Thanks for the perspective, SS. And for reminding me that he is in fogland and unable to give me the answers I need.

I sent a short reply:

"What exactly are you saying?

Are you saying that you want to recover our marriage?

Or are you saying you want to spend some time with me in order to figure out if you want to recover our marriage?"

Hopefully, that will give me the information that I need.

I am putting my fear aside. I am clarifying my boundaries.

I am not commiting to anything at this point - even just spending time with him. If that is what he wants, I will have to consider if I am willing to do that.

LA, in answer to your question...I am not sure if his answers will matter, but I would like to have them.

Because they might matter.

I said that I knew I had done and said all I could. That was on my own. I felt like I had given it my all. Without him, I was unwilling to do anymore in order to recover the marriage. However, if he is at the point that he is willing to participate, I COULD do more. Does that make sense? Not sure if I expressed that right or not. Hopefully, you know what I mean.

Hi, Liz!

I love your last post and IT does make a whole lot of sense.

You inspire me to get to that point..where i feel like I have done all I can do and H needs to step in and work with me.

So, as I understand it...you don't want anymore sole work, if that's the case, you are better off by yourself; however, IF he is willing to work as a team...you will consider it!

You have a great big heart, Liz!

Thanks Rin.

Lots of wondeful help here. I keep up on a lot of threads and gain so much from the various posters. I have recently started following AmI's sitch - so many parallels even though we are in different situations. I get a lotfrom LA's postings to both you and AmI.

I'm glad I made sense in my post. I was worried I wasn't saying it right.

I do not feel any pressure anymore. If this is going to be fixed, it won't happen overnight.

At any rate, I am doing OK. Better than Ok actually. I am great.

Youngest son is playing modified soccer this year. First time he has commited to being on a team....and it's a lot of work. 2-3 hours of practice every day, 2-3 games a week. Hard work and sometimes he gets discouraged easily, but this time he is staying with it. i am so proud and have told him so. this is good for him - I see it. He takes charge out on the field - gets right in there and goes after the ball. He is unafraid. I see that spilling over into everyday life.

Realized all that yesterday, sitting in the sunshine, in the warm breeze, sharing stories with the other parents, cheering and groaning....we are all doing really well.

With or without WH, my family is intact, thriving these days instead of just surviving.

Love those away games. Long ride home with just me and my son...lots of time to talk and share.

My best and most important conversations with my children have always been in the car. We have tackled some very important subjects there. Wonder why that is? Maybe because we are in a safe little cocoon, just me and them - sometimes just 1, sometimes more, sometimes all of them (EEK!!!). Maybe it's the little bit of distance the car provides - not face to face,close yet it gives them a little feeling of space, helps to lessen the intensity.

I'm not really sure...maybe there's an actual reason for this.

But anyway, life is good these days. I am surrounded by people who love me, people that I love, and a full and busy life. I am truly blessed.

Thanks for being you Rin.

"My best and most important conversations with my children have always been in the car."

Well, well, well...The car...to me the best kept secret for great conversations with the kids...that's where me and the kids do our stuff b/c I've always got them, hauling them some where...good to know...you guys do the same thing...LOL

Now, I'll think about you when we talk in the car! LOL

H and I use to do the same thing after the kids went to sleep...like you said some really important stuff in the car...it's like being at our best, right there with no place to go...rational human beings, just talking...

I miss those days! Thank you, that's some great stuff to think about and for everything else!

You guys look like you are both doing well.
At least reasonably well. I enjoy reading your musings, it tells a lot about your state of mind. How much energy you have, what you can and can't do.

It looks like a much better place than just a few months ago.

Maybe the car works because he can't get up and go out to play while you are driving. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Liz,
I don't know how son feels about having WH attend games, but that would be a good start.

His willingness to attend, or not attend will tell you something too.

There is a family that needs to be restored, not just a marriage. WH has a long way to go, if he is serious, he needs to get started.

