Isn't that the nature of any generalization? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Yet you say you DON'T AGREE with Dr. Harley's principle? WHY?

ML,

It's not that I don't agree with any of his principles.

By the way, that quote that you gave to me earlier:

cc46 wrote: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2942830


I went back and read that thread, and the quote had to do with whether or not a WS should confess to their "own" spouse. It had nothing to to with exposure to the "OP's Spouse." So, that particular item was really taken out of context. I am all for a WS to expose their affair to their own spouse (Policy of Radical Honesty, right?) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That said, I would like to say this (again putting Suzet's situation aside)....

Let's say Dr. Harley is counseling a couple. The affair is over, and both the BS and WS are in recovery and trying to recommit to the marriage.

Now, Dr. Harley may bring up exposure to the "OP's Spouse." He may ask them if they did this, and he may very well recommend that they do.

But let's say the spouses come back and say, "Well, we talked it over, and although we know that the OP's spouse has a right to know, we choose not to be the messenger. We will leave it up to the OP to disclose that if he/she wishes. We want no further part with them and would rather just focus on our own marriage and making that better."

Now, if that were the case. I'm sure Dr. Harley would not say, "If you don't disclose to the OP's Spouse I'm not counseling with you anymore!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure he would rather say that he would advise them to reconsider, but if they made this agreement using the POJA he would also probably congratulate them on using MB Principles to solve a marital conflict. He may then very well tell them, "Well, let's put exposure on the side for now, and let's instead work on you two getting better at using the 'Basic Concepts' and '4 Rules' in order to strengthen your marital behaviors and make your marriage stronger, etc, etc, etc."

Don't you think he would say something along those lines?

I do.

-HD

HD, no, the situation Dr. Harley spoke about was in regard to a BS telling the OTHER BS. You are looking at the wrong thread. The situation Dr. Harley commented on was an affair that was 4 years DEAD and the other BS notified the BS since the WS did not. As Dr. Harley stated on that case, the "BS should always be told."

He does not ever qualify that with "only certain people can tell the BS." It is a general principle that is NOT a matter of POJA. Anyone who KNOWS should tell the BS.

And I think you are going out of your way to split hairs over a generalization so you can find cause to disagree. Every generalization, by its nature, has exceptions, but that does not make the generalization untrue. The exception does not define the RULE, in other words.

I am sure this is wishful thinking on your part, HD, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> as Dr. Harley has stated that exposure to the betrayed spouses is not a matter of POJA. Somehow I don't think he expected folks to use one MB principle to break another. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Then I would

No ML, I’m not splitting hairs here (I’m not a hair stylist, you know!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But, I still feel that the quote you referenced had to do with whether or not a WS should expose their affair to their own spouse. On this I absolutely agree.

Exposure to the betrayed spouse (by the WS) is not a matter of the POJA. You have said this repeatedly and I agree with you. They should do it because of the Policy of Radical Honesty. They should confess to their spouse that they had an affair, and then hopefully work on restoring their marriage.

But exposure to the “OP’s Betrayed Spouse,” I believe is a matter of the POJA under certain circumstances (I’m not commenting on Suzet’s case in particular. I’m just saying in generalization terms). I’m sure many variables are involved here – whether the affair is still ongoing, whether it’s over, if the WS has come back and recommitted to the marriage, etc.

If the affair was still on, and the WS was so fog-bound that you could not negotiate the end of the affair or to come back and recommit to the marriage, then yes – use exposure as a tool to help bring about the end of the affair.

But I do believe that Dr. Harley would say something very similar to what I wrote under the scenario that I presented. 2BNormal is an example of that. He said that the “OP’s Spouse” should be told, but that if they refused to do so then let’s instead just work on you two for the time being and try and make your marriage better.

Also, see K’s quote that I referenced above. It had to do with this very topic on using the POJA as a tool in marriage building and practicing better marital behaviors.

