instead of a shrink

go see a dance instructor !!!!

dance therapy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

email him ... I've made an appointment with (name) for therapy ... (hee hee)

Pep

Mulan,

Going from bad to worse.

Now do not get mad at me but maybe you do need to talk to someone. This dynamic is not healthy for you.

Maybe go find someone that can help you change your part in the dynamic. Might be a shrink, dance instructor, priest or attorney.

You can only change yourself and own your part in the dynamic.

"Dear WH - I've made an appointment for therapy, just as you said I should. It's with Errol Flynn. Turner Classic Movies is showing *The Sea Hawk* today and I've never seen it. I intend to get the very most out of this intensive two-hour therapy session. And if that's not enough, there's always Patrick Swayze and *Dirty Dancing*. I've been told that that dance therapy is very good for abandoned, lonely women."

Of course, no emailing is allowed so I will not really send anything. Great idea, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
thanks
Mulan

What would be the point? You DONT want to go to reunion, right? Sounds like it'd be miserable, I'd certainly not want to go.

No point on answering him just to let him dress you down, again. RESIST! And go have some fun while he's gone. Practice how you'd live if you were D'd (minus the dating)... How would you fill your day?

Read up on 180, start having a fun life! Find a class to take, Dancing, like Pep suggested... painting, cooking... take a weekend trip with a girlfriend? Look for a lawyer and an apartment? New hair style? Get your naval pierced?

RESIST! And do something to make yourself smile <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> - Dru

HL, I know what you are saying and I understand. And you are right - it certainly is not healthy for anyone to be part of such a dynamic and I'm well aware that any counselor worth a damn would ask me right off the bat: "Why do you stay?"

And I could only tell them the same thing I tell everyone at MB: Becasue of my son.

You gotta understand, though - WH only wants me to go to a "shrink" so that the "shrink" can tell WH that Mulan has a chemical imbalance, or is clinically depressed, or is bipolar, or has unresolved childhood issues.

WH wants some "shrink" or counselor to say that my emotional breakdown has NOTHING to do with his actions but is just a coincidental problem that I have.

He also wants them to put me on some kind of medication to "cure" me and keep me quiet and make me happy to be an employee and part-time girlfriend instead of a wife.

I offered to go to anyone WH wanted me to see if he would do two things:

1) Make the appointment himself with the person HE thinks I should see.
2) Go with me so he will hear everything that is said.

He refuses to do this. He wants me to go alone and get "help". He now blames me even more for "refusing to get help."

Did I mention that there is an Errol Flynn movie on TV today? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

Mulan,

I completely understand what you are saying. My FWW was/is the same way.

I was the problem. I needed to see someone.

She actually told me I had anger issues and I need help.

Now this is the person who: pushed a neighbor and had the cops show up at our house, engaged in a fistfight with my Aunt because my Aunt refused to watch our kids when my FWW was going out with OM, and pushed, hit and choked me and was charged with domestic abuse.

I finally told her I don't have anger issues. I get angry at certain issues big difference. You lying to me is an issue that makes me angry.

"He refuses to do this. He wants me to go alone and get "help". He now blames me even more for "refusing to get help."

I resemble that statement.

Finally I told you that I finally have progressed my enforcement. I now have no problem walking out of the door no matter what the consequences.

Before I wouldn't. In other words I will not stop right before D I will progress to a D.

Now I understand the kid thing I have two of them but you know what. What am I teaching them if she doesn't treat me right? What am I teaching them if she doesn't respect me?

You know if he is the big boss you are entitled to half of everything, unless you signed a prenup.

He can't kick you out or withold money.

Go see an attorney and find out what you are entitled to. It may make you more powerful in your dealings with him.

It sounds to me like there are more reasons that this.

Mulan,
Thanks for starting such a great thread. I'm seeing my relationship dynamic all over the place here.

When we met, I was the powerbroker and H was a lowly graduate student. After 13 years, and 2 kids, our roles have reversed. HE is the boss, and I'm the underling.

Just last night we had a "date" and he tried to make it seem like he was trying to POJA. Each time I disagreed, he just dismissed me and said he was doing it HIS way.

I can't wait to post more, but I need some time and solitude to collect my thoughts. Let me just say it is amazing there are so many women here that have experienced the same fate because of an imbalance of power in the M.