SS

SS,

I have not approached sons with any of this. Not until I know what WH's intent is. They don't need to be hurt by more of the same. If WH is serious and wants to start, then I will involve the boys. A counseling session would be in order at that point.

Slow and steady here.

From WH

" I do believe we can save our marriage. Yes I am still a bit skittish. Yes I would like to start slowly, with a bit of space allowed. But I also believe the gap between us can be closed quickly. I'm just asking that you be a bit patient with me. I know that I would like to be able to give my landlord my 30 day notice, and that when I move out of here it will be because I'm moving back home. Like I said before, I would like us to start working back toward each other. I'll see you at pool."

So, it's a definite maybe for sure.

(SS removes tongue from cheek)

Now, what do you want?

You can tell him to jump in the lake if you want.

Is this getting any easier, or just a different kind of hard?

SS

OMG!

Okay, Liz?

How are you? What are you feeling, thinking?

Are you okay?

Lizzie...first about the car and talking...

I have two symbols which the car represents...(like your cocoon)...one, we sit side by side (mostly this is DH now, but once, it was a son at a time)...which is together and equal...equal footing in a way....

And the second symbol is wherever we're going, even for a drive to see what we can see...we're going there together.

Side by side...thought to thought...lots of sharing...but then, I usually come at my truth from the side...so that may just be me.


Now...as to your WH's email...I suggest listen and repeat...verify you understand he feels skittish...fears...that you heard him say he believes your marriage can be saved. Then ask your clarifying questions...before moving back in, you'd need him to...NC letter(s)? MC set up and going before he moves back in (like four sessions under your belts?)...20 hours of UA, spent in RC and having fun...no R talk? Clean slates both ways as far as chosen perspectives (which is seeing him as new each day, and yourself...same for him)? Doing communication exercises twice a week?

These are all recovery stuff...not conditions of surrender...ways to save the marriage and take it to thriving...with the understanding you will hear what he says and not believe it as YOUR truth...not measure his progress or chart his change; nor he, you. Sharing would be the word of the day...and saying it daily. Sharing your own stuff, doing your own personal recoveries...

Would that be what you meant by could do more? Or could it be you doing what you're doing longer?

How about a marital contract for three months? Written contract to state the boundaries, for a set time...renewable?

You are not who you were when this began, Lizzie...I believe you know that. Your fear is old...old you fearing...acknowledge newer you...present you...as you decide.

If you are in your highest honesty and feel your fear will not allow you to try, then decline and divorce. Thank him for his clarification, and just do the divorce yourself...no needing him along, 'k?

What got me through this with my own fear was knowing I could divorce at any time...and I had a lot of time...and knowing how much of myself I wanted to recover...how much of a do-over I wanted with who I was then versus was before then...which is still vastly different than now.

Only last weekend did I find out what my WH feared most...he had stated at the time of going to MC to decide if he wanted to work on the marriage, continue his affair or end both and be by himself...was that coming back to work on the marriage meant me judging his progress, being measured and labeled...found wanting. That was his perpetual perception in the marriage...and at the time, he believed it was all coming from me.

Well, last weekend, as we talked in our new way (which is old now after a year and a half)...he said how in his mind, he is constantly judging himself...measuring and finding himself lacking.

My jaw dropped. Simple projection. YET...because I worked hard on sharing, not judging...not measuring...he got to hear the voice inside his head, his own, not mine, and now knew the difference.

WHOA.

I felt relief, joy and real compassion...highest empathy and I hugged him and kissed him, laughing from the relief...because I have that same voice in my own head...very connecting...takes time...patience...knowing he can hear what I'm not saying and vice versa...listen and repeat...eliminating DJs (prejudgment) saved our marriage.

I share this because his fear is real...doesn't mean it's coming from you...the you which you are now...or ever were...being alert to respect, knowing this separateness, is key to not holding all he says against him, measuring you by his own words...for they may well be about himself...let them stay over there in him...he can get there...to where he sees his own projection and it becomes a tool for his own growth...

