Having been in AA for 21 years, I will attest to the fact that 2x4's DO WORK!! Sometimes they are the ONLY thing that will. The greatest lessons I learned there were usually delivered with a big ole 2x4 when I was the most foggy. Often it was the only thing that effectively cut through my fog and I think the same is true with others. I have seen the same thing on this forum over the years.

What really DOESN'T WORK is saying nice, cute words and blowing smoke up folks' [censored] when a 2x4 is warranted. Suzet huffed off because someone hit the mark and she does not like the truth. But, I suspect she will be back soon enough.

The delicate hand holding clearly is not working. It has gone on for THREE YEARS...and still a couple of you clearly think you are entitled despite the compassion and understanding given to you for an extended period of time, to go back and pull the same crap all over again.

I may have a fairly new number of posts to my ID but I have BEEN around here for 4 years.

Maybe enough two by 4's and ya'll can actually rebuild something that will hold up to your desire to screw around on your partner.

Kiwi.. I respectfully disagree.

And you can MEDC. It's your right as a member of human race. I'm not being sarcastic - we are all lucky in our countries that we have that right.

It's still a free world where we live(thankfully).

BTW LD, have you read all my 4575 posts.

If you have, I really feel for you. What a nightmare trawling through that lot.

Pep..this was awesome!

Quoting princess pep:

"LOVEBUST the affair partner... and the zombie dies."

THEY ARE ZOMBIES...they will lie cheat steal and justify all their actions until their desires are either crushed or completely extinguished by their own hands, or by the loving tough hands of their partners.

This is the truth.

The OMW needs to be told NOW...I think the fear of loss of contact b/c of the revelation that the contact/affair is continuing is the real issue at heart here...

It's the WW getting her last bit of fix...the fear the fix is going to end completely that's going on now.

Let's see...

Suzet wrote this:
... after I wrote this:



Will someone tell me HOW I attacked Suzet?

By the way, I stand by what I've written. It's GREAT advice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Betrayedinjersey...

If you are a Christian, then YES, you are most certainly called upon to judge other Christians...NOT CONDEMN...but judge, YES, INDEED... Here's a link that explains it quite well, IMO...

And since you are so very well versed in MB principles then why aren't you here posting to HELP Suzet instead of scolding the ones of us who are trying to help here like we are YOUR children...I personally OWN every single thing that I have said to Suzet on this thread, all of it has been in line with MB principles-in the event that I do something out of line with MB principles(and remember, Suzet is NOT my spouse) I would very much appreciate you pointing that out...If not, then don't scold me for my tone, that isn't up to you...Forgive me for not understanding that you don't agree with what has been said here...It sure looked like that we were all being chided by you, which I took to mean that you agreed with HD's flawed logic which is against MB principles...Sorry if I was wrong about that...

Honestly, I would like it if you post this MB principle supported, nice and helpful post to Suzet...I just don't see how you are going to do that without sugarcoating the truth...Seriously, I would LOVE to read how that would sound...I enjoy learning...How do you make the truth as it is here less offensive, how would that sound...would it start, "Dear Sweet little misguided Suzet, please be gentle when twisting the knife in your husband's back...those wounds leave nasty scars...I can honestly see why you are having trouble with the idea of telling OMW, but really sweetie, might you reconsider, please, will you please have mercy on the woman you are stabbing?" Really, I just don't see how you can make the facts here sound nice...Perhaps you have a gift for that...Again, I am open to learning, always will be...Typically sugarcoating means enabling, and I really HATE enabling...It doesn't help, It harms MANY all at once...What a bargain!

I personally am glad that I now have a well developed distaste and disgust for foggy WSes that come here spewing rationalizations and justifications...I wear my distate and digust as badges of earned honor, because, after all, I once was a foghorn here myself...I have thanked the MBers that cared enough to slap me with 2 x 4's then...They were instrumental to giving Mr. W and I our marriage back and me a healthy self...There isn't enough gratitude in me for those people and MB...And they didn't owe me that, they spent time, energy and emotion on me because they CARED...It was not SPORT, they did it because they HATE to see families ripped apart by infidelity...They, like you, have had their lives ripped apart by this epidemic...I can't believe that you are NOT outraged and offended by what Suzet is doing here...What if she was the OP in your life? How might your view change then? Would you still wish to sugarcoat the truth? Or would you tell it like it is...put it out there in cold blood for all to see...or not BIJ?

