And Suzet, this particular view of yours shows very well how focused that you think that OM is on YOU...My guess is that his focus would shift at lightspeed to his WIFE, where it belongs, as soon as exposure happens...Which, Suzet, makes BigKahuna's earlier statement VERY valid...Maybe this is something that you don't even recognize in yourself...step back and really THINK...What the OM thinks of you..."feels" for you...is still VERY important to YOU...

And seriously,

"Difficult" and "uncomfortable" are...

A. Consequences

and

B. Not nearly as bad as the misery brought about by a continuing affair or divorce...


So yes, Suzet, OMW MUST know...doesn't matter how she gets the truth...but all involved NEED her to have the truth...GET IT DONE!

Mrs. W

Vegas was very, very wonderful!

Unfortunately the tables were not kind to us...we lost... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But we still had a blast because it was our first time away without kids in almost two years -

...you can only imagine what we did! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All the best,

-HD

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mkeverydaycnt, not yet, but as previously stated, me and H have decided to use this as the next step should it be necessary. Actually my H said should their be a next time (OM attempting to contact me) he (my H himself) will tell him to back off. The reason my H has not directly told OM himself to cease all contact is because my H believes the NC request should have come from me. If it was coming from my H, it would have probably give OM the impression that I don’t really want NC, but was forced or demanded by my H to do so – which would have been a total misconception.

Initially after I’ve told my H about the recent e-mail exchanges, he was furious and wanted to go and confront OM immediately, but my H is not an impulsive person and after he have calmed down and gave it some thought, he realized a NC request would have been the best coming from me.

NOW, I haven’t give this such deep thought yet, but I think the biggest reason I have shared the recent happenings and my thoughts & feelings with these boards is because I felt driven to…maybe out of a sense of duty and responsibility to these boards…out of sense to be complete honest & open with these boards as far as infidelity in my M is concerned. You see, after all the years I belonged to these boards…and after all the support & encouragement I gave and received from members (and even the friends I’ve made one here)…it wouldn’t feel “right” to continue posting here without sharing the recent happenings and the horrible “mistake” in my life... I would have felt “deceitful” and (as MrsWonderings has stated) I would have felt that I was “lying by omission” by continue posting here without confessing the recent happenings in my life...even though I know beforehand I would receive 2 x 4’s and rejection from some people.

ItWon’tRainAlways, my H hasn’t read this whole thread yet but he has read huge parts of it. With regards to my own feelings - there isn’t anything in this thread I haven’t shared with my H yet. My H wanted me to leave this website after I’ve received certain attacks and insults from certain members and he is also of the opinion that many responses are a total exaggeration. He feels some posters used me to project their own negative feelings of pain, hurt and bitterness (his words). I also know the fact that I was involved in EA and not PA plays a major role in my H’s viewpoints and attitude about our specific situation – he said to me himself that he would have felt totally different and would react differently if I was previously involved in PA and/or have already crossed boundaries into admitting "feelings of love" towards OM before the recent e-mails. And because most responses are from people who’ve had EA/PA’s or whose FWS’s was involved in EA’s and PA’s he feels our specific situation can not measure up and that certain actions (such as exposure without concrete evidence) will be out of proportion for our specific situation on this stage. He wanted to send a response here earlier last week, but decided against it. Maybe he will still do, I don’t know.

Still seeking, Just Learning and HurtingDeeply – thanks for your posts and encouragement.

To others – as I’ve said previously, I will not do anything without my H’s agreement and approval regarding this situation. To do otherwise will not be Marriage Building but the exact opposite.

I'm sorry about all that's happened to you, Suzet

I know first hand how hard it can be to resist contact and then confess when you fall.

Like you, after the initial NC, my wife and I agreed that further contact with OW, OWH or any of her family - for any reason - was not in the best interest of our recovery.

Don't let those who stand on soapboxes and lecture you about honesty bother you...I know for a fact that most of those change their tune to fit their situation. Their "Truth" is relative even when they don't want it to admit it is.