Thinking of you,

LA

Morning all. Saw WH for a brief time last night. I told him that I would need us to have a session with Steve before I could consider moving forward with a recovery. WH still reluctant to do that. Again feels like I am trying to force him into counseling. Red flag for me.

I told him I didn't want to force him to do anything, I was just telling him what I need in order to move forward. Can't change his perspective.

He said more than once that I am doing so well now, maybe he should just leave me alone. I did some listening and repeating, but mostly I was focused on keeping myself in that good spot I am in emotionally.

Got home last night and he had sent this email -
"Whatever comes of tonight I want you to know that I really enjoyed seeing you. I definitely had a lot higher hopes for the outcome. I guess I was hoping for the happy reunion where I tell you I love you, you tell me you love me, we kiss and hug a little, laugh and cry a little, and then we just start moving forward. I've told you several times that I am a bit scared by your strong personality. You told me on your back porch that day that you understood that and were working on it, but there it was front and center tonight. I'm telling you I love you. I'm telling you that I choose you. I'm telling you that I would like to come home very soon. I'm telling you that I want to be with you. I'm telling you I believe we can have our marriage back. For those reasons and more I will have to consider counseling. I do, however, wish you could relax a bit on that issue. I am not afraid of making our marriage work. But, and you know this, I am afraid of counseling.

Let me know about Saturday. It's supposed to be nice, so I'm probably going to take the bike for a ride at some point. So if you want to go to Octoberfest we'll have to set up a time."

LA, your post couldn't have come at a better time. I see his fear. It's his, and it doesn't change anything for me.

I like the idea of a contract and the part about recovery vs. surrendering. I'm probably gonna use that!

Still doing OK here, hip deep in the process.

I told him I didn't want to force him to do anything, I was just telling him what I need in order to move forward. Can't change his perspective.

Good - stating your boundaries.


He said more than once that I am doing so well now, maybe he should just leave me alone. I did some listening and repeating, but mostly I was focused on keeping myself in that good spot I am in emotionally.

It's true what said - he should try only if he is committed to do whatever it takes. If he isn't, then you don't have much. It is probably his doubts coming out. "Can I really do this?"
I consider this as a form of honesty from him, and it is probably good that he doubts AT THIS POINT IN TIME. His performance has been terrible, he should doubt himself.

I'm telling you I love you.
I'm telling you that I choose you.
I'm telling you that I would like to come home very soon. I'm telling you that I want to be with you.
I'm telling you I believe we can have our marriage back.
For those reasons and more I will have to consider counseling.

"You told me some of those things before, and of course, you know what happened. If we can't figure out why it happened, and what to do to prevent it from ever happening again, then I would be in fear it could happen again at any time. I don't want counseling to be mean to you, I want it so I can trust being with you again."

I do, however, wish you could relax a bit on that issue. I am not afraid of making our marriage work. But, and you know this, I am afraid of counseling.

"As I said, I need to know what happened, and how to fix it. That's what I want from cousneling. If I am going to be with you, I need to be able to trust you. How can I do that if we can't figure out why this happened? I think both of us need to know it can be prevented in the future. I don't want to use counseling to beat you up. It doesn't need to be that way. You are a pretty good man in so many ways. Lets figure this out so we can make a good life together."

"PS - if by strong personality you mean I will do anything to prevent this from hapenig again ...... Dam right! "

Had WH over for dinner so I could reiterate what was said last night. Last night was kind of rushed and not at all private. SS, I read your post right before he got here and it helped me tremendously. More "proof" that God puts people in your life for a reason. Thank you for being part of mine (everyone else here too).

I did a much better job with listen and repeat, reinforced my boundaries. I told him that after tonight I can go no further unless he agrees to do whatever it takes and that most definitely includes counseling. I said a lot of what LA said about needing a plan and a contract.

I told him to take his time and consider this carefully, there is no rush, but unless he is enthusiastic about this, it will not work. I told him that he knew what my choice was, the other half of the decision rests with him.

