You know HurtingDeeply, on the very same page in HNHN you quoted from Dr Harley says this....

"no matter how well Elaine meets Alex's needs, he wil always remain in love with Harriet to a certain extent. Alex and Elaine can rebuild their marriage by beginning to meet each others five basic needs. They can reignite the flames of their own love, but all their efforts will not extinguish the flame of love ignited by Alex's affair with Harriet. It may burn low, but it will never go out. Just as an alcoholic remains addicted to alcohol the rest of his life and never dares to touch another drink, Alex will remain in love withHarriet for life and not dare to see her again."

Or Maybe you should look at page 168.

"I use an iron-clad rule that the straying spouse must stop making any contact with his or her lover immeediately and never see or talk with that person again"

Pretty clear I think.

ANd shows exactly what I meant by selective reading and distortion. I could go on, but most reasonable people here know that Dr Harley ALWAYS says NC for life, no matter how inconvenient you may find it personally.

Yeah, that's right. My wife is a bad person.

Evil.

She's a "victimizer."

That's exactly the type of person I'm married to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The OM, on the other hand, is a saint right? He shouldn't have to tell his wife. He shouldn't have to take responsibility. He only wakes up next to her and has to look in the mirror at himself every day.

We have to.

Right.

To me the above quote is the "cornerstone" of some VERY DANGEROUS thinking...And if I understand correctly, yours HD is a very similar situation to Suzet's...Your wife works with her OM, right? What makes her unique from Suzet or any other WS for that matter? How did your wife get you to buy that her affair was "unique"?

The OMW's MUST be told...

Mrs. W

You must have a newer version than me (mine is 6 years old). In mine he made the point of putting that exception that I quoted to you. Maybe he's changed his stance since then, I don't know.

All I can say is it worked for us. It may not be for everyone, but it worked for us.

-HD

Does your wife not have to take some responsibility for her actions here? The OM did not have this affair alone, did he? Did she not screw this woman's husband?

HD, your W and the OM victimized this woman and owe her the truth. Your W is not absolved of that responsibility just because she is not married to her. Does your W not feel any remorse at all towards this woman?

Do you not feel any obligation alert this woman so she can have the same opportunity to save her marriage as you had?

Right. and in the likely eventuality that he doesn't have th eballs to tell his wife (99% chance he won't) His wife is very likely being damaged and her health put at risk begause he is now moved onto his next affair partner. You know what a low-life he is. Why do you feel no compassion for his poor wife? Why does your wife feel no compassion for her VICTIM?

No Doesn't wash mate. I quoted from the EXACT same page as you. It also said what you quoted. The CLEAR undeniable message of that chapter is NC for life - ever a Harley principle.

HD,

Here's what I don't get, I'm certain that you saw yourself as a victim of OM...and you were...But how is it that you can't see that your wife is a victimizer of OMW??? That doesn't make sense...Please Explain...

Mrs. W

If I hadn't been caught - I am not sure I would have owned up to it. Fear had crippled me....exOM in my case had a month, and had never owned up to it by the time I called.

In ALOT of cases - the WS never owns up...and the marriage never REALLY improves...how sad....the pain the BS goes through might be worth it if it means a BETTER marriage, or a choice to end the sham of a marriage that was...

Just my 2cents

BUt I would say - HD is 6 years later...and I have known many who did it the NON- MB way that it worked for.

I DO believe though - HD - you are on a MB forum...where MB ways are PROVEN...and you are letting people know how NOT to do it the MB way.

I am very happy things have worked for you and your wife...but in MOST - the MAJORITY of cases - situations like yours would not have worked out the way they did...it's why you are dangerous to a MB forum...as many BS's here will let their WS convince them to let them continue to work with the OP with alteriative motives, and they may believe it - cause it was what worked for you.

Point comes down to - this is a MB forum with support, proven MB ways...sure their may be other ways - but this is MARRIAGE BUILDERS...And while there are cases like yours -MARRIAGE BUILDERS has proven that situations like yours normally do not work out like that....

Dorry,

Are you still in love with OM?

Am I still in love with my exOM? That is a very very funny question as I was never really in love with him to begin with...I was in love with the idea of what he made me feel like...even then I could say that...

