, I do...the addiction theory...I agree with that, but honestly, for me, out of respect for my husband, not out of some pull that the OM has over me...See what really hit home for me was at the end of my affair I read the question somewhere, "Is this who you would pick if you were single?"...The answer was a resounding "NO" from me...a big nuh uh, no way, nada...I really "affaired down" in a big way, most people do...So I can, without reservation, tell you that if Mr. W chose to leave me at anytime, or God forbid, passed away, OM would NEVER be a choice of mate for me...but again, that's just me, and I, after all am a "SASQUATCH", but I wanted you to know, in spite of that little hiccup...

Mrs. W

Suzet~I have been gone awhile and yours is the first post I have read. I know where you are coming from and feel your tormoil.
All it takes is a split moment of contact and you are right back to where it started, like it never stopped. You have to be strong and it was great you told your husband. This will help as uncomfortable as it is right at the moment. Hang in there and be strong. All you can do is start again from this point and move on, forget the slip, just try not and let contact happen again.
I personally am wondering whether NC letters are clear enough to the OM/OW. It's really not over til both of you decide it is over. Take care.

Mrs. Wondering,

I am not sure I can accept criticism from you as to what I understand or don't understand about Plan A/B. I think in one of my last posts on my most recent long thread I clearly stated that Plan A/B is for the BS. However it is too late to get into that. I have never read your story so don't know any details of how infidelity relates to your lives. I have read some of Stan-ley's theory of differentiation between types of WW's and he has said that some are truly capable of recovery but many others are not. In simplified terms it depends on whether the WW really falls in love with OM or falls into the A for other reasons and love is not the primary driver.

I am very glad you are both happy in your marriage and I wish you continued success. Good luck yo you.

I get the impression that many WW's return to the M our of duty to something but not for love. It is the unrequited love feeling that is the deal-breaker for me. I think it must be extremely hard for a WW to return to a BH but I am only projecting so don't know for sure. I would think it would be easy to hang on to the A in the mind partly as a defense mechanism. Admitting the A was an error would be difficult for my WW's self-esteem. It is easier for her to believe she is being noble by staying in the M. It makes her feel better about herself. Kinda gets back to that remorse thing I mentioned last week.

It is late and I am tired and not making much sense.

Hi Suzet with a *,

I will admit that the * bugs me also. But not half as much as the . behind KiwiJ.

Just kidding ladies...

Suzet,

Early in my JFO days with MB, your H made a very nice post to my thread. I know he is a good man with a good heart. The latest salvo from OM firmly established that a pledge of NC and a NC letter, however well crafted, to OM will not suffice.

You must expose to OMW. OM has to experience a cost for his part in the original EA and renewal of contact via his latest email. This is an imperative. I don't know what you are afraid of but it must be done. You will lighten your burden, as well as that of your H. Moreover, OMW deserves to know. I would clearly want to know.

Good luck,

ToddAC

Myrta and I have never been advocates of exposure if the affair is over.

However, in the case of Suzet exposure of the affair to the wife of OM seems like the ONLY LOGICAL solution.

I understand why Suzet is against exposure; here is why:

The love e-mails depict an impossible relationship because the participants are married to other people. For Suzet this is a HUGE hurdle, for OM this is not big deal. However, at a metaphysical level the affair marches on.

As all good OMs do he presents himself as someone who does not want to harm Suzet, but nevertheless is pursuing a relationship. He uses classical OM speak in his e-mail and Suzet buys all of it. Suzet freely admits that she is attracted to the OM and the implication is that she could never cause harm to OM.

Suzet will not harm OM by telling him “I don’t want you , go away” in a firm manner. Instead the dismissal of OM is centered around the theme of we cannot be together because we met at the wrong time. It is the “unrequited love theme” by circumstances out of our hands. This approach fuels OM’s desire for Suzet because the reasons for ending the affair are external to Suzet.

Within this frame work Suzet presents loyalty to OM and she will never betray OM by exposing the affair to OM’s wife. OM has told Suzet about the devastation this revelation will cause in his household. Suzet remains faithful to OM and will not do anything that will cause pain and discomfort to OM.

My friends, Suzet will not expose because she is loyal to OM and does not want to betray OM.

But, there is more:

At some level Suzet enjoys the fact that OM is after her. Exposure would demolish this fantasy.

Most WWs want to save face with OM even after d-day. They want to make sure OM has a good image of the WW. It is important to preserve the admiration that OM felt for the WW. Within this context WW does not want to disappoint OM.

Imagine what OM would say to Suzet after exposure:

“You betrayed me, I opened my soul for you, I wanted the best for you. I thought we were soul mates and now you have cause all this pain and devastation in my home---how could you???”

The above is something Suzet wants to avoid.

Stanley for once I agree with you. I believe your comments are right on the money.

I've been finding I agree with Stanley more often than not lately. This is yet another of those cases.

suzet - while it's a bit different in my case. Telling OM not to contact me didn't work. He continued to send me - hope things are okay messages here and ther efor the first month - all of which i DID pass on to my H.

