Ummm... I am a grab the bull by the nuts type of guy...I say it is way past time for you to have a face to face with her OM. Get his home and work addresses and decide where you would most like to have this "discussion." Let him know in no uncertain terms that you know what they have been doing and make him think you are a bit "nuts." If he is married...expose, expose, expose to his family. They all have a right to know what a no good, piece of [censored] he really is.
Be brave... if you are not, pretend, nobody can tell the difference.

WHOA THERE MEDC...

With all due respect, I don't think that Paul is ready to go putting the "bull" before the cart here...specially if there is farm animal genitalia grabbin' involved, JMHO...LOL... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Also, the letting the OM think he's a bit nuts would likely backfire and just become fodder...Plus, I'm guessin' that OM is kinda a Country Willard from Footloose type of guy...You do know that in the country there is the "he needin' killin' defense" don't cha? Exposure is one thing (and MUST be done), but Paul doesn't need to be goin' out all half cocked right now...Baby steps donchaknow? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

I will tell you, after yesterday and the rough conversation I had on the phone with my wife where I hung up and now her email is changed...there is an ERIE silence.

No emails. No contact. Nothing.

She did email me yesterday after the conversation on the phone and wanted to know what "all that was about on the phone" and what I heard and she wishes that I could talk to her about it.

I ALMOST sent an email last night, but I didn't.

I guess the HARDEST thing for me right now is either...letting go or hanging on. But deep in my heart, I truly feel that she doesn't want me back, even if she was not in this "fog" with her ex bf.

There are two sides to me right now...the emotion saying that I do love and care for her very much (for good and bad) and then there is the logical side that says, can I trust her again and also deal with her immaturity, her drinking issues, the fact she really hasn't grown up, her really bad communication problems and confronting issues (like myself), etc.

I'm just worn. And these erie silence remains. I wonder how she is taking things from yesterday. I'm sure she knows now that I did read her email and that will make her realize she is really busted. It was ALL there.

This morning I managed to get a haircut and go to the grocery store. Then I heard from a friend that the divorce filing was printed in the newspaper. Been crying off and on about that ever since.

Just one of those horrible, painful days. I feel sad about us, sad I had to confront and hang up the phone, guilt about checking her email and breaking a level of trust, and just a sense of feeling really low.

Thanks for listening to me vent...just needed to get it off my chest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

HOW do you know this? Don't make assumptions for your WW. Disrespectful. You don't know. She doesn't know. She's under the influence. Fundamental to the MB way is to break the spell WW is under so that you and she can know for SURE if either one of you wants to stay in the M. Do you see that it means nothing for a WW to say or do things that indicate they don't want to be in the M?

This is not her decision. It's YOUR decision. A marriage CAN be rescued from infidelity. Don't worry about what your WW wants now. Or what you THINK she wants. Concentrate on what YOU want and operate INDEPENDENTLY of your WW. Make sense?

Really work on understanding how you did NOT betray trust by snooping. You had probable cause to look. And you did. To protect your OWN interests and the interests of your marriage. It's important that you shed the guilt you have for snooping. You are disrespecting yourself by hanging on to it.

Paul, instead of feeling guilty that you read her email, think of it this way - she was withholding from you critical information that directly affects your life. You had no other choice BUT to look at her email to find the truth. And who is the person responsible for leaving you no other alternative? Your WW, because she lied to you, over and over again, and withheld this vital information that you needed and had a right to.

So how do I break the "fog" and REALLY know if she wants out because of the fog or if she wants out...because she just wants out and has for a long time?

If I did get her over to the house, what would be an example of a conversation I could have? What would be the main points? My actions?

I'm sorry...I'm just so exhausted from all this and I think she is in SO deep with her situation, her living situation and the influence of friends, influence of alcohol and always socializing, etc. that I don't see her even giving it a go. She has never been one to face things head-on. She has even said before that she "hopes things will just go away" instead of dealing with them.

In my heart and gut I just feel it is over...truly. She doesn't want to come back to a husband that made her feel "alone" in a marriage.

Okay Paul...I get it, I KNOW that this is painful and hard, and everything else that goes with it...But right now, I'm NOT gonna coddle you, because that is NOT what you NEED...Like it or not, this is all part of YOUR LIFE EXPERIENCE...You only get one shot to be the person that YOU want to be, so we are going to wipe the slate clean and start from that, k? You are here, it is what it is...So NOW is the time to "PUT ON YOUR BIG BOY PANTIES AND DEAL WITH IT"!!! You are NOT gonna wallow in misery...NO WAY...COURAGE IS IN THE DOING...Let's get moving...What do YOU want?