Maybe we should just put a sign on the door here below MB asking that all BSes censor their pain when coming here...how would that be? For the record, I have seen many BSes put through the same treatment when they needed desperately to HEAR the truth-and were in a fog of their own that was preventing them to do so...Look, infidelity is UGLY, it is no secret that MB/GQII is not for the faint of heart...These are the trenches...The infantry in the war on infidelity, if you will...I really think that the sign on the door should say, "Marriage Builders Discussion Forum, GQII, Sorry you find yourself here, however, it's a great place if you want the truth about infidelity-yours or theirs-WARNING-'THIS IS FOR BIG DAWGS, IF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DAWGS, THEN STAY UNDER THE PORCH!'" But that's just me...


Mrs. W


P.S. Thanks MEDC...We don't like to tiptoe, do we? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

NBII,

Not an attack, just plain honest truth.

Obviously Suzet* places a higher priority on OM and Job, much higher than H and M. This much is obvious to even the most casual observer. So having said that, she is and always will be, until there is absolutely NO CONTACT, a WW! We all know there is no reasoning with a WS (WW or WH) until NC is established, the affair is over, and the fog lifts. Sooo, why the battle here??? OABTW, Entitlement is running amok here starting with Suzet and rolling through KIWIJ and beyond. What fuels entitlement? Lack of respect and a large dose of resentment.

Coddling a WS, like coddling terrorists does not work, 2X4s do work (just like 500lber's dropped from a F-16), when weilded in an appropriate way. IMHO I haven't seen anyone on this thread smacked in an inappropriate way. Just my .02

Wow, that is the exact same phrase that I used when I came here all hopped up on fog <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />...Really hate that one for obvious reasons... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Jen, I say to you what I said to BIJ, quit scolding and go about helping by giving out this really, great MB supported "nice" way of stating the UGLY TRUTH here...I would welcome the read...

Mrs. W

Funny so many of you are saying the approach is off - it won't work. A few months ago that was said about smfry. In fact some folks left the board after she received some very well placed 2x4s.

You know what- those 2x4s worked- she took the moral high ground and exposed and left her job.

You can say it doesn't work all you want. Ask Smfry if us coddling her would have worked.

This thread started out very, very supportive of Suzet- they didn't work for sure.

NB,

I never for once thought that you insulted her, and I don't think she did either. You did give great advice.

-HD

If it had stayed reasonable, not supportive as in yes, you're absolutely right in what you're doing, but supportive as in we're listening to you and this is what we think you should do based on MB principles (without the sarcasm and personal attacks), who knows what the outcome could have been.

Check out the reponse to me which made all the difference on BobP's thread to me to see how it can be done.

Kiwi.. I absolutely concur... when I read of situations like your's or Suzet's... I don't take it as a personal insult, or a personal loss...

I understand infidelity..and how difficult and long the road to recovery can and often is.

I see that you and Suzet... come hanging your heads... confessing... KNOWING...you'll get the heck beat out of you...but in one of those threads...you'll find compassion...and perhaps the path to set things right...and I know that is what you were both hoping for. Neither of you are new to these woods... and you know the mind fields of which I speak.

I just don't understand the need to get ugly... I really don't.

I was recently asked... what if this was MY OP? I never compare my situation with anyone elses..because each of us walk a different pace. I would undoubtedly ... file for D. Is that what anyone really needed to hear? I would have filed for D if there had been ONE breach of contact... is that what anyone needs to hear? I would have filed for D ...if I had ONE false recovery... what HELP is that?

I'm not scolding anyone... and I went back and read my post...to make sure it was perhaps written between the lines...something unspoken...lost in translation. Nope. I just disagreed with the personal attacks and judgments. In the process.. I got a few 2X4s myself.. go figure !!

I'm sorry for the setback for both you and Suzet... and I still stand by my own post...that if there is something "broke" inside the WS..until THAT is fixed...the marriage doesnt stand a chance either.

To chastise someone for being honest... creates an environment where nobody wants to be honest. That totally defies the principals.

Take care Jen... I'll be backing out of this one now. I'll saunter back to my recovery den...where things are much less volatile.

Well Meldoy, I was counseled differently. But my situation was a little different than Suzet's. My wife ended the affair on her own accord, recommitted to the marriage, and took some special precautions to help ensure the affair would not reignite. I was told, at the time, to just focus on meeting her needs and to avoid love busters. If I did that, there would be little chance that my wife's former lover would ever tempt her again. I was also told to hold off on exposure to the OM's wife (by the way, I really wanted to do it) because it was not needed at the time and could threaten our recovery. But that was 5-6 years ago. Every situation is different and some do not end up following every strict guidline in all the books to the letter.

