I would say this reveals a complete lack of objectivity. Since you know you can't compete using facts, reason and logic, you resort to a very old, cheap, and tired, debate tactic: DISCREDITING your opponent by virtue of WHO he is. Saying WHO HE IS will not serve to disqualify the opinion. And the reason is clear, the facts won't support your silly point of view, which explains why your posts are dripping with ad hominem attacks.

Let's say that "every person" here is "damaged." It does not render their viewpoint meaningless, just the opposite usually because they are SURVIVORS..... and you are not. Only the substance of the viewpoint will serve to discredit every so-called "damaged person."

If anything, their past makes their viewpoint MORE RELEVANT because the folks here have something you don't:

a) hands on experience at successfully saving a marriage

b) familarity with the MB program

c) understanding of the dynamics of an affair

If you are going to seek advice on WEIGHT LOSS, who do you go to? Someone who has successfully lost weight or someone who has NEVER had a weight problem? If you are a drunk and want to sober up do you consult a successfully recovered alcoholic [AA] or someone who has never drank? Of course it is the former in both cases. So, please lets use some common sense here. You have no experience whatsoever in this arena. And it SHOWS.

I told you this would get fun..."Carmelthongs",<snicker>... now that's RICH & CHEWY

Query: Where does "My abuse of you will likely get worse" fit into the abusive behaviors list????

All opinions are NOT equal. Try being of the opinion that your American Flag needed burning in the parking lot of a Walmart in middle Texas that just so happens to be hosting a truck pull. Sure they'll honor your current freedom of speech rights, but you're still likely rightly get your butt handed to ya. You are on the MB site, convoluting, misdirecting, disavowing, disrespecting, miscontruing, etc, MB principles, posters, Betrayed Spouses and advice. Say it and take it. YOU just may learn some valuable lessons you can use in your marriage. You are no more unique, safe and less vulnerable than I was 2 years ago.

Also, your contention that everyone should attend a Marriage Builders conference prior to marriage is misguided. It won't soak in. We went to a Family Life Conference as newlyweds and re-read the materials again last summer in recovery..we knew this stuff but just didn't "get it". My wife and I should have gone to one when we both observed ourselves withdrawn and unhappy in the marriage. THEN we might have understood our predicament and vulnerability a little better.

BTW, how's your marriage???? Is there something we can help you with. Do you practice MB principles??? I'm not looking to use your personal background to "win" our little debate. I'm not trying to use your lack of experience against you, I want you to understand how fortunate you are, LEARN the concepts and apply them to your marriage so YOU avoid being here down the road either as a WW or a BW. Something is not right with your thinking and we are attempting to find the "root" of it. FOO issues??, suspect your husband???, you been in contact with an "old boyfriend"??, you got a "close guy friend", your husband is neglectful or abusive and you slept with the painter or neighbor or IT AIN'T NEVER GONNA HAPPEN TO ME SYNDROME???...WHAT IS IT?

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - some of us are, in fact, professionals and do have professional experience with some of these infidelity issues

wow, my fiancee and i came her to get support and help in trying to salvage what we know is broken...is this how people are routinely treated when they question what the mb "veterans" believe to be true?...i'm a bit disillusioned since i thought this was a place of caring and encouragement...

Um, as a newly betrayed fiance, it would seem that the wisdom of MB vets would be of a much greater value to you, than that of someone like CS, who admittedly has no experience with infidelity or MB, but, of course, the choice is yours...

Did you actually read the thread that is being refered to here? The one that CS was spewing her "wisdom" on? Did you see the effect that her venom had on the betrayed husband in that situation???

The folks here are simply defending the tried, tested and true MB principles that have worked in their very own lives...I say take it for whatever it's worth to you...And remember, the truth will always be the truth, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not...

Mrs. W<----shaking her head in disbelief...sigh...

Hi, Unsuspectinginla,

I'm sorry you're feeling disillusioned over what's going on here.

Please don't jump to conclusions...this originated from another thread where CS was zoning in on what she apparently perceives to be horrible abuse on the part of a betrayed spouse. She knows nothing about infidelity, as she's never experienced it; and, IMHO, she is basically browbeating the BS, who is dealing with knowing that his WW is cheating back home while he is serving in Iraq. THAT is what we are disagreeing with her about.