I can honestly say not a single iota of love is in me for that man, nor respect... - I am in love with my handsome husband now...we have battled it hard over the past 19 months through both of us having affairs...and we have really reinvented our relationship...

I am however recently past the hate the exOMstage, and now am indifferent - I could care less about any aspect of his life.

I still struggle with day to day things that were part of the fall out - and the affair - and the digging deep to know what in me allowed it to protect myself from ever doing it again.

May I ask...why you asked me that?

ToddAC,

Could I ask you tha favor of raising the question I just emailed you about? Stanley just really depressed me and I don't have the energy for this right now. I would like to know the answer though. In fact, I need to know the answer. Please help out a friend in need.

HD did it the NON MB WAY!!!!???????

He's one of the original members! Bet you've seen some changes on here HD. *rolleyes* Congratulations on being an MB success story.

I don't quite see how this is helping Suzet. I was taken to task for t/jing, now it's just one big t/j.

HD - my apologies...only reading this thread <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and it came across you did it NON-MB <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If I assumed wrong based on this thread - my apologies.

And Jen - you are right - this has really become quite the tj <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Hope you had a good weekend Suzet

(((HUGS)))

My question is directly relating to Suzet's situation. I just can't deal with it. Hopefully ToddAC will address that with Suzet for me.

Guys (and Gals), <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This will be my last post on this subject simply because I usually avoid getting into discussions about contact / no contact, etc. simply because I realize my situation is unique and does not conform to MB “purists.”

But I do know a thing or two about Marriage Builders and the Basic Concepts. The first and foremost is to never be the cause of your spouse’s unhappiness (Rule of Protection). Right now, six years later, it would be a HUGE love buster for me to suddenly pick up the phone and call the OM’s wife. Besides, for all I know he may have told her years ago. She may say, “Why are you telling me something I already know?” <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Who knows?

I posted to Suzet simply because I could understand her predicament and thought I could give her some useful advice. I didn’t intend to start a flame war here, but I have been flamed before for making what I thought was a positive post and I’m sure it will happen again in the future. As JL once told me several years ago, that’s just the "cost of doing business here." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But to answer your specific questions one last time here it goes –

Melody / MrsWondering: my wife may be a victimizer but she is still my wife. I will protect her and care for her until death do us part. Yes, she is responsible for her own behavior – just as the OM is. She hates what she did and feels tremendous guilt to this very day. She ended the affair herself, and she told me about it even when she didn’t have to. She recommended to the OM to do the same, but we don’t know if he did or didn’t (my guess is no, but who knows for sure)? All I know for sure is that I made it clear to him that if anything ever happened between them again I would tell his wife. So far that has kept the peace and kept them apart.

My #1 priority is to my wife and my family. I will not dwell on any “victimization” my wife may have caused to the OM’s wife, and I will not think of her as a heartless wench with no compassion or remorse. She victimized me enough as it is, and caused huge emotional scars that I still carry with me to this day. I also will not dwell on the OM’s family and how they are doing. If they are having marital problems they will need to sort it out themselves, and if he chooses not to face up to her and tell her the truth I’m sure he will have to answer for that himself someday and in some fashion.

But I WILL NOT break the agreement I made with my wife back when we were in the process of recovery and be the cause of her unhappiness. (Rule of Protection, remember). I’m sorry. My family comes first. My protection and loyalties to them will trump everything else every time.

Bigkahuna, yes Harley has the “iron-clad” rule of no contact, and I know for the vast majority of all cases it is the best and only right thing. But why, then, did he stick that one quote in? Why did he contradict himself unless it was meant as a caveat to the rule? I can’t answer that question. Only he can. But that quote exactly sums up my wife’s situation, and our situation in our recovery. It may not pertain to you or anyone else here. But I didn’t feel I was distorting or taking anything out of context. It may not wash with you mate, but it did for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dorry – I understand this is Marriage Builders (I've been around here for a while now) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, and I understand that the situation I have is not one that is recommended for couples dealing with an affair. That is why, as I stated above, I rarely get involved in issues such as “contact / no contact” and "exposure" among BS’s and WS’s simply because I don’t want to recommend they follow my example. In most cases my example doesn’t work, and I know that!

However, I do know this:

Is a marriage better when you avoid being the cause of your spouse’s unhappiness? Absolutely!

