Which is one and the same thing since Suzet continues to work with the OM. The way to "avoid contact" is to leave her job and that is not something that should be POJA'd as you can see from Dr. Harley's words. Ending contact is not a negotiable issue, much less a POJA.

I don't know who ever "counseled" you about your W maintaining "work" contact, but fortunately, that bad advice is not given by Dr. Harley or anyone on this forum that I am aware of. [I have been here since 2001] Affairs are resumed that way years after they supposedly ended, just as has happened in Suzet's case.

Melody,

For the last time - I already stated in posts above that in Suzet's situation Dr. Harley would recommend, because of her continued weakness towards the OM, that more "extreme" measures should be taken to avoid future contacts!

How many times do I have to repeat this?????

Yes, the POJA can be abused if one spouse is gaining at the expense of the other. You are correct there, and I agree with that.

By the way, my "original" post on the POJA (on whatever page it is here) had more to do with whether or not they should follow through on "exposure," NOT with whether or not they should continue working together.

I thought I had made that clear, and hopefully now it does.

-HD

Well, I was here before you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I realize that you are a passionate poster, and that's good. A healthy exchange of ideas can really liven things up.

I understand that there is a chance my wife could go back and have another affair. There's a chance that any of us could have an affair anywhere! Like I said, ours was not the "ideal" situation or the "usual" advice that is given.

But because of our situation (which I won't go into detail here), this was the best path for us at that time.

And I don't believe I was given bad advice by the Harleys or anyone on this forum.

-HD

HD, and for the last time, that "extreme measure" to which you refer is STANDARD MB fare that Dr. Harley has been giving for YEARS that applies TO ALL AFFAIRS. IT IS THE CORNERSTONE OF RECOVERY FROM INFIDELITY.

He states that to NOT understand this essential point is to miss the entire point. This is advice that is only given in cases that you imagine are "special" or "unique" but in ALL CASES. Understand?

What Dr. Harley counsels and writes about and talks about EVERY DAY on his radio show is NO CONTACT FOR LIFE. Not just for "some cases," or for "hard cases," but for ALL cases. As he says about ending contact FOR LIFE:



Understand?

In your case, you have played Russian Roulette and managed to survive...........so far. As far as you know. But that does not mean it is SMART to play Russian Roulette, does it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This has gotten way out of hand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Melody, what you say is true and a part of MB Doctrine. I probably should have never interjected myself into this thread because of my own personal history.

Let me just say this:

My original intent on advising the POJA was regarding "exposure," NOT whether or not Suzet should continue working there.

I'll just leave it at that.

-HD

Its all good, HD. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ABSOLUTELY...In fact, just TODAY, he said, there are two KEY things that a couple MUST do to recover from an affair...

1. You must NEVER speak to or see the other person again...FOR LIFE...(He did NOT make exceptions)

2. You must reestablish a loving relationship by spending a minimum of 15 hrs. per week together, that 15 hours must include...
A. Intimate conversation
B. Recreational companionship
C. Affection
D. Sexual Fulfillment

HD, you seem like a genuinely jovial guy, would you mind calling the show and seeing what Dr. Harley would say regarding your situation? I would really like to hear his answer...I'm not being disrespectful or sarcastic, I am sincerely asking...Would you be willing to do that and let us all know the day and time that you will be on? For you, his answer won't really matter, because you are in a recovered marriage, but it would be VERY helpful to many here, including Suzet...Will you do that HD?

Thanks for your consideration,

Mrs. W

HurtingDeeply - did you do counselling with the Harleys? Did Harley tell you continued contact was OK or are you just basing your entire case on your experience (to this point) and your incorrect interpretation of Harleys plain words?

I think that it would be fine if Suzet*'s husband calls the OMW to let her know about the affair and renewed contact etc.

Then follow up with Suzet*'s NC letter with a cc. to OMW. If the OMW would like to speak with Suzet* then fine.