I also told him if he feels forced, he shouldn"t do it. I told him I would only accept 100% commitment - non-negotiable. All this is a very calm and loving manner - and drumroll here - I FELT calm and loving.

I could tell he was floored. Last time I allowed him to plow right through each one of my boundaries. He kept saying - "you're different, I'm a little scared."

Wasn't sure how to answer but I said, "I am different. Thanks for noticing. It will take both of us acting in new ways and being different in order to make this work. The old stuff certainly didn't work and I'm not willing to go there again."

So, all in all, a successful night because I feel successful....and calm...and confident...and just as proud as can be of myself. Tonight...I feel like I finally get this.

Sooooo glad it seems to be working a little better.

Did you discuss what comes next?

I told him to take his time and consider this carefully, there is no rush.....

I agree, as long as he lets you know in a reasonable amount of time........ lets say yesterday, or the day before. I could live with that.

You really do sound good. Personal experience says the bad always tries to sneak in and ruin it for us. Be careful, be patient, and watch out for doubt when you get tired.

SS

((((((Lizzie)))))

I am so bless to know you! Really I am! I am just learning about boundaries and when I see you standing so strong it gives me hope and strenght.

:::holding my glass up:::CHEERS, my hat's off to you!

Lizzie,

Add my hands clapping to the applause...I share your delight in you realizing you WERE calm and loving...and being thrilled.

Awesome.

You reminded me of something I said back in the day...when WH would say, "I'm scared of all the pain we can inflict on each other." I said, "I hear that. I am terrified, too." And left it there.

Acknowledging his fears and acknowledging your own. How does that sound to you? No refuting..."I'm afraid of counseling, too. I fear failing to learn how to have a great marriage more, though."

In my prayers...you know God's there...in your corner...no rush, no pressure...one day at a time...all the way through...right?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

I spent some time today reading through my old threads and this one.

Even though I feel like I am no longer the person that I was when this started, I find it amazing to be able to actually SEE that.

All those letters I wrote to WH trying to convince him....something I would not do now.

LA, your comment about him shouldering half the decision about whether or not this marriage recovers was very freeing. I know these things, but to hear it, to have the validation and support, is priceless. New attitudes and new behaviors for me...with enough practice, they will become automatic.

I have been feeling really good for a while and I thought that even considering a recovery with WH would put me into a tailspin. I was afraid of being sucked back in. Instead, I have found that really knowing who I am, and NOT acting from fear (thank you all for the help with that), has allowed me to look at the possibility and know what it would take for me to go there.

WH asked me to go to a festival with him on Saturday. I told him that I would love to go, would love to have that be the start of our recovery, but only is he says those 6 words to me - "I will do whatever it takes" - and we schedule an appt. with Steve.

However it turns out, I will be fine...finally, after all this time, I know I'll be fine. I am already in my own personal recovery. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So I got this email today -

"Hi,

Is there anyway we can try this without counseling? I do love you and I would like to work it out, but honestly when I think about counseling I think I might rather slit my wrists than go to counseling. Don't get me wrong, I have not yet ruled it out. I'm not exactly sure why, but I am really freaked out about it. It has my stomach in knots thinking about it. You say that you are not forcing me into it, that it is a choice. I don't see it that way. My choice is you, but you are telling me that in order to have you I have to go to counseling. As far as I can tell, that would be forcing me to go. What happens if I do agree and it proves to be more than I can handle? What do we do then? What happens if we try it and you don't like what you hear? Then what do we do? Like I said, this is really freaking me out. Please reconsider.

I Love You."

So my reply -

"WH,
I hear that you are scared. I get it. I am scared too...but, I am more scared of screwing this up again, scared of not being able to make our marriage work.
I just know that I cannot go any further without counseling. This whole past year has been hard for both of us. I am only here at this point because of counseling.