You know when contact ended 100% - when we told his wife. It killed her yes - but it allowed true recovery to begin.

I know withdrawel was hard for you the first time, but withdrawel NEVER ended for you. You thought you could control it, and here you are - you couldn't.

Telling his wife is a tool that will help you all. If you can't do it, then ask your husband to.

Stenley,

Excellent post and I agree wholeheartedly.

Dorry, in this case it will work. However, Suzet does not want to disappoint OM. THis is as clear as a sunny day in the Sahara desert.

I'll admit it: I don't get it when the WS still feels a "tug" at their heartstrings for the affair partner. I've written about this a lot, especially lately, as I've read (on several occasions) that there is a lingering "love" that binds the two together.

I have no desire to ever (as in EVER) lay eyes on the man I had an affair with again. In my case, it's much easier since I live thousands of miles from him. But much of my family lives close to him, and every time I go for a visit I pray I never see him. NOT because I'm afraid of falling again, but because I am ASHAMED and HORRIFIED that it ever happened in the first place. I would be EMBARRASSED to face him or his wife. Finding a way to live in my own skin has been a challenge beyond anything I've ever lived through. I can't imagine going through all that again - and I never will.

I just don't get how something that very nearly ruined your life, and in my case did ruin my first marriage, would be attractive in any way.

Suzet, please expose to the OM's wife. It will save YOU from going down this road again.

I totally agree - Stanley is 100% correct here. Wow. Agreeing with Stanley - is that a first for me?

My idea on this (not having read all of the thread, so I do apologize if this has already been brought up) is the old "tried and true" POJA!

Suzet, I would recommend POJA'ing with your H about exposure to the OM's wife. I know your concerns about opening the can of worms, your work, etc. This is why it's important for you to discuss this thoroughly with your H before doing anything. My wife had some similar misgivings about telling the OM's wife because she was afraid that she might "retaliate" against her out of anger. (My wife would be, after all, the "other woman" in the eyes of the OM's wife). Who knows what kind of anger or retaliation she might try?

I know it’s easy for all of us here to yell out “EXPOSURE.” It’s simple, and it is a part of the Harley concepts. But I also know that there are times and places for it to be done (as well as certain methods too). Also, who should deliver the message?

For all betrayed spouses out there, and that’s most of us, think about this for a minute. Would you really like to hear from the OM/OW that they were having an affair with your spouse? I, personally, would not have wanted to get a call from the OM that he was sleeping with my wife. (But that’s just me – I know everyone is different).

My wife was actually terrified of what the OM’s wife might do if she spoke to her personally. How would she react? Would she go off the deep end and do something crazy out of retribution for sleeping with her husband? I can understand Suzet’s fear here even though her situation never got as far as my wife’s did.

My wife and the OM were (and still are, unfortunately) co-workers. We used the POJA. We brainstormed and brainstormed and eventually came up with a simple decision - that we would make it clear to the OM that IF he ever tried to initiate anything again I would tell his wife everything. So far it's worked because he's scared to death that his wife might find out – especially from me!

This is what we did with my wife's situation. It's not perfect, and it's not standard with the Harley practice of 'no contact.' But that's the decision that was made after heavy POJA negotiations. And so far it’s worked. We were able to come to a decision that we both agreed on. It helped to bring us closer together during a time when we were trying to “recover” from her affair, and it helped us in practicing the Harley principles and his “4 Rules.” The affair has been over for almost 6 years now.

Maybe that's something Suzet should try (or her H), if he continues to pursue her. I think they should have her H be the one to deliver the message if it comes to that (just my opinion, by the way). That might do the trick in keeping him away.

All the best, Suzet! Don’t get too down on yourself. When you fall off the bike, you just get right back on! You’ll be fine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-HD

New beginning,

I do understand what you are saying - why I am so glad mine is 1000 miles away now - they moved. I have no desire to ever run into him, see him, or talk to him again...no desire to email, phone - the thought of his voice makes me sick.

However, alot of my affair had to do with a massive ego boost, and for a long time in recovery for me, as much as he disgusted me and I never wanted to see him, I hoped he didn't hate me as I hated him. I hoped he really loved me as he said he did...even despite the hatrid I spewed at him...I wanted to hang on to that high up ego boost it gave me.

It took me a long time to let that part of ME go and learn where REAL confidence came from...on bad confidence days - which are fewer between now, I do the same thing - hope people I hate think very fondly of me...not just OM...it makes me feel temporarily superior and happy...which is a "Fix" and not a repair.

So how's that working for you? You do know you aren't in recovery right? When was the last re-lapse of her affair?

There is a whole lot more than simple exposure. IN fact that may not be the main problem:


The problem I see with Suzet is that she wrote a majestic love letter to OM instead of rejecting him. IN fact, the words of Suzet fueled the passion of OM.



OM said:



Suzet replied:




In OM language Suzet is basically saying “I am so hot for you I better keep away from you”. Folks, this is what OM is hearing.


OM also says:




Suzet says:



In OM language Suzet is saying: ”I cannot get it on with you because hubby is watching me like a hawk.