***Just last night we had a "date" and he tried to make it seem like he was trying to POJA. Each time I disagreed, he just dismissed me and said he was doing it HIS way.***

Exactly. As I mentioned on another thread, sure, my WH actually has agreed to POJA - as long as HE gets to decide what we will POJA and what we won't.

Can I nominate that statement for the WS Hall of Shame?

It would really be hilarious if it weren't so jaw-droppingly arrogant and selfish.

imanotherone, I look forward to your post. I am actually caught by surprise at the number of people who see themselves in this Boss/Employee marriage situation.
Mulan

There is a story that Queen Victoria, who really did love her husband Albert, once ordered him out of her office because she thought he was interfering somehow with her authority.

He left in silence and went to their bedroom and locked himself in. But the Queen was mightily annoyed and followed him, and knocked loudly on the door.

"Who is it?" Albert said.

"Don't be silly!" Victoria shouted. "It's the Queen!"

Silence.

Victoria knocks loudly again.

"Who is it?" Albert said.

"Open this door! It's the Queen!"

Silence again.

Finally Victoria knocks gently on the door.

"Who is it?"

"It's your wife."

Albert opened the door and let her in, and no such incident ever happened between them again.

Even kings and queens end up learning that they cannot be the Boss and Underling to each other. To others, perhaps, but never to each other.

I sure wish I had realized what was going on, the way Albert clearly did, and had done the same kind of thing he did before it was too late. He did exactly the right thing. By all accounts Victoria and Albert had a very close and loving marriage up until he died much too early, and she mourned him for the rest of her life.

Mulan

Hi Mulan,

I remember posting to you long ago about this. I'm a Big Boss, and I've seen this more than a few times with my coworkers and Big Boss clients. I see these men belittling their wives and wonder why the W's dont take them to the cleaners and find someone who is nice to them. I always assume the W's are in it for the $$$ and have OP's of their own. You are proof that's not the case.

And it's probably worse than you think... you know you dont have the full story. I cant believe how often I hear about prostitutes being involved with these big deals. Yuck and double yuck. I'm trying to get OUT of this business, I can see my Golden Parachute in the distance. I've grown to detest big corporate business and decided I had to get out. It's very depressing - IF you are not one of the BB's taking advantage of it all...

If he's not willing to negotiate it doesnt leave you much room.

DO NOT EMAIL HIM... Just a friendly reminder! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Please take care and do something FUN for yourself - Dru

YOu know, it's funny how we post to each other without really knowing the magnitude of the muck and mire we are each stuck in. I truly had no idea what you go through on a daily basis.

You've really hit the nail on the head with this series of posts. My WH grew up dirt poor. 3rd of 7 kids. Went to bed hungry many nights. Hand-me-down clothes and garbage pile cast-offs. Fast forward 40 years and he is the successful one. Not successful by many standards but makes a comfortable living, owns own business, etc.

He has always had to have the big trucks, the Harley motorcycle, had a cell phone early on, etc. Perception is everything. For him, it's all about people being able to SEE that he made something of himself. Now, he could have $300, 000 in the bank and drive a Ford Ranger but people wouldn't be able to SEE the success; you don't go around sharing your check register with everyone.

He likes to portray himself as a big shot. He wants people to think he has money. He's a real charmer and acts very humble but is really quite arrogant. I've been told that he has kept me around (separated 2 years and he's had multiple affairs during that time) for the $ I make which is twice what he makes and the med insurance.

Once, when asked by someone why he didn't divorce me and move on his answer was "It ain't costing me anything".

He has also told me that I "need help". I need to find a counselor because I've got some real problems. I agree b/c I am still married to him and still putting up w/his crap!!!!

He also isn't very tall; average height of 5 ft 8 in. He has that "little man" or Napolean syndrome I think. He's quite cocky.

Oh Mulan,

My ex was exactly the same...same words, same actions,same transference of guilt, same trying to make me the one who needs help.

Now he is expanding his reportoire to include the kids and their reactions to his behavior and his bimbo's behavior. He uses the same amo with them.

I agree that this type of person feels entitled...and we are all in this world to worship the ground they walk on. Pretty amazing.

I am sad that you have had to live like this also. At least it does feel good to know that others have gone through what I have lived through. Doesn't make me feel as "Stupid" for putting up with it for 22 (26) years.

