LO..

How can you weigh an unknown sum?

She can't know what will be the outcome before it occurs.

Your OWs BS had a bad reaction..but that is totally irrelevent..his reaction belongs to him..not to you.


Also..you have no idea [because that road wasn't taken] what would have been the outcome of NOT exposing to OWH..none..all you know is that it was ugly and you didn't like it.

Noodle, thanks for your post. I understand what you’re saying with your “shot in the back” analogy, but here the thing (please read this with an open mind and don’t immediately rush it off as justifications or rationalizations by either me or my H):

My H will view your “shot in the back” analogy as a total exaggeration of our situation and the way I was involved with the OM (maybe "heavily injured" but not "shot and bleading to death"). If me and OM had gone a step further than admitting feelings and have actually acted on those feelings, my H would certainly view it much more serious and as “shooting OMW in the back”. However, with the recent contact, me and the OM have for the first time admitted past feelings of love towards one another. I KNOW this was terribly wrong and terribly inappropriate (to respond to OM and admitting those feelings)…and I take full responsibility for my behavior, but the fact is that I’ve not acted on those feelings yet…in stead I have immediately taken corrective steps by confessing to my H and make it clear to OM that what we did (admitting past feelings) were wrong and that I therefore WILL NOT and CAN NOT have deliberate contact with him EVER again. I really do feel very serious about it this time...

Noodle, I’ve posted to Bob the other day that I know the fact that I was involved in EA and not PA plays a major role in my H’s viewpoints and attitude about our specific situation. It's not becaue he is weak and callous... My H said to me himself that he would have felt totally different and would react differently if I was previously involved in PA and/or have already crossed boundaries into admitting "feelings of love" towards OM before the recent e-mails. I think in such a case he would immediately expose.

Further, my H feels because most responses are from people who’ve previously had EA/PA’s or whose FWS’s was involved in EA’s and PA’s, he feels our specific situation can not measure up and that certain actions (such as exposure to OMW by us without concrete evidence) will be out of proportion for our specific situation at this stage. He takes into consideration that people are posting from their specific circumstances and past histories. However, my H said should OM ever try to deliberately contact me again he will definately reconsider. He has also made it clear to me that he will not allow a next "slip up" and that he will not be so forgiving towards met AT ALL should there ever be a next time...

However, I personally think an anonymous letter will be okay (actually a close woman friend at my work has suggested this to me), but since even an anonymous letter can have consequences (OM will know who's behind it and contact me again), I don’t want to do it before I have my H’s full agreement and approval.

Suzet... I have tried to be supportive of you here but that is becoming imcreasingly difficult with each post from you. You sound like a typical WS (note, not FWS) in the middle of a HUGE fog. Your justifications are without merit and tired. The OW has a right to know and since it was YOU that assaulted her M... it should be you or your H that does the deed here.
You are quite shrewd with your words... because I don't believe for a second that if you went to your H right now and told him that you feel guilt over the OW not knowing AND think this is the best way to ensure NC that he would balk at contacting OW. YOu have played him and continue to do so. Your continued vicious treatment of the OW is without justification.
Your H and you both have the duty to act with integrity. Obviously you have steered this ship in a direction where that is just a speck on the horizon. And your downplaying the impact of your professions of love for one another on the OW is sickening.

Mkeeverydaycnt, if you view me as being in the fog and downplaying the effect of professions of love towards the OW (which I’m not), then you imply the same towards my H (that he is in a fog too and downplaying the effects). Unfortunately it’s only me who are posting here and I was only trying to explain me and my H’s POV about all this… I really want people to just understand our situation and where we are coming from with our opinions, but since everything I say or try to explain is interpreted as justifications and rationalizations I can’t see any further use. I’m sure my posts are very frustrating to read and I understand that, but this is very frustrating for me too... To be accused of being in the fog; rationalize and justify; being shrewd and “playing” my H while all I want to do is explain (not justify and rationlize) and want people to at lease have some understanding (not necessarily agree). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Suzet, you are correct in a manner of speaking... I do see your H being impacted by all this. I don't know if I would call it a fog or not... but the symptoms are similar. He's probably afraid of losing you AGAIN... he most likely wants to please you in order to keep your affections (since you gave them away to the OM). If he was thinking clearly... IMO... he would insist that the OW know in order to help shield your M from further assaults. He would clearly see that he needs an ally in this battle and that YOU cannot be trusted to be that ally just yet (because of your recent activities). But he, more so than you.. should be able to look at this situation and ask... "what if it were me in the dark right now???"
I am not accusing you of being in a fog..... it is my interpretation of your actions. Your reasoning is not to be trusted right now. That is not a judgment of you.. it is an observation. The very nice part of MB is that when you are in the middle of crisis and least able to make rational and well thought out decisions (a WW and BS are too hurt to think clearly) you have a road map as to how to proceed. Your own map has proven to be wrong time and again... perhaps it is time to follow the directions of others that give you best chance of reaching your destination.