Like I said last night, you can look at this however you choose to. I don't want you to do this if you feel forced. That won't work either. Whether or not this marriage continues or ends is our decision equally. I can only choose to continue in it if I know that we have support, and a place to figure out how your affair happened and how to prevent it from happening again....for either of us.

And I don't want another heartbreaking episode like in April.

So, here I am, one half of our marriage telling you that I am willing to take a risk, but I need to have some things in place in order to take that risk. It would be foolish of me to jump in blindly, without any safety nets in place, and it would be unfair to both of us. I don't believe I could do a good job without counseling, so I am not willing to try without it.

I'm not asking for a surrender here. I am asking you to stand beside me - two equals fighting together to make a new and better marriage. I am asking for us to make an agreement. If it makes you feel better to break it up into small pieces, we can do that. Maybe Steve will have an even better plan. I will agree to 3 months of reconciliation and 4 counseling sessions with Steve Harley during those three months. Of course those 3 months includes complete honesty and no contact with you know who. After that we can renegotiate. Please feel free to tell me what it is you need.

This is how this works - compromise and care for each other, and a safe place and a safe way to put the past behind us. Pretending like it didn't happen definitely will not work. That is for your benefit as much as mine. I don't want it to hurt us anymore than it already has. I told you before that I don't want to beat you up with it - I want us to learn from it.

My choice is you, but you are telling me that in order to have you I have to go to counseling. As far as I can tell, that would be forcing me to go.


WARNING!!!! ANALOGY AHEAD-

Liz is standing in the store window. She has a price tag on her that says "Counseling required". It is up to you whether you buy her or not, because there are certainly others who don't have that price tag on them. No one can force you. Only you know if she is worth it or not. Only you know how much you want her. Your decision.

What happens if we try it and you don't like what you hear? Then what do we do?


I agree to do this for 3 months and 4 counseling sessions - NO MATTER WHAT. That's my commitment. I am sure I won't like what I hear, but WITH COUNSELING, I am sure we can get through it. That's the beauty of this thing - agreement and commitment so that you know I'll be there even when it's hard, even when it hurts (because we both know that it will). I deserve that very same thing from you.

That's the very best that I can offer you. I am saying that I will do all that I can to help us recover our marriage. I want you enough to not settle for less than our very best chance. I want us to make it this time. If you want me that much too, then we have a really great start.

I love you too. Please don't slit your wrists."

So much for me being proud of myself for not being so wordy LOL!!! I feel good about my response. How do you think I did?

Liz,
You should put this in your sig line! YOU are amazing!

I see this letter being helpful to others! That is beautiful!

LOL...I can't wait to hear what SS has to say, along with LA!

I think you worded it well!

Looks like we are going to try to recover our marriage. WH agreed to the counseling with Steve Harley along with the other conditions - NC, UA, RC, etc...

We spent the weekend away and just returned. We decided to table all R talk until we have our first appt. with Steve and get a plan together. Until then we are following the 4 rules to guide recovery.

WH is going to start preparing to move out of his apartment. Besides spending time together, we talked about the logisitics of getting back together - finances and what to do with his "stuff" at the apartment, phones, etc...

He offered me access to evrything - I didn't have to ask. I thought that was a good thing so I told him "WH, that makes me feel respected and loved. Thank you for thinking about my feelings."

It all feels strange. My love bank is still pretty empty. I was one phone call away from filing for D. I had packed up all the rest of his things that were here, I had the tattoo of his name covered over 2 weeks ago (yes, I know that's a shocker, I am really not the tattoo "type" but I had our names tattooed on my lower back a few years ago along with a nice design - MY midlife crisis, I guess), told my family and his family that I had decided to D. I was almost gone.

Now I'm here, very cautious and with very strong boundaries.

I would have bet money that this was over.

When he was first gone, I used to pray to God to bring him back home. For the past 2 months I prayed for God to do what he wanted to in my life and give me the strength to get through it. I also started praying for WH when SS told me he was because he thought WH needed it more than me.

The power of prayer...that's what I think this was. That and MB.

Amazing.