Don't worry about them. You're doing ok.

I'll recap the story of my last...and only contact:
The OW tracked me down while I was shopping at Sears. We had coffee for 20 minutes...this was my mistake. But at the end of that 20 minutes, I knew there was no resumption of the affair...in fact, I sure it was closed for me.

Now...knowing that it was surely closed, I probably could have never said anything to my wife...and we would still be married today. But, I did follow MB and I told her.

She kicked me to the curb. She admitted she'd been looking for an excuse.

In my case, I believe we would've been better off divorcing rather than trying to recover. Our marriage was always a shallow sham...on both our parts. Hard to say who was at fault more...doesn't matter now.

I only know that I lived five years in pain and heartache, thinking I was going to recover...thinking our marriage would be better. Sure, I've learned a lot about myself and why I did the things I did...but that's small consolation for that waste of time. I think I would've done that...married or not.

Where MB fails is in not helping people know when to say when.

That's ok...MB has it's agenda and I'm sure Steve or Jennifer will admit that the world is a pretty big place with a lot of different ideas and philosophies.

You and your H have to decide what is best for your marriage. If that chaps some folks, so be it. They can voice their opinion.

Just remember that it only that...an opinion. It is not absolute truth despite assertions otherwise.

This thread has reminded me a lot of the church that threw me out after my affair. There were some good folks in it that were always making excuses for those who couldn't seem to muster anything but the proverbial 2x4 for sinners...but not enough to keep them from tossing me out. Some folks only understood 'tough love' because I suspect it's all they were ever shown.
My affair was over and I'd repented. I was asked to leave because the OWH family was the largest financial supporter and they might be "uncomfortable" if I stayed.

This is not a church Suzet...I support you in what you and your H have chosen to do.

BTW, I am also in S.A. ...I live near the beach on the western cape.

Low

LO

Suzet already confessed all to her H. Their M does not appear to be a sham as yours was. It is simply at unnecessary risk because of a lack of extraordinary measures to prevent NC violations. Suzet's contact with OM was a resumption of the A.

What I amd others have tried to tell her is that exposing to OMW will help her marriage. I see very few parallels indeed between Suzet's circumstances and yours, apart from the continent it occurs on.

I am sorry your recovery has not been what you hoped. I am not sure how MB can be blamed for any of your problems though.

I'd be interested to hear why you support Suzet in her lack of extraordinary steps to maintain NC when this latest contact was so traumatic for her marriage, just because in your entirely different circumstances your contact with OP seems to have catalysed a long overdue end to an ill-stared recovery attempt.

Bitterness drips from your post LO in my opinion. MB couldn;t save your admitted "sham" of a marriage, so you advise against it even in well-starred relationships as Suzet's seems to be ?

I wasn't advising against anything, bob. I was expressing support for the plan she and her H developed together. That's all that really matters.

She shouldn't feel bad or defective because it varies from the formula.

You're right...I'm pretty bitter about marriage lately. I hope it may change, but right now, it will be cold day in the Congo before I'll consider remarrying.

My entire identity was wrapped up in marriage, family and church. Apart from those things, I had NO IDEA who I was.

Let me ask you a "straw man" type question.

If I drive to work tomorrow at an excessive speed, yet I arrive safely but regret my action and commit to change it, do you think it necessary that the constable should hunt me down anyway and give me ticket just so I'll experience the consequences of my actions?

Do you think an inexperienced captain who nearly grounds his ship should turn around sink it just to get the full effect of his bad decision?

Or, is it possible that we can learn and change without having to precipitate the disaster?

I'm not saying my case and Suzet's case are alike. I am saying that some folks can learn from near misses and change to accommodate. Only they know.

I see too much advice around here that encourages folks to fall on their swords just so they can make sure they don't make war again.

I'll play <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you survived the bad choice and did not have an accident (but came damn close) ... would you advise others to do the same because it worked for you?