Mkeverydaycnt, thank you for still posting to me and taking the time…I do appreciate that. I understand what you’re saying with your post... Maybe you are right and my H is trusting me too much at this stage…maybe I am trusting myself too much…but I would like to believe otherwise...that I can be trusted in spite of the recent happenings. I would like to show myself and my H that I’m worthy of that trust…that I will not fail again. That’s very important to me.

You are welcome.
Suzet... even though I disagree with your logic at this point.. I sincerely hope that you and your H find your way. At the heart of all this is a desire to see you recover. Do something for the BS on this site...including me... at least consider finding some way to let the wife know what has gone on. No steps today are required... just think about some ways that you could accomplish that task... strengthen your M... honor your H... I think that you will find that you can do all of these things and more. And at the end of the day, you will not carry around the guilt of keeping her in the dark. I know that has to be bothering you no matter the reasoning for not telling her yet. Guilt can be pervasive... it is like a cancer...
YOU would want to know Suzet. Your H would want to know. The Golden Rule applies here... do unto others...
So, at least give it some thought for today.
I wish you peace and happiness. And to borrow a line... "let your conscience be your guide."

We do it all the time, noodle. It's called risk management .



Agreed. But she can and should evaluate the possible outcomes.


I agree that his actions belonged to him...however they IMPACTED us...that makes it very relevant.



The fact that I didn't like it was irrelevant. The fact that he was endangering our recovery was very much relevant.
We initially considered the risks and decided he should know more. When he became erratic and became a danger to our recovery, WE decided to terminate contact. My situation was a bit different from Suzet's...the OWH actually exposed to my W.

The point I was trying to make is that decisions made during recovery should be POJA and must weigh the potential impact of the action on that recovery.

It's like rescuing a drowning man. My family is in this boat. If I try to save him I risk capsizing the boat and losing everyone. That's my decision. I have to live with it either way.

So true, so true.

Suzet, you said it well when you said you should not do anything without your husband's "enthusiastic agreement."

Otherwise that's not building love between you and your husband.

-HD

Even when what is agreed is highly indicated to be destructive to their marrige ?

If Suzet and H POJAed to try 'swinging', or meth use, that would be MB sound because it was POJAed ?

My own W threatened me with vicious consequences if I exposed to OMS GF, but I exposed because I determined the action was important and righteous enough to do regardless of her 'enthusiastic agreement'. I would certainly be divorced now had I not exposed AGAINST Squids direct wishes. Was that not MB ?

What Suzet and H have POJAed here is very poorly indicated for their marriage , and to defend it by claiming "POJA is marrigebuilding" is a smokescreen to justify CA IMO.

Not every situation is the same as yours, Bob.

In Suzet's case it's the "BS" (her husband) that does not want exposure at this time. Suzet actually does. So, they are working together through MB principles to solve their marital difficulties. I imagine that if the OM tries to contact her again they will probably escalate their exposure, but for now they are doing what they feel is best for them.

They are working together as a team now, which is a little different than what was happening with you and your wife at that time...

-HD

I never had an affair...
Husband never had an affair...

have no affair baggage one way or the other...

makes me shake my head to watch relative moralism get swatted about...

I think the wife has the right to know...

that the right to know is key to making informed decisions...

and when we hold in our hand the ability to allow someone access to information that has potentialy profound effects on them...

we should speak it...

all this accusation of emotional baggage..
black and white thinking..
blah blah blah....

relative moralism...

I believe she has the right to know....

but I'm sure we can find label to stick on me for beleiving that....

I have barely read this post..
people choose every day to cheat.. not to cheat..
to contact to not contact..
to breach vows to not breach vows...

life goes on and on and on...

tomorrow is the new day..and we will each choose again...

not convinced either that recovery of marriage is always the most important thing

also the leap that telling the wife is the deathtoll of the marriage.....is a pretty big leap..in my opinion...

your husband is giving you permission to keep information from him as well...



ARK^^

I imagine that if the OM tries to contact her again they will probably escalate their exposure, but for now they are doing what they feel is best for them.


HD no offense intended but have you actually READ Suzet's situation ?

OM had zero bad consequences against further contact ( no exposure) so he contacted further. This smashed Suzet's well intentioned defence and led to mutual escalation of the affair.

What Suzet andher H propose is EXACTLY what has failed so miserably before.

Om STILL has zero consequences of further action, and now knows Suzet pines for him as he does her.

How can doing the same failed thing ne correct for their marrige, just because they POJA it ?

"lets POJA pretending it ever happened"

* sigh *

Backing out. My words are just gas here....

Hi again, Suzet*,

I did appreciate your response a few pages back, but to be honest, this whole situation has gotten out of hand... so much so, I felt that I should back away.

I have kept up, though...

HurtingDeeply is in the VERY SMALL minority of those who have survived and thrived without using the most important concepts (to me) - those being NO CONTACT and WIDESPREAD EXPOSURE. HD and his wife, however, HAVE survived and over the years I have come to believe that HD believes in his soul what he is saying... there is no dodging or pretending... and I don't feel duped or like I'm being yanked around when he talks. I don't always agree with him, but I like and respect him. I think he's the real deal.

In your case, Suzet*, it seems like we're going around and around the truth. You don't want to rock the boat, and luckily, neither does your H.