Suzet said:




This one is quite clear in OM language or in any other language this sounds like a scorned woman. Now OM knows Suzet wants him.



Then Suzet drops the bomb






In OM language = I will always love you, not LOVED YOU. OM will hear what he wants to hear.

Then Suzet throws him a monumental Freudian slip--------the one that clearly implies she does not want hermetic NC or exposure.




Note the word minimum. The key word here is minimum. She wants to keep her foot on the door. She does not want that door to be hermetically shut.


Then the OM goes in to the typical stupid philosophy that WWs buy into. In this one he sounds like all OMs---real stupid!




Here OM uses the oldest trick in the book. This is where OM says he has good intentions and does not want to hurt anyone. The phrase contains a monumental contradiction which is typical of OM language and is the sort of thing that women that are thirsty for admiration eat up like candy.


The litany of stupid words is endless and none make sense, however for the OW this is music to the ears.




Is he serious? This guy is a master manipulator. He wants to make sure Suzet feels guilty and sorry for him.




I will accept your decision!!! The universal words all OMs use to show they are good guys. This is great manipulation!




This guy is good and knows all the romantic clichés. I am sure Suzet is scrambling for a nice photo of her.

Folks Suzet never said good-bye to this guy.

For every word that implied some sort of rejection she provided a litany of excuses. Everybody knows that you do not dump a person in that manner--YOU DO NOT PROVIDE A REASON TO DUMP OM! IF YOU PROVIDE A REASON OM WILL HEAR THAT YOU WANT HIM AND THAT THERE IS HOPE FOR HIM!!!!


All she had to do in her e-mail was:

“listen you creep. Don’t contact me again. The thought of you is repulsive. I cannot think of a person that is lower than you. I must have been brainwashed to pay any attention to you. Leave me alone! Your stupid e-mail is been forwarded to your wife.

I bet you a case of Coca Cola that OM would go away in a heart beat if Suzet rejected him properly.

That's a pretty bold statement to make.

I realize you do not know my whole story, since I first came to these boards about 5 years before you did...

To put it simply, my wife ended the affair herself, and then she told me about it because the guilt had consumed her too much. I had suspected something was wrong due to her changed behavior the previous few months, but she ended it and fessed up on her own not knowing what my reaction would be or if I would leave her.

Do I like that they still work in the same office? No! But as a part of our recovery there were measures and precautions we put in place to make a resumption of the affair very unlikely. I admit is is not the "usual" Harley solution, but it was what worked for us.

There has been no relapse. And we are perfectly recovered, thank you very much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Frankly, I wouldn't give a damn who told me just as long as I was told. The important thing is that the BS IS told, because they should ALWAYS be told. You can see the result of Suzet's continued contact with the OM all these years. There has been on-again, off-again contact for years. Every time contact is resumed, they are back to day 1 of recovery. We have seen this happen over and over again on this forum for YEARS.

It is like sending a recovering alcoholic in the bar every day and expecting him to recover. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. Sure, some might beat the odds and make it. Just like some can play Russian Roulette and live, but that doesnt mean that playing RR is smart or is something to recommend to others.

Nowhere does Harley advocate that ending contact is a matter of POJA. Things that are DANGEROUS to the marriage are not POJA material. Nor should continued contact ever be a matter of POJA. Harley clearly says that he is ADAMANT that all contant end even if means a change of career or a move to another state. We can see what happens when that advice is NOT FOLLOWED. EXACTLY WHAT DR HARLEY SAID WOULD HAPPEN!

It might not be "easy" to leave one's job, but neither is DIVORCE "easy" when that continued contact destroys the marriage.

So, for Suzet to continue to IGNORE MB principles and expect a different result would be more than a little insane.

Suzet,

Trying to remember your story but isn't yours the case where you stopped contact with the OM at step 7 of your 15 steps to an affair so that you avoided getting into the EA once you recognized that is what was about to happen? You have never accepted that an affair happened to begin with. I guess this is why withdrawal seems so unusual. Are these emails about the level of what you had before or are they actually an escalation?

The OM's email to you is whatever it is. That is beyond your control. Your response to the OM is, for me, a big surprise. You know what you should have said. You know your words were not intended for NC in any way. Your emails tell OM you want the A. You are dying inside for the A - an A that, according to you, never happened in the first place. Do you think you are being honest with yourself?

The very first thread I started on MB was titled "How do you fight a fantasy?". Over the paast almost year since Dday, I have realized that I cannot and will not even try to fight the fantasy. I will go toe to toe with OM any day. I will not fight the fantasy in WW's mind of who OM is. If she can't shake that eventually, we'll go our separate ways permanently.

In your mind you have done nothing wrong because you have never had an affair so there is no real downside to continuing to not have an affair. I just don't see how you will ever be able to find personal happiness being such a martyr. In hindsight, I wish WW had continued her affair and let it run its course. Because it didn't, she has never had to face reality and may never deal with it.

It takes a lot of things for a M to survive an A but first and foremost it is requisite that both people actually want it. What is it you really want? If you want OM, go for it. I know that is not MB but I don't care. These Romeo and Juliet fantasies have no cure through MB IMO.