Pep

Of course I would. And I have.

This where I've come to a difference with MB...

If I find a woman at work attractive, but choose not act on it, I have not had an affair. I have lived a typical day in the life of a man.

Now, PORH says I should go home and "confess". Only I know if my marriage is in a place where we can discuss these kinds of events without damaging us.

I don't regret telling my wife about contact. It was what we agreed to. I am highly disappointed and hurt by her response to it...but that's her choice.

Falling on our sword is not always the best option.

f I drive to work tomorrow at an excessive speed, yet I arrive safely but regret my action and commit to change it, do you think it necessary that the constable should hunt me down anyway and give me ticket just so I'll experience the consequences of my actions?

LO I drive a lot for work. I drive in Germany a lot with unrestricted motorways.

A couple of years ago I was driving in England and was photographed by police travelling in excess of 100 mph. We have a 70 MPH speed limit on UK motorways. I usually tried to drive safely but I was in a hurry, and I thought it was safe to do so. Previously I've always thought " phew that was close!" and resolved to drive more carefully. But clearly that recolve didn't last long each time.

The cop who nicked me showed me the movie in his car and pointed out all the hazards I ignored as I sped along, probably on the phone with one hand on the wheel. I was horrified.

My consequences were a hefty fine and points on my driving license but I was so concerned by how terrible my driving had become I booked up for some advanced driving tuition. I actually considered my fine and points to be KIND compared to what could have happened.

I haven't driven so recklessly since.

Trying to do the right thing ain't nearly so effective as being nicked and having someone explain how much worse the consequences COULD have been IME.

Contacting OMW is the "fine and points" penalty for Suzet IMO.

The penalty for NOT respondng to the hazard properly is that her marrige could crash and burn at 100 mph.

So, are you saying we aren't capable of learning from, and changing our behavior only when we're nicked? I suppose I fundamentally disagree with this.



So, what authority is forcing her to pay that fine and points? Her H certainly isn't. I can assure you that I would thankful with getting off with with a warning ticket.

But - she and her H ARE responding to the hazard - in a way that is agreeable to both of them.

So, are you saying we aren't capable of learning from, and changing our behavior only when we're nicked? I suppose I fundamentally disagree with this.

What I'm saying is when a thing is pleasurable to us we sometimes require a hot consequence to remind us that not everything we enjoy is good for us or others. If people did as you suggest there would be no repeat offending, no rehab clinics, no traffic police, no prison guards.

So, what authority is forcing her to pay that fine and points? Her H certainly isn't. I can assure you that I would thankful with getting off with with a warning ticket.

Suzet has yet to feel any 'hot' consequnce of her A in my opinion. Her H has been reasonable to the max ( as is his right, of course) and apart from her H only OM knows about their affair.

She has not felt the shame of being exposed as the potential marriage-damager she is. Having to confront those facts is very useful in making WS into FWS in my experience. Including my own dear Squid. Suzet's H's and her strategy now is to do what they did before only moreso. Which led to NC violation and an escalation of where their affair left off. Hardly a successful template huh ?

Look, Suzet and H have every right to do what they want together, but its my DUTY as somebdy who knows and cares about there sit, to tell them that their chosen course of action is in no way well indicated for the end of their affair nor the success of their marrige. The fact that they agree it togther is sweet but foolish IMO.

Hi Lo,

So there were two big life lessons you could have taken away from this:

1) To honor your word, no matter what

2) Never confess your mistakes

Sounds like you only came away with #2?? That cant be what you're trying to say here, is it? - Dru

I'm absolutely not saying that.

What I am saying is there are times when discretion may be the better part of valor.

I will admit, if I hadn't previously agreed to with W to tell her about all contact, I would've thought twice about it.

I learned that here on this forum, btw.

Hazzard????? What Hazzard???? I don't see no hazzard.