There's a poster right now in the "Just Found Out" section that talked with Steve yesterday about exposure. He told him to "hold off" for now. So, you see, not every situation requires the same solution.




Melody, You also forgot the paragraph RIGHT BEFORE that quote in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS. Here it is:



Clearly there is a difference (generally) between men and women, and Dr. Harley recognizes it. That was the basis for how I was counseled because of how my wife was, and how she was willing to recommit to the marriage.

Now, Suzet, obviously, is in a different category than my wife because she is still tempted by this man. So yes, like I said in my previous post, Dr. Harley would probably now counsel her differently if she were to be talking to him today. He would probably recommend taking more extreme measures to avoid contact.

But I still stand by what I said about the POJA. I feel I was misinterpreted by some people here that were thinking that I was saying to POJA about continuing the affair. I was not. What I was saying was that they should get together and develop a plan to help ensure that this would not happen again, or how to escalate the exposure if that's what they wanted to do.

That's all I was trying to say. I still think the POJA is one of the cornerstones to Marriage Builders, and it's usually the first place couples should start when resolving conflicts. That's what I was taught.

I didn't mean to cause such a ruckus here. And I still don't feel I was betraying MB Principles or advising her on how to continue the affair. That would be the last thing I would want to do...

-HD

Thought this worthy of repeating right about now...sigh...

Mrs. W

So did Suzet. She did all of that. Just so you understand completely, Suzet's case is EXACTLY LIKE yours. Her case is the INEVITABLE RESULT of what happens when Dr. Harley's advice is ignored about ending contact. Suzet ended her affair all on her own and recommitted to her marriage and took "special precautions" to prevent the affair from reigniting. However, just as Harley states in all his material, because contact was not ended, the affair resumed.

What has happened here is what almost ALWAYS happens when contact is not ended. It can just as easily happen in your case as it did hers. It is like sending a "recovering" alcoholic into the bar every day and expecting them to stay sober. Eventually the inevitable weak moment collides with opportunity and the affair is resumed. It is just a matter of time.


HD, I am not sure what you think that paragraph means, but it is not meant to nullify Dr. Harley's CLEAR, ADAMENT suggestion that ALL CONTACT END FOR LIFE. He is not saying that meeting her needs ALONE will ensure the end of the affair and if you think he is, you clearly misunderstood him. You must read the REST of the page and take it all in context. You seem to think this is meant to be some kind of "exception" but we can see it is not. He does not present it as such.

On that same page he says: "He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists... "

in his article on this forum he does not even mention gender when he says:

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

He is not differentiating between men and women. He advises both men and women that contact must ABSOLUTELY END in order for the affair to end and stay ended.

What Dr. Harley clearly teaches is that NO CONTACT is the key to recovery; he calls it the CORNERSTONE to recovery on his radio show. Never should it be subject to POJA, because it is something that prevents recovery.

And yes POJA is very important, but it should not be used as an excuse to break other essential MB principles.

Suzet can POJA continued contact at work until the cows come home, it won't make EVER working with the OM a good thing. She can no longer continue to work at the same place if she wants to save her marriage. And all the POJA in the world will not change that. Telling her otherwise is profoundly irresponsible.

Huh?

I don't get it. Was this for me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

If not, please accept my apologies...

I just want to emphasize that POJA is a key MB principle, but it is not intended to be used to abuse other MB principles and destroy the marriage. That would defeat the purpose. For example, do you imagine that Suzet can continue to work with this OM, under the excuse of POJA, after years of this? Do you think its ok for Suzet to continue to work with the OM just because she has POJAd it? REALLY?

Like I pointed out before, POJA cannot magically change a bad thing into a good thing. That is unrealistic and I fear that is what you are trying to tell Suzet. We can already SEE the result of her continued "work" contact with the OM.

Well, all I can tell you is that in my situation it worked, and has been working now for quite a number of years. I never ignored any advice. I was never told that my wife MUST quit her job, but that if I did things properly and she was willing to do the same, we had a very good chance at success.

By the way, I have NEVER recommended to anyone that they take the same path I did without first counseling with the Harleys themselves, because I know the odds are not good.

What can I say? I'm an anomaly! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />




Again, I believe I have been misinterpreted. I did not say that Suzet should POJA about continued contact...I tried to say that they should POJA about how to avoid future contact, and whether or not to expose to the OM's wife. That's all.

-HD