Mrs. W

Paul...
First of all... disregard anyone here saying that you have been disrespectful. There are some on this site that love to throw around that term as though it is candy. There is nothing you have done here that is disrespectful.
As far as what to do... call the Harley's and read... read... read... ask yourself "do I really want this M? Why? Am I prepared for the fight?"
Your actions should be direct..if you want her back... expose her A to EVERYONE! Let her know that you know everything and do not let her lie her way around fact.
You had every right to snop and will maintain that right for the rest of your M. Your W betrayed you in every way possible.
If you really want this M to work out... I would suggest obtaining your blueprint from the Harley's. But before you take that road... make sure that you are not just hanging on to something because of the fear of change.... the fear of losing someone.... make sure it is because you feel that your life would be best spent with the woman you married. If that is the decision you reach there are a lot of good people here that will help you along that bumpy road. You can do everything right and your WW may not want to come along for the ride. She seems pretty immature and self entitled... trashing you to her friends and such.
Be strong... ask yourself the tough questions about why you want to save this marriage....take care of you first and then if you decide to do it... work on your M. My suspicion though is that your W has made up her mind. She has started a divorce proceeding and that is pretty heavy stuff.
I am sorry that you are going through this. I wish you luck.

Paul,

I agree what others have been saying but I just have a wierd feeling something is missing here.

I don't know what it is but it needs to be figured out.

You let her leave and she filed for a D.

If you did not think she was seeing the OM how would you feel about this?

I mean it kinda sounds like you want her back because someone else wants her now.

My FWW and I had some hard times but I would have never agreed to a separation. To me that is the legal time between M and D.

I understand you are taking ownership of your issues (anxiety etc).

I don't want you to think I am being harsh or judgemental. Or that I am devaluing the love you have for your W.

I just want to ask those questions so you can answer them to yourself.

Think about it before you proceed.

If you are doing this because you really want her back go full steam ahead. If you are doing it because you don't want someone else to have her then...I don't know.

Just as background, PaulD has been over at the EN board for about 4 months trying to figure out how to reach his wife. As far as he knew, she was just in real deep withdrawal from him. He only recently found out about the affair. But he has been trying hard to save the marriage for months now.

Here are the facts...

You are really young...

In a 3 year old marriage...

NO CHILDREN...

She is having a full blown affair...

She has filed for divorce...

She has a drinking problem, etc...

In your position, I would CUT BAIT, and RUN, not WALK...but you aren't me, so YOU must decide...I will tell you that even the Harleys have said where there are no children involved it's often best to let it go...but again, that must be YOUR decision...But EVEN then YOU MUST CONFRONT HER WITH WHAT YOU KNOW...YOU DO THIS FOR YOU...STAND UP FOR YOU!!!

Mrs. W

Honesty, I think the above statement rings true with me. I think what I'm holding onto is the IDEALIZED image of my wife, not the REAL person. AND...that I'm hanging on due to fear of not wanting to face being alone. I will admit that.

Yes, I do love and care for her greatly...but, as hard as it is for me to say...I need someone with more maturity and who will stick with me, and face real life. I'm not saying I'm perfect either, but I think deep down I know my wife and I are on two different levels of maturity and life goals and pleasures.

Mrs. W, your post was great and cuts to the chase. To me, to be honest, the drinking was too much. My wife gets really drunk at LEAST twice a week easily. She has filed for divorce already and has even said to me when I tried to kindly negotiate with her about our M..."I'm tired, please stop trying, you are only beating a dead horse".

I just feel like her world of drinking and socializing ALL the time to make her happy doesn't match up with me. I don't need to drink and I don't need to socialize much.

I think I'm at the point that I just REALLY need to disconnect and focus on God's plan for ME. Let it go to him as HARD as that is. As far as exposing the affair, it is only a matter of time until we talk again and I'm sure she is going to ask what it is I have heard, etc. Then I will just be frank, but not go into details. More of a "I know, and you know. It as wrong, hurtful, disrespectful, etc. That is all I'm going to say. End of story."

Cuth,

Thank you see I knew something was missing. LOL.

In away I agree with Mrs W.

One of the things that comes to mind as well is the 2 years number that gets thrown out here about getting things back to semi normal after the A has ended.

I wrote on another post today about the business priciple concerning return on investment. How much do you need to invest and what will you get in return.

The other analogy I make is that of a job. It is harder to walk away from a job you have had for 15 years because you have retirement more vacation etc then it is to walk away from a job you have had for three years.

I would never discount love though. Just because you don't have children and a longer marriage does not make this hurt any less. You have to do what is right for you.

Someone called me out one time because I said if I was in their position I would run away to. I have two kids it made it hard for me to do that. If I did not have kids I would be gone today. They gave me a reason to try and keep trying but without them I would not have been able to deal with the A. I know this because that is the type of person I am. I don't want to project on you my feelings but it is something you should think about.

Paul,

The drinking is a real consideration. You not only would be battling infidelity, but a drinking problem, too. And she sounds a long way from being ready to even acknowledge it, let alone deal with it.

Trying to get her out of the affair fog and the alcohol fog and the partying fog simulataneously would be a real task. Especially since she sounds to have a whole crowd around her urging her to continue on as she is.