The saddest thing here is that newbies will see on old seasoned MB'er recommending a course of action that is anti-MB and Harley principles. It may work for special people like Suzet for whom MB principles don't seem to apply but it won't work for most anyone else. But because Suzet propmotes this, by reason of her profile, others will blindly follow and say well, Suzet did it so I can.

LowOrbit, thanks very much for your post and understanding – I appreciate it.

LO, although I know that most people’s personal “truths” is relative and changed to fit their specific situations (my H think this as well), it’s difficult to not let their lectures bother me since honesty is an very important factor and my life and since the fact that the OMW doesn’t know about the past EA is a concern to me (although many on this thread might not believe this). After OM’s response on my NC letter, I also have a strong suspicion now that the he might be a predator and will try to seek out another “victim” and therefore continue with such behavior/attempts behind his W’s back. That’s why I was on one stage thinking of sending OMW an anonymous letter in stead or sending this thread to her from an unknown e-mail address, but as I’ve stated the other day, I will not do anything without my H’s agreement and approval. To do otherwise will not be Marriage Building. As you’ve said, in the end my H and I have to decide what is best for us and our marriage.

I does bother me to a degree that some on these boards view me in a very negative light now, but to submit to my H and honor him (especially after the recent happenings) is much more important to me than to try and please anyone on these boards or “win back” anyone’s approval…

I’m so sorry this happened to you LO… your ex-W’s relentless and cold behavior after your honest and open confession towards her is shocking (yesterday I’ve also read your response to my H and he was also shocked) but you know what LO? I still think it was the best thing you could have done to tell your ex-W about the contact because although it have lead to the end of your M, it’s very clear that she didn’t want to be in the M in any longer, wasn’t committed to you and as you’ve said – was only looking for an excuse. So even if you haven’t told her about the contact, she would have found another excuse later on…it was only a matter of time. And better sooner than later.

I would also add that MB and many of its members view everything as either “black” or “white” and I don’t always agree with this approach and viewpoint. I believe there are many “grey” areas in life which might ask for different approaches and which might deviate from certain “well proofed-and-tested” principles. But the fact that one might deviate from such a principle doesn’t mean one don’t believe in the effectiveness and success of such a principle…not at all. Every situation is different.

I never realized you are also a South-African. The world (or this forum in this case) is very “small” isn’t it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> H and I live in the Gauteng area but we love to go to the Margate/Uvongo beach during vacations. I know the Cape is a beautiful place and it must be very nice to live their. The closest I was to the Cape was Knysna and George but that was years ago! Me and my H’s mother tongue is Afrikaans and I know a huge part of the population in the Cape is also Afrikaans speaking.

Bob, I disagree with this statement... Like LO I believe that one can learn from one’s mistakes and change one’s behavior without getting “nicked” or suffer extreme consequences.

Bob, apart from the heavy guilt; disappointment etc. I had to endure towards myself after the e-mail exchanges, I have already atoned and “penalized” myself by confessing to my H; watching his pain and by confessing to these boards.

I always though the main purpose of telling OMW would be because she deserves the truth and needs to know what was going on behind her back and of course, to keep her H in tact and prevent him from contacting me again (or praying on other “victims”)…but now, with your words above (quote) you let it sound if the main reason you (and probably others) wants the OMW to know is so that I can be exposed as a potential marriage-damager to hopefully suffer "hot" and extreme consequences like public humiliation and loss of reputation – that I must first literally be “nailed to a cross” or “beaten to death” before I have suffered enough to feel the consequences and be called a FWW again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

But neither me nor my H thinks I need that in order to learn, change or be a FWW Bob… My H realize I had a weak & vulnerable moment and made a terrible mistake by responding to OM and admitting past feelings to him... I have taken immediate steps to correct that Bob (by confessing to my H and send approved NC letter) and my H have taken all these things into consideration... I have already repented and received my H’s and God’s forgiveness… And thankfully my God is a loving and forgiving God who don’t thinks I first need to be “nicked” and suffer “public humiliation” and “loss of reputation” (and other extreme consequences) before I can be cleansed from my sins…