Is a marriage better when you do your best to meet your spouse’s most important Emotional Needs? Absolutely!

Is a marriage better when there is honesty between both parties, and using the POJA to resolve conflicts? Absolutely!

Is a marriage better when you spend 15 hours per week together meeting those needs? Absolutely!

Those are the Marriage Builders principles I try to encourage others to follow. And those are the ones you will usually see me post about on these forums.

Well, it’s late. I’m tired, and I have to go to work tomorrow.

I think I’ve said all I care to say on this subject. I will now bow quietly out of this thread and you can all resume your advice to Suzet…

-HD

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sadly, I fear you may find this to be wrong one day, HD...I sincerely hope not, but the odds aren't in your favor...


See, HD, you seem to be twisting even the rule of protection...the protection is extended to each spouse within the confines of the marital relationship...The rule of protection was not designed to be used as a shelter from the consequences of adultery for the FWS...Exposure to the OMW is NOT an example of you causing your wife unhappiness at all...NOSIRREE, the cause of any unhappiness would and should rest squarely on the shoulders of your wife and OM, where it belongs...BECAUSE THEY HAD THE AFFAIR...It's one thing to admit to having an affair, and quite another to own that choice and all of the consequences that come with it...EXPOSURE and it's fallout is a CONSEQUENCE due your wife and OM as a result of their poor life CHOICE to have an AFFAIR!


I just don't get how telling the OMW would be the cause of any unhappiness for your FWW anyway??? HUH??? I just do not see exposure to OMW as a "punishment" to your wife. Why would doing the right thing, trying to right what she did wrong, cause her unhappiness? I see that as cleansing, healing and cathartic...REPENTENCE...very freeing...the lifting of a great burden...a tearing away of the albatross...etc...

Anyway, what you are doing is NOT protection at all...In fact, what you ARE is an accomplice to the crime of infidelity against OMW...KNOW WHY??? Because now you, along with the two infidels, are privy to vital information about the life of OMW...ALL THREE OF YOU ARE IN THIS TOGETHER-KEEPING A DIRTY LITTLE SECRET...Strange bedfellows you all make, no?

Also, HD, all this talk about having your family's best interest at heart...NOPE, sorry, I don't believe that, because IF you truly wanted to protect them at all costs, you would want extra padding to make certain that this affair didn't resume, and you aren't doing anything to try and insure that...1. YOUR WIFE STILL WORKS WITH OM and 2. OMW STILL HASN'T BEEN TOLD, RENDERING HER USELESS AS AN ACCOUNTABILITY PARTNER...Sorry HD, that does not seem heroic at all to me, in fact, it seems downright cowardly...Seems that your FWW is quite the salesperson...She has certainly sold you, but I, personally, ain't buying it...


Well, HD, that is what's called a bad promise; and the only thing worse than making a bad promise, is, of course, keeping a bad promise...This promise does nothing to protect your wife and family...It really only smacks of your issues with conflict avoidance and fear of your wife's anger...You know that your marriage can survive her anger, and I'm sure that you know it can't survive an ongoing affair-and my friend, you are going potty uphill if you don't think the affair could resume, because there are countless casualties of that type of situation all over MBland...If I were you, I'd want the extra insurance for my family, but that's just me...

Mrs. W

I can't honestly believe you would take 1 sentence and twist it to mean what you think it means. A quote is a pretext without a context. I'm not going to argue with you anymore about this. I think Harley has made his view on no-contact abundantly clear and unmistakably so both here, in his books, on his raido program. I am just staggered that you would promote anything else here.

Good for you saving your marriage. I hope we don't see you starting a thread like this one in the future.

And you know, another thing...I am a FWW that had a single OM...Obviously, I am IMMENSELY GRATEFUL that I didn't harm another family in addition to my own...

But when your OP is married...

WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU CHOOSE NOT TO USE THE INCREDIBLY POWERFUL RESOURCE AND ALLY THAT YOU HAVE IN THE OPS??? GOOD GRIEF, GO EXPOSE TO THE OPS!!! I'm serious, for crying outloud, why wouldn't you use ANYTHING and EVERYTHING available to you, to prevent this devastation from ever happening again? I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!

CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHERE I CAN BUY A CLUE???

Mrs. W