Usually, it is the BS's that contact one or the other. Just because this is such old and then renewed news doesn't need to matter. JMHO

After all, her husband should have contacted OMW originally. He can apologize to her for not informing her before. Her knowing will help insure no further contact. As far as their marriage....I guess they just have to let the chips fall where they may: not their problem.

Suzet:

I don't post anymore nor do I read the BB's anymore, but i was just passing by and was shocked to read your post. You helped me 2.5 years ago and you helped me save my marriage due to your advise and others advise and encouragment. I saved my questions I asked you and your answers and I occasionally still read them.

We are all weak but we seem to follow what feels real good for us. The OM is flattering but is not fulfilled at his own home. You are weak and vunerable and are being flattered by words with shallow intent. Be strong my friend and don't fall prey to weakness from the OM nor from your own life's struggles. God is in control and you need to make decisions as if you see Him standing next to you. You are weak but aren't we all. You will be OK but you must follow your values and your heartn not your human weakness.

If quitting your job of security is what it takes to move you away from your temptations, then you must. A life without your husband and meaning is not what is intended for you. Break away and fall back upon your husband where you belong. The journey of trials and tribulations with your husband is worth it and you can past through this difficult test again. I will pray for you my friend.

From the States to South Africa, you are a good, but weak person, like so many of us on these boards. I know you will read this but you may not respond and I understand. Nobody can take away from you the countless hours of you givin to others. You have given to so many people that needed you. Now the teacher, weak like the rest of us, is being tested and lured, but I know you will be fine. Do not allow cheap flattering words tempt you and lure you away. Dr. Harley understands that NC is absolutely crucial because of our weak sense of being and you must rely on his teachings to survive this time.

Take care my friend.

TooSoon

MrsWondering / Bigkahuna,

I have to make this brief because I have to get ready to catch a plane to Vegas.

Yes I did do counseling many years ago, and all I can say is that while the Harleys write and talk about what should be done, they do their counseling sessions based on individual situations and circumstances. They always recommend what they write in the books as the first option, but then they take whatever situation is given and tailor their advice to how they feel will best save the marriage and the give best chance of recovery.

My inclination is that doing the radio show would probably not be a good idea, for a couple of reasons. One, the affair was six years ago, and we have long since recovered and moved on (it really has become something of a "distant" memory). Two, there would not be enough "air time" for me to explain all of the intricate details - if I could remember them all - and circumstances surounding our situation (as would be the case in a 1 hour phone session, for example). Three, I imagine that even in light of everything, Dr. Harley on his radio program would probably still NOT recommend what me and my wife have done - simply because it is against the odds, and he wouldn't want to give the mass audience out there (or anyone else contemplating a similar path) any "false" hopes.

I wouldn't either...

Our recovery was longer than normal, and harder on me personally and emotionally (for obvious reasons) then it otherwise would have been.

But we did get through it, and we have a much, much stronger marriage then we EVER did before the affair took place.

Gotta get ready for my vacation now. My wife and I are going to Las Vegas for a few days...our first trip alone in almost two years (much too long)! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We try to practice the "4 Rules" as best we can, but the Rule of Time is always the toughest for us with jobs, kids, etc.

We still need to work on that one... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-HD

PS - and it's all good too, ML! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well now that Suzet is gone for good, I just want to say something.

I do think Suzet's case is unique in a way. We are hammering her for not doing what is right and good when she has many years of experience on MB ans should have known. Now you can all slam me and criticize me all you want but, since only a small handful of you know how to get around my "ignore" filter (unfortunately lemonman being one of them when he became "lemomnman"), I won't see any of them.

Yes Suzet was her for years. Yes she was well versed in MB principles. What I see unique about Suzet is that, in all that time, she had never really admitted to anyone that she did indeed have an EA. She always maintained that she caught herself and stopped short of the EA IMO.

That is why I think 2x4's have been particularly ineffective. I think Suzet first needed time to process what was actually going on. Those email love letters were an obvious indication or her betrayal to herself. I think if Suzet had been given more time to see the reality of her situation, things might have been different. I believe Suzet has been in a 3 year fog and none of us knew it - until now.