I do get what a POJA is, and how important it is... but as others have said, what if? What if your H didn't want you to call the police about someone who abused your children, or a dangerous drunk driver you witnessed on the road, or a friend who asked you to lie under oath? What then, Suzet*? Would YOUR ethics win out over his fears of retaliation?

Suzet*... whether or not your telling the W is the deathtoll of OM's marriage is NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

Sigh.

It hurts me to read this, so I think I really do need to back away. I hate seeing people lie to themselves.

Bob,

I understand what you are saying about the OM not suffering any consequences (and I also know how painful something like that can be – especially in the eyes of a “betrayed spouse,” like you and I), however, I think that Suzet and her H have made it clear that he will suffer consequences if he tries anything again in the future. So, we’ll just have to see if that works or not.

I do not feel they are POJA’ing that it never happened, but I know many here feel differently and I can understand their viewpoint.

NB,

Yes, I am in a VERY SMALL minority, and I probably should have never poked my nose into this thread. I’ve been smacked around pretty good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

(Sound familiar)? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

But thanks for the defense. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do think that Suzet and her H don’t want to rock the boat at this time, but if that’s what they want then that’s what they want. I just hope that this is something that helps to bring THEM closer together, so that it will help to protect Suzet from any more weakness if/when the OM comes calling again.

I know many analogies have been thrown around here about abusing the POJA (swinging, meth, child abuse, etc.), and they are valid points. The POJA can be abused very easily if it’s wrapped in Love Busters, or if one spouse is gaining at the expense of another, or if it's about breaking the law, etc. From what I’ve seen here, though, that doesn’t seem to be the case in my eyes. They both seem to have come to an agreement on what to do.

I think JL said it best a few pages back when he said they seem to be “communicating and developing plans to address future issues.”

All I’m doing now is just rooting for them and hoping that it works.

-HD

THIS has NOTHING to do with making ANYONE suffer..

when did marriagebuilders become anything about making someone suffer...

THIS

THIS is about the wife of OM being entitled to information of grave importance....

what she does with it is her choice...

rock the boat
suffer
punish...

has nothing to do with any of those...and if those are the only things that motivate people to do things...

pretty sad world....

sacrifice the wife of the OM in the name of saving themselves....

ironically saving themselves from whom?.. but themselves...

she remains the innocent in this ...
and no one speaks for her...

ARK

Next time? Next time? Hmmm, I think this was the next time.

So, just say this NEXT time he makes contact and Suzet and her husband still do not want to rock the boat then we'll all be here watching a train wreck again.

Next Time, Suzet and the OM may go further in the relationship.

Next time- that is kind of like saying you'll do something tomorrow and tomorrow never comes.

I do believe next time is a cop out.

If you ask me, (and no one has so I don't even know why I am adding this)...

As a former BS some years ago, I have a little bit of my insight on this. I contacted the OMW just mere seconds after discovering the XW's A...

Anyway, I think (my opinion...no statistics) a lot of BS enter into a "fog" immediately after D-Day, whether it be the first or the umpteenth time. This "fog" is denial. I can remember that for a little while I couldn't believe it...didn't want to believe it...didn't have to believe it...and the farther I excused myself from it, there was no need to believe it, because it didn't happen.

...First stage of grieving?

Maybe...just maybe...Suzet's H is in that place? A lot of times the pain is lessened by removing ourselves from it. Maybe he is taking this approach? Doesn't want to deal with it?

There is a time when Suzet may...just may...have to help her H deal with the reality of it, and NOT let him avoid it by sweeping it away. Regardless of POJA or not. POJA is NOT absolute, just as others are trying to say.

Methinks that if Suzet really sat down and tried to explain to H that the OMW needs to know...deserves to know....and that Suzet needs to get this out to OMW, her H just may be agreeable.

Suzet, are you certain that you are not POJA'ing this issue because it is convienent, and not because you feel it is the moral and right thing to do? There are instances where YOU have to take the lead and do what needs to be done.

Just like others have said....you don't POJA things that are wrong, destructive, or deceptive...


My .02


HCII

"Further, my H feels because most responses are from people who’ve previously had EA/PA’s or whose FWS’s was involved in EA’s and PA’s, he feels our specific situation can not measure up and that certain actions

(such as exposure to OMW by us without concrete evidence)"

Print and send her the emails...allow her to decide what is hers to decide...

"will be out of proportion for our specific situation at this stage."

It may be out of proportion to her or in proportion...unless you respect her enough, she won't have that opportunity to decide what is or is not important. You're deciding for her.

"He takes into consideration that people are posting from their specific circumstances and past histories. However, my H said should OM ever try to deliberately contact me again he will definately reconsider. He has also made it clear to me that he will not allow a next "slip up" and that he will not be so forgiving towards met AT ALL should there ever be a next time..."

What is the right thing to do next time, would be the right thing to do now...

Respectfully,

LA

I agree with this completely. I just exposed to OM's W by sending her a package today. My H also did not want to expose, for the very reasons that hcii spoke of above. I'm waiting for my H to come home from work right now so I can tell him. I'm absolutely terrified, but I know I did the right thing. I hope my H eventually agrees.