-HD

I think you may have missed my point HD



yes ... the M is harmed... everyone agrees

but beyond that

and perhaps worse than that

she harms HERSELF as she weakens/ignores her morals in order to accomodate her OCD/anxiety

and this will exacerbate her OCD

because Suzet* wants to be a morally upstanding woman

she's in a hole, and the first thing is to stop digging

then lift herself out

not hide out

Suzet* is not one of those morally loose women who can live comfortably with herself when she is going against her values... at least that is my impression of her

this "not telling" going against her OWN values will be like a brain-worm .... crawling around in her head ... scratching the OCD & she will overthink this instead of closing the book once & for all

her 3rd NC letter !!!!

OUCHIE

Pep

I didn’t miss your point Pep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Suzet is in a bind, and she and her H need to work it out as best as they can. Hopefully she can get an answer straight from Dr. Harley with her email about this issue since it seems to be a point of contention between her and her H.

3rd Letter is a big ouchie!

Let’s hope there doesn’t have to be a 4th! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Gotta go and get some work done now…

-HD

Truly,
One basic problem with this philosophy of Only telling the OPS 99% {or less} of time (due to these so-called variable loop hole outs) is this:
Unfortunately,
Almost EVERYONE when dealing with an affair (as it is soooo personal) THINKS that "their" case is the exception or is unique or is others wise THE special example.

Then add in the fear of what MIGHT happen (justified or rational or not) .....along with things like shame and appearances ......and guess what?
Darn few people outside of the initial Discovery Triangle (WS, BS, OP) would ever Know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Well, like it or not .......when both infidels are married, its a rectangle <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.......NOT a triangel. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

IT sure is Strange ----
BS's that KNOW of the A....but somehow "Say" they don't really want to Know
and wouldn't Want to be told EVER.
[Because that IS the position they are confirming, if it was by some chance that the OPS had found out instead of them].

Well, that's a convenient position to have considering They DO KNOW now!
Know What I Mean??

Very Odd that person's Using an infidelity board (and its Other Resources) to Heal and Improve their marriages ...wouldn't WANT to know of the BASIC Problem "in" their marriage.
Weird to say the least. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


*****************
And if the nay sayers want to come back with its the Always the duty of the WS to ONLY tell their OWN BS .....well, since FEW People really want to OUT themselves (hence all the lies and compartmentilizing to begin with) .....I got just one word for YA:
"PLEEEEAAAAAAAZZZZZZEEEEE"!

I would not contact Dr Harley when I am struggling with an issue of my own morals & values ... I would go to my pastor.

Need a loaf or bread? Don't go to the hardware store.

Pep

HD,

I want to offer some concrete reasons why telling the OPS about the affair is ethical choice.

*The OPS has no knowledge of the A....therefore is missing information about what has caused the inevitable lack of energy in the marriage. Without the truth, he/she is denied the information needed to understand the withdrawal, the risks, or implement marriage saving strategies that might help save their marriage and the child/parent relationship that is interrupted by divorce. Knowledge is power. This situation is unlikely to be improved by greater ignorance of the real problems.

*If the OP can do it once....they are more likely to do it again. That translates into some REAL health risks for an unknowing OPS who doesn't even have the information to at least protect their own health when there spouse is sexually active outside of the marriage. Not all of their affair partners may be as chaste as some....we live in dangerous world.

*Marriage counseling....which might be utilized by an OPS because they know about infidelity is less likely to be utilized or taken advantage of.

*The very real chance that the affair will come to light anyway is real and looming. What happens after an OPS finds out that everyone else knew....but he/she didn't....and that they invited the OP to dinner or confided in them at social events? It's a cruel and avoidable situation that knowledge gives them a CHOICE in.

*The OPS has the same right to choose as everyone else....but without the information...they can't make an informed decision. Why is the BS the only one who has the right to choose if they want to remain married to an unfaithful spouse? I don't believe that it's ethical to deny anyone the right to choose by knowing the TRUTH....even it's painful.

Now....having said all of that....if the OPS was dying from cancer....I'd say "no chere....let him/her die in peace" but it would take that kind of exception to make me veer from what I honestly believe is the ethical choice.

hugs!

No, the phone call was about a situation where the BS exposed to the OTHER BS. This is not a matter of "feelings", but a matter of FACT. It was regarding a situation that was being hotly discussed on the board at the time.

Since all of the rest of your points emanate from that misunderstanding, I will let you reframe your response.