You can see for yourself by checking out this thread:

Sbmmal's Thread

As for the MB principles, well, most of the people who are posting to CS have used those principles to recover their marriages. And, this IS the Marriage Builders website, after all.

Someone who does not know or understand the principles and comes here to give really bad advice can harm new posters.
Dr. Harley has had enormous success in helping save marriages with the principles in this website.

But,anyway, please read the thread for yourself, and see where we're coming from.

I hope we can help you, as well!
LC

CS,

I read that you have some insight into interpersonal relationships for married partners that are facing the fallout of adultery.

Will you please help me?

I’ve been facing this pain for a year in the biggest struggle of my life and I could use all the help I can get.

Tell me how you beat adultery.

How did you keep from killing yourself when you found out about it?

I wanted to end my life. There has never been more at stake for me personally.

How did you break up the spouse that you loved and promised to God to love, protect, cherish, and honor for better or worse till death do you part with the interloping morally debased curr OP?

I’m desperate for ANYTHING that you can give me.

Can you tell me how your approach is proven historically please? I don’t want to waste time trying something that doesn’t have a good track record.

Before this happened to me, to us, I never knew that infidelity was so prevalent in our society. About 80 percent of M’s have been affected by it? 4 out of 5 marriages have this kind of pain in them?

I hope you are experienced because if I don’t get this right, I don’t want to live at all. My family is so important to me that I would die for each and every one of them. I just can’t understand this.

If you could just lay your system out on the table here for me to read I may give it a shot. Could you please talk about your credentials also? And I would like to have some faith in you so if you’ve been party to love triangle before, could you tell me about how you delivered your family and your marriage from the devil’s clutch back into the realm of goodness?

Some of the people here, well I’m not so sure they’ve even so much as split up a pair of mating dogs with a garden hose; let alone helped to advise betrayers or the betrayed on how to end adultery.

Please don't worry about the time of my post. I haven't slept much in the last year.

Thanks for your input,
Plank.

Now THIS is EXACTLY the problem that I've been having...LITERALLY...Is there anyone here that can help me with this??? Do you think that perhaps my hose is not sturdy enough? Should I run down to the local WalMart and pick up a new one? Should I have my dawg fixed? How much do you think that would cost? Try as I might, those dang dawgs just keep at it! Anyone? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well I saw how much controversy the "rutting around like pigs in bed" caused.

I'll just keep adding them all to my compartmentalized area of mental film clips. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Maybe you could put some tighty whities on your dog?

Hope you make some more plank calls over in the unmentionables department. That was very clever, sir, in spite of your unfortunate gender! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Orchid: Here's an interesting thought - Free country, freedom of speech..... u r right about the your rights. The question in discussions is how much of your right is it right to give to others? On the other hand, listening a bit may be enlightening. After all, we don't always know all, even if we have all our rights, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This applies to all of us CS. Just pointing it out. ok?


Orchid: Now I can tell you this......how I felt pre-A and how I felt during the A and now is all very different. Pre-A my H and I disucssed that if either one went wayward, that's it....no discussion.....M w/b over. Did we have that right? Yes, both legally, morally and scripturally. Did we have a choose to exercise that right or try to save our M? Yes we did. We could do either. Did going through the A change our POV? Yes it did.

My point is that pre-A and going through the A is 2 very different set of circumstances. There are some events in life that even if you think you know what you will do or you think you are prepared, you really are not. I had friends and family who dealt with infidelity and I felt very strongly about how this was NOT going to happen to me. I felt I was prepared. In reality, I was not 'fully' prepared. I was just as shocked at how much I fought for our M. I learned a the need to listen and learn was greater than my need to tell others what life was like B4 I went through it myself.

CS, not sure of your age......but from what I have read of your posts, you are a thinking person...... be wise..... pay attention a bit. Behind these simple posts to you is a lot of experience. You are NOT going to figure it all out quickly and because you have NOT been through this horrid experience yet..... it may take you a bit longer to catch on. That's ok....if you have a good attitude.

From all my years of posting here, I have only found a couple of people who post here who have NOT had A problems in their immediate family. Yet they post here and are of great help to others. Those 'precious' people have been life-savers to many of us here. They have the unique ability sympathize and emphatize in ways that makes their input valuable. Now that's a good skill to copy.