I was his ornament, his military wife, his mother of his children. In his case, I think his mom and dad taught him that he was (and is the most important thing in the world...and by God, the sexiest too according to his mother).

He has found a new "soulmate" to worship him...and she doesn't realize that she is falling into the same trap...oh well....I have to admit I don't feel sorry about that....in fact, I am finally at the point that I am enjoying the show.

Take care...and my prayers for a much better future for you and all of us. Pat

Hi, movinon - I do remember you from a few years ago. I hope things are better for you now. They do sound like it.

For all y'all who are reading here - if you haven't already, you might want to check out the Passive/Aggressive thread on the In Recovery Board. It seems to have a lot in common with this one.

thanks to everyone for the responses -
Mulan

Thanks...I am doing much better. Still miss my family...but in reality...I have my family...my four kids. The rest is not as important any more.

I am still teaching, in fact tomorrow is my last day of summer school...yeah.

I am also getting my masters and the ususal hectic schedule of kids...but that I wouldn't trade for anything. He is missing out on so much...things he will never be able to replace...but, oh well.

I don't wake up any more thinking about them every second of the day...in fact some days, I don't think of him at all anymore. Other days, I still reel from the pain--but those days are coming less and less often.

I had a great epiphany 2 weeks ago...I QUIT getting drawn into their outrageous emails...I read them, copy them...and delete them....and I haven't answered one!!! That is progress!!!!

Anyway, I had better head to bed...one more day before summer vacation....Can't wait....Take care, Pat

Mulan, I agree it is amazing how many of us find ourselves in this situation. Seems each R takes it's own path, but we all seem to reach this end result.

I'll probably break my story into several posts, just to keep people from getting too bored.

First, when H and I met, 20 years ago, I was the strong-willed, popular one. When we both got our Master's degrees, I chose to take a high-paying job in California and he chose to stay in Florida to get his Ph.D. I was making a ton of money, but I spent a lot of it flying him out to visit, or flying me back to Florida. I also paid all the phone bills and financed the vacations.

I eventually moved back to Florida for the sake of the relationship, and took a pay cut. Still, I was pretty driven, and managed to double my salary in less than 5 years. H took a job working for the university, which paid ok, but really didn't have much clout. We got married after dating for almost 7 years.

We decided that I would quit my high-paying job when I got pregnant. We also moved to another part of Florida, and started our own consulting company. Because my H was the Ph.D., I spent considerable time "boosting" his image. I would gush about his talents, etc.

Funny thing, when I was pregnant only 3 months, I remember a conversation H had with a friend, and they talked for hours about his work and other stuff, but almost no mention of me. At the end, he said, "Yeah, ima's still pregnant." Back in the old days, he would talk about my latest trip or some promotion I got. Once I left that job, and started putting the power in his role, I started slowly losing his respect and admiration.

I don't think my H used to value respect and admiration as his EN's. But once he started being the primary breadwinner, I think it went to his head. At the time, none of this was obvious to me. I just gave up little bits of power, so little each time that I didn't really notice how much I had given up.

Fast forward to today, where H just makes unilateral decisions about money and household choices and business and doesn't consult me, and often doesn't even inform me at all.

About 2 and a half years ago, I made some conscious decisions that really sent things downhill. I'll go into that in my next post.

About 2 and a half years ago, we had a huge product roll-out planned for a trade show. About six months before that, we did a little inventory of our time, and realized there weren't nearly enough hours in the days for us to get this project finished.

Our marriage was already rocky, and we had been in counseling for over a year. We told the counselor that we were in for some really rough times ahead with this project, so things were going to be even more stressful than they already were.

I decided to make a concession to not ask anything of my H during that time, essentially giving him permission to ignore my EN's (didn't call them that at the time.). I also didn't call him on it when he was rude or disrespectful to me, even in front of friends or colleagues. I said to myself, "If we can just get through the next 6 months without a meltdown, I'll be sure to jump down his throat if he does it after we're done."

I even allowed him to insult me, and I even used self-deprecating humor to diffuse tension caused when H was rude to our workers. I even told him once, "you can be rude to me all you want, but if you treat our workers that way, they're gonna quit, so cut it out!"

Funny, huh? Basically, I gave him permission to treat me poorly, and even encouraged it to take the weight off other people in our life. This went on for about 6 months.