Sometimes it is just best to cut your losses.

TruBluz

Paul - this is a fundamental question. Once that's very difficult to answer while you're swirling in the storm of an adulterous A. I didn't know either. Like HL I had kids that I THINK kept me in it.

Just don't want you see you use HER as the reason why you don't want back in, as in "She won't have me." I think you know this is all about you. Perphaps your WW is slumming with someone below your level because she knows you two are incompatible? There's a million ways to slice it. If you search your heart and find that the work is not worth the potential reward, no one is going to fault you.

If you think there's a chance that it could work then I would encourage you to try.

A very difficult decision to make that those of us with children were largely spared. I felt like I had to try if for no other reason than the kids. You're in a tough position. Good thing you're here though - MB board is a great place to work this stuff out.

The things that I'm facing with my wife are so strong of an influence I don't think they can be broken. Like it was stated earlier...

*She is in a full-blown affair

*She drinks a lot and always has to be "with" people that also share the same lifestyle of drinking. She easily gets drunk a couple times a week.

*She is living in her little country town with her folks, with the same people around her she had in high school, all drinkers, AND the current ex bf from high school.

*She also hasn't really "separated" those family ties enough to really be truly married I don't think. Cut the cord so to speak. What I mean by this is that she has never really grown independent from her parents.

*She has already filed and has never shown ANY signs or working together with me over the last 4 months of our separation even though I followed the MB principles.


These are all HUGE issues that all tie in together and I think the only thing that will break them is time and what happens to her. It isn't anything I can personally change or influence.

It is very sad, because my wife has a great heart, and right now I see her as a hurt little girl inside who is only running to whatever fills the void inside with her...friends, alcohol, etc. Being really alone is something she just can't stand.

She told me that she felt "alone" in the marriage. And I can see how she did, and I admitted my mistakes and taking her for granted. But now I'm starting to think...maybe she also felt ALONE on her own, despite me, and there was more to it than just me making her feel that way. Just a thought.

I've got to cut my lose and move on...even though it is so hard. I just don't like having this tension between us, but what she did was wrong.

Without going into the psychology of it all, I can tell you from personal experience that the issues you named above are a HUGE reason that she is involved in this affair...Development issues...stunted growth...stuck in adolescence...Those take a HUGE amount of internal work to get past, and if she isn't ready, willing and/or able, sadly, Paul she will be chasing her tail for many years to come...

I wish you the peace that you deserve...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W,

Everyone that knows my situation here has said the EXACT same thing you said. That her issues don't lie with me necessarily, they run much deeper within herself and were there in the first place. The longer this goes, the more I see the "hurt little girl" so to speak.

You know one day a few weeks ago, she sat and cried to me about how her mom could be so mean to her. Her mom is a "guilt mom". I witnessed this during our marriage. She would ask and expect things of my wife, if my wife didn't do it, her mom would lay MAJOR guilt trips on her.

My wife said she has done this to her all her life. Yet then, her mom can turn right around and just baby her to death.

Her parents divorce when she was in 2nd grade. He had an affair. They then got back together 4 years later and have been together ever since...but never remarried. Her mom STILL holds that pain towards him. You can sense it, they aren't happy together and there is no affection, etc. I'm not sure why they are together to be honest. It is obvious my wife's mom has never REALLY forgiven him.

NOW what do you think? I'm sure some of that explains the "foundation" my wife has.

She is still that hurt little girl and wants everyone to be happy. But the sad thing is...I don't think she is happy. That is why she resorts to the things she does.

My mom told me that once an alcoholic becomes an alcoholic, they get stuck in that time and never grow. For example, my own brother is 35 and has huge substance abuse problems. It started in high school.

Guess what? His level of responsibilty and the way he handles life is identical to a high schooler. That is where it started for him.

I think in many ways, the same rings true with my wife. Not to the extent of my brother, but similiar.

It is just sad. I do feel deep sadness for her despite what she has done to me.

Do you think my assumptions may be somewhat correct?

P.S. Now I just have such an emptiness in my life and it is the hardest and most vacant feeling in the world.

Yes Paul, I think that you are seeing things for what they are, unfortunately, you can see them as crystal clearly as possible and it won't matter one hill of beans until she does...And there is NOTHING that you can do to make her see, that is her albatross to bare...She'll have to hit her bottom...She'll have to "get" that she can change all the players but herself...You can never escape yourself, a "wherever you go, there you are" issue...Don't enable her, get out of her way and allow her to self destruct, sad and painful as it is, for most, that's what it takes...

Is she an alcoholic? If so, does she know that? Admitting and owning are two different things, btw...All the MB principles that you practice in the world won't heal this marriage unless and until she comes to terms with that and all her other issues...Only then could the really hard work of marital recovery begin...

Mrs. W

Google "borderline personality disorder" and see if some of that fits the bill as well...

Mrs. W