Hope this didn't push you out of shape. Just wanted to help you so you can learn wisely.

take care,
L.

CS... I find your posts to be nothing more than an attempt to discredit and lie. You worked in the medical field for ten years? Doing what... sweeping floors in a hospital? I mean you seem confused as to the use of the term "incubation" period because you used it in reference to when HIV would show up on a test (in fact the incubation period is about ten years... not five as you stated... but this refers to the symptoms of AIDS appearing and NOT when a person would test positive for HIV... this time period is measured in weeks and at the most 6 months). Your lack of intelligence in speaking about matters concerning infidelity is obvious. What brought you to look at a recovery site in the first place??? Not when... but what?

CS - You seem to make a lot of generalizations about the military. I am a military wife. I have been married to my Marine for 21 years. He is retiring this year.

So, I'm curious, which one of the three types of wives you described are you?

Also your statement about it being easier to get promoted if you are married is just untrue in my opinion. It is very easy for single men to get promoted as Officers. They do not need a trophy wife to help them. Promotion is earned, not given to the man with the best looking wife!

There are many military people on this board so why did you pick SB to post to and ONLY him? Really this does not make any sense. You come to an infidelity board, but claim your marriage is great and you would NEVER be with someone who cheated, so WHY are you on this board? And WHY are you only posting to one person? If you have so much to offer, why not share with a lot of people?

None of what you are saying makes sense to me. But then again I guess it doesn't have to!

Sir or ma'am, I would say yes.


As long as you don't contradict popular opinion, you will be "safe."

If you are interested in how this got started, click here: "http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3039752&an=0&page=1#Post3039752

If the hyperlink is not working, the thread is titled: [color:"blue"] Deployed Army Officer - God's for Us, Statistics Against Me
[/color]

It's a little long, but you may notice some of the things I did...

This is from SB's post-->

Post #3053383 - 07/10/06 02:03 AM



This is your interpretation of his statement:

Are you serious? Wow... I had to read that twice ...






You are on a roll now-LOL!







You say I bashed him, well-I disagree. I asked him the hard questions and it turns out that the answers to those questions indicate that they needed to be asked.

I think that this is what vexes you and the others so.

You and the others should also understand that you are not going to change my mind about this topic by bashing me.




What's the difference between "truly abusive" and "abusive"?



Abusers and their victims are also imperfect and human . Do you think otherwise?




I feel that his behavior fit perfectly with an abusive, controlling man: You see-abuse within the context of intimate relationships-is a choice, and abusers are capable of making their choices with remarkable calmness and deliberation. They choose their methods and those methods will vary according to the abuser and the situation, but are all the methods are aimed at one thing: control .

I believe that SB didn't stand for his loss of control. I think that he tried within the limits of his personality and situation to restore it. Perhaps SB is too intelligent to engage in the behaviors that your stereotypical view of a "truly abusive and controlling man" would.

My perception is that he hoped that he could maintain control of the situation even as he was clearly losing it. His wife waited until he was deployed-which made it easier for her and harder for him. He tried to get things back to "the way they were" & when he realized that this was no longer an option (the legal paperwork), he reacted with amazing speed and alacrity: calm, cool, and collected-no longer lamenting the "death" of his marriage / the destruction of his family, but moving to "letting go."

It is my opinion that someone who was still focused upon love for his spouse and saving his marriage / family would have probably not been able to react this way.

By the way-don't think that I don't notice how you are skipping over portions of my posts that you can't "argue" with-LOL!

CS, I have a new nickname for you! It is Mz Kettle! You continually accuse others of exactly what you are doing! Speaking of "skipping over portions of posts you can't argue with," you seem to have mastered that with your evasion of the evidence that YOU, Madam, are quite abusive! You appear to still be in denial about your own abuse issues. But as you told sbmml: "Often the most abusive women are the first to condemn other abusive men" A little pronoun shuffle and we have you dead to rights, don't we now? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You need to take the plank out of your own eye before you can help others. The truth will set you free! Let's not play Ms. Kettle, ok? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Let's look at your standards AGAIN and how you are actually the most abusive person on that thread:

Your posted standard-------->____ Criticism (name-calling, swearing, mocking, put-downs, ridicule, accusations, blaming, use of trivializing words or gestures)

1. I am about to ridicule you though: Based upon what you just posted, I can imagine you stomping your right foot with a pacifier in your mouth at this very moment.