I have seen Suzet say a lot of things in this thread. What I have never yet seen her say is that her husband has actually read those emails. She said she never said he was okay with them. That doesn't mean he read them. It is a clever twist of words. I think part of the reason Suzet has been here for so long is to help support her denial of the A.

Even the title of her post (as I commented to early on) just never added up. She has been giving clues and dropping hints that she needs help - wants help - and we have been pretty rough on her. You can argue that she knew what to do. I agree. She knows what MB mandates. She was just never convinced that she really needed it because she has never ever admitted to herself that she is truly having an affair IMHO. That is where I see the discrepancy. I think she is still lost in the fog - never got out of it actually.

HD - have a wonderful vacation. You don't have to justify your marriage to anyone. If you believe you and your wife have a good relationship and are recovered, albeit it was a long, gruelling process, then that is fantastic news and should be a cause for celebration IMO.

BTW - I think my situation is unique too!

You know what HurtingDeeply, just a yes or no answer please - Have you counselled directly with the Harleys? Yes or No please. I've read your previous answers and find them ingenious in their ambiguity.

A light bulb moment:

It is unrealistic to expect a wayward spouse to out the OP. The job of outing the OP belongs to the betrayed spouse. IN this case Suzet's H should be the one exposing whether Suzet likes it or not. This is not an issue of POJA. To expect a WW to POJA the final betrayal of her OM is way too much. The WWs will always feel some loyalty to OM.

Stanley,

If you meant WW there as you said it, then I agree WW's are loyal to their OM's...

However, if you actually meant FWW, then I will have to respectfully disagree, at least where I am concerned...If you did indeed mean FWW, in the future, would mind phrasing it this way instead..."The FWWs, with exception to Mrs. W, will always feel some loyalty to OM"...A much more factual and better read that way, IMO... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />...Be prepared, there may be others out there that wish for you to amend for them...Just remember, I asked first, K? 'preciate it buddy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W<------Thanks you ever so kindly for your consideration in this matter <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Harley preaches NC for life. The idea behind this concept is that the FWW is always vulnerable to OM (unless OM killed her children like lions do).

Within this context many FWW still have warm lovey-dovey memories of OM. No different than anyone remembering a tender moment from a prior relationship.

I have noted that even after the affair is over the FWW does not want to appear as an uncaring person to the OM. FWW telling the wife of OM would be seen as the ultimate betrayal.

I agree that the warm memories of OM approach zero as times goes by, but it never reaches zero. Hence the concept of NC for life makes sense.

Stanley

Squid thretened every spiteful thing if I exposed. In part to protect OM, but MOSTLY ( I believe) to stop the OMs BS from righteously hating her and thinking her a family-destroying slut. I exposed anyway and only SOME of the curses came to pass <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If Suzet tells OMW ,she will most probably think of her in this realistic but bad way.

Fact is by exposing Suzet would be doing the very best thing she could for OMs family under the circumstances IMO.

Suzet's H should expose to OMW. I agree it is not a POJA issue. Turkeys do not POJA Thanksgiving.

Surely this doesn't surprise you, Georgina?! It happens here all the time.

Some of the posters who have provided the most support for people get vilified the minute they confess a screw-up or deviate one millimeter from Harley principles. Nearly always it's BSs who do this. I suspect that's the nature of this place, as there are more BSs than WSs or FWSs here.

I'm not saying I condone Suzet's not exposing to OMW, because I don't. But the name calling and DJing here continues to boggle my mind.

What do we all really know about one another anyway? Totally unqualified people making judgements based on what's posted on a freakin' internet forum? How ridiculous is that?

IMHO, Suzet's inaction on the exposure thing is far, far, far less incendiary than other things that have happened here. Like last summer when one BS took some very private information about an FWH and his W, obtained under false pretenses from another board, then added some fabrications and made a very inflammatory and false post here (since deleted by JustUSS). Funny the BSs didn't take him to task at all. In fact, Pep actually defended him for it.

This thread is just another example of people driving someone away because they didn't conform. One size does not fit all, and it's sad that some people will never understand that.

peace.