Guess what I wasn't thinking about? When someone does something for 6 months, IT BECOMES A HABIT. (We're always told, if you can keep up something, like working out or eating right, for six months, you've probably got that habit for good.) Well, H really got the habit of sh!tting on me.

So, when the project was completed, I naturally expected him to just end all the gruff behavior and become more sensitive, etc. I was stunned when it didn't turn around on me. I started asking for better treatment, but by then, H had lost all respect for me, and just called me a crazy nag.

I started to believe him, and I backed off. I came to expect being treated badly, and I became a mean nag about all kinds of things.

H started doing a lot of travelling for work, and started adding days on his trips, "for alone time." Since he was such an [censored] when he was home, I welcomed his absence. Didn't take long before he met some little young thing at one of his work functions, and started his A.

Now I'm in a really bad situation, since H still doesn't respect me or believe in POJA. His A is ended, but the wreckage of our marriage is everywhere. Neither of us has filed anything yet, but I really don't see any hope at this point. I keep reading on MB, because I keep hoping a magical solution will drop out of the sky.

Well, Ima - you and I do seem to have a lot in common. Both WHs feel free to treat us like employees and are angered and threatened at the idea of having to treat us like equals.

And like any other Boss with an insubordinate employee, they feel free to ignore and punish until the employee either 1) caves in and gets back in line, or 2) becomes so miserable that she finally quits.

You said you made a conscious choice not to stand up to him for a certain amount of time. Years ago, I made a conscious choice not to be demanding when he ignored me, being afraid I would be labeled a "b*tch" or a "nagging wifey" or a "ball-and-chain."

I think we've learned what massive mistakes we made. All we did was teach these men it was okay to treat us like employees and not like equal partners.

The only magic solution that might drop out of the sky is the one used here so often - Plan B.

Have you thought about it?
Mulan

This thread is overlapping very nicely with the one over on In Recovery about Passive/Aggressive WSs.

Something I have seen in the corporate workplace, and I have no doubt my WH (as a big-shot corporate manager) has used himself, is the tactics for dealing with a problem employee. You know, one who doesn't respect the boss's authority like they should.

In today's lawsuit-happy society, corporations are squeamish about firing people that they just don't like. So, instead of just firing someone outright, they use tried-and-true Passive/Aggressive tactics to deal with the problem.

First, they ignore that employee.

Second, they make veiled threats about demotions or job loss.

Third, they take steps to make that employee's life so miserable that the poor slob will finally just quit.

The most extreme form of Step Three is something called The Window Seat. The employee being punished is literally given a desk by a window and does receive a paycheck - but gets nothing else. He has no work. He is not invited to meetings. His colleagues will not speak to him. The message is clear - we don't want you and we don't need you. Please leave.

Anybody here feel like they've been given a Window Seat by their WS? I sure have. P/A tactics at their finest.
Mulan

Hi Mulan-
Very good observations. I think the window seat analogy is one many of us have seen in our M's. Personally, I'll just sit in my window office and enjoy my paycheck and view, and play solitaire or read MB on the computer.

Ah, that would be nice, but not at all reflective of my typical day at the "office." Too much dealing with kiddies, contractors, company issues, and the rest. But, I definitely ame getting the window seat treatment all the same.

Mulan, I have considered the Plan B, but have chosen not to for a couple of reasons:

First, it is exactly what my H wants. He doesn't want me around. I think he woudl love to start a whole new life, if I can just get out of his line of vision.

Second, our lives are very entangled, given the mutual business, family home, and small children. H would never leave the house, but would love it if I did (without the kids, of course).

Third, because of the business, I would rather go through divorce than just plan B, because there is a considerable liability in H's job, whereas mine is very safe. I don't like being an officer (uncompensated) in a corporation where I'm assuming risk without reward.

I know divorce is probably the best answer, but still dragging my feet. I've been reading a little bit about "the 180's" and am wondering if that might be something worth trying. Not even sure if it is recommended in my type of situation.

My relationship problem is somewhat rare on MB board. Basically, H has ended the A, but I'm still not willing to work on it too much, since I don't trust H. My FWH tried for a while to work on it, but really prefered the idea of his controlled separation book instead of HN/HN. He was able to "get away with more" IMO, with the controlled separation plan.

I really am at an impasse, but I keep trying to figure a way out of this rut, a way that does the least amount of damage to the children. I think this is an excellent thread, though, and I've learned a lot already.