What I find so funny is that everyone was on my case when I’ve showed unwillingness to expose to OMW, but after I’ve gave it some thought and asked input from members about an anonymous letter or sending this thread to her anonymously, NO ONE responded on my suggestion (except MrsWonderings). This further confirms my feeling that the main motivation I was asked by some members to expose to OMW was because they wanted me to suffer "very hot" consequences or (as LO has expressed it) “to fall on my own sword” <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> and not (as I originally thought) so that OMW could know the truth. I'm sorry to say but actually this leads me to believe that some members motivation behind this (to advise me to expose) was not so pure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> However, I hope I'm wrong...

BigK, I don’t promote or recommend anything which is anti-MB and Harley principal at all – I also don’t think the MB principles don’t apply to me - it does. Please understand, the course of action me and my H take only deviate from the MB and Harley principals due to our personal circumstances. This is all. What is best for us at this stage will not necessarily be the best course of action for someone else in another situation and with other circumstances than me and my H. But if you feel this thread will have such a negative impact on newbies you can always ask that this thread be removed so that there exist no such danger at all. However, I’m sure if such a newbie read here and think if “Suzet did it so can I” many of the old-timers will immediately correct such a person and give such a person the best advice for his/her specific situation and circumstances.

Suzet,

Just so we're clear here, my motivation in telling you to expose is 2 fold here:-

1. To get an ally for your husband to really be sure the affair is dead which it most surely will be if OM'W finds out the dirty secret.
2. So OM's W can make decisions about her life so far denied to her by you.

Your ritual punishment is not a consideration here by me, nor I suspect most other people.

Suzet, it is incredible the lengths to which you are prepared to go to justify not doing the right thing here. Not doing the decent thing for that other poor woman.

I've said it previously, but I will say it again:

Exposure is NOT just my decision. I can not and will not do anything without my H’s agreement and approval regarding this issue. To do otherwise will not be Marriage Building but the exact opposite.

This is baloney Suzet.

Imagine this..because this is what I hear you saying.

You and OM shot his wife in the back.

She is laying on the ground bleeding to death.

You think..huh..maybe I ought to call for medical assistance.

BUT....

Your H has put his lion to sleep and picked up the weenie waffler card..

He says to you..No..I'd rather just put this behind us. Let's toss her body and the gun into the river and move on.

Does marriage building at that point throw morality under the bus?

I think not.

He's being weak. You know it. It's very convenient.

It hasn't worked out very well for your marriage so far.

The bottom line is..you *owe* her the truth. You are in debt and refusing to ante up.

This one issue is not about your marriage..it is not about YOU..it is about your *victim* and doing right by her whether her lying scum of an H decides to or not.

Personally..I don't care what method you use..write it in dishsoap on her car winshield if you want.

Send her a dancing singing showgirl with a big poster.

Just get it done..because if you don't..you are still a liar..no matter what marriage building efforts you put forth.

What is worse..you are allowing your H to sink to the depths with you in his fear and trembling..he has become callous to anyone but himself and you.

Hi, Suzet...

I think a better way to describe your case could be one of weighing the outcome of two tacks...

Your PRIMARY concern at this point is the recovery of YOUR marriage. That's why it's important to weigh the impact of further exposure on recovering your own situation.

In my case, it became apparent very quickly that contact with OWH was counterproductive. HIS objectives were to hurt me like I had hurt him, so he told my wife a series of obvious lies. He pestered her at odd hours. He outright asked her to have revenge SF so they could even the playing field. We both agreed to terminate contact.

I agree that she SHOULD know...but you and your H have the right to decide if it's in your marriage's best interest to be that messenger.

Oh, I'm not a SA native. I've only been here since late March on a one year contract. I'm afraid my Afrikaans is pathetic!