2. Interesting...The Nazi's said the same thing.

3. Stated to LadyClueless: I find your screen name to be highly appropriate.


4. Your comment seems quite foolish in light of this fact.

5. Also, the invitation you extended to Believer to talk about me on the side -while comical in a grotesquly dysfuntional sort of way- only serve to show that my comments are striking the string of truth on the banjo of your conscience.

6. It is childish and illogical to try to conclude that something is "wrong" with me.......


7. (In fact, one of the cyberbullies used that word in his post...) My posts consist of my opinions .

8. is a clear sign that you have run short on cogent responses to back up your point of view.

9. spoken to AussiesWife: If you actually read and interpreted my words for yourself rather just being a bandwagoneer, you would find that I am in agreement with you on this main point:

10. It is just my opinion and I am entitled to it, and no amount of cyberbullying or bandwagoneering will make me change my mind.





Your posted standard-------->____ Claiming "the truth," being the authority, defining her behavior, using "logic"



1. Another item which sems to be forgotten here: The success of such a difficult undertaking hinges upon both parties being determined to dispel any illusions about what the real problems are. I see you (and others) as encouraging the continuation of fantasy rather than fact for SB, and this will not help him.

2. The sad and bad part of all of this is the one sided perspective being provided by many of the respondents here:


3. I honesty think you have received and are still receiving crappy advice here...Actually-you can't call co-signing and high fiving with a few disparaging remarks about your wife thrown in for good measure "advice."

4. Justuss, I am familiar with the concepts, and I have concluded that high fiving does not qualify as support.SB was blindsided because of all the "support" he received in this thread.

5. Truthfully, I am not sure that SB is actually ready to put the principles into practice. To be honest, he gave alot of lipservice to self-change; however, underneath it all I perceive a continuing focus upon his wife's wrongdoing and getting his "Wayward Wife" back to normal rather than a desire to seek out and address root causes. "Normal" for them seemed to include him controlling her and her simmering about it.





CinnamonSugar: It ain't pretty, is it? If we were having a contest, you would be the grand prize winner! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> This is a clear case of TRANSFERENCE, accusing others of what you DO! hello kettle!!

Don't go down the wrong path: The damage caused by emotional abuse often rivals the damage caused by physical abuse. To be blunt: There is no distinction. Abuse is abuse.

Bancroft says that often abusers attempt to minimize what they have done / are doing by comparing their actions to abuse that is allegedly worse.

Bancroft also reveals another surprising tidbit: Often the most abusive women are the first to condemn other abusive men. [ain't that the God's honest truth?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> This bancroft chick is one smart gal!]

I think that there is hope for you as long as you do not give in to the very real and natural urge to blame others(if even indirectly) for your choices. And as long as you do not entertain any illusions about what you did and why. Jes' remember, DENIAL ain't a river in Egypt! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

i refer you to this link: (visit www.lundybancroft.com)

I realize that you are participating in the bashing, and that your post is sarcastic but I will still reply.

Like all the other participants here, I do not have a "system" for reducing, controlling, or eliminating infidelity.

Even the so-called experts have to admit that their "system" may not work for everyone.


But I do have a personal philosiphy about life, as well as some observations about love, dating and marriage:

-You must love yourself first. All love stems from this. If you don't love yourself, you will be incapable of loving anyone else. (I think 100% of the so-called experts agree on this point.)

-The quality of your love life will be a direct reflection of your selection criteria. Dating is supposed to be fun-but make no mistake- dating is a screening process. The single best way to prevent yourself from marrying and procreating with someone who is unfaithful, abusive, narcissistic, etc is to rule them out during the dating process. Some people are good actors, but often in our effort to find "the one" we choose to ignore the warning signs during this critical point in the process.

-The quality of your love life is affected by the work you put into it.


-If your spouse no longer wants to be with you, sometimes it is best to let them go. You will be unhappy for a time, but life can and will go on.


There are many books about how to "affair proof" your marriage, but even those authors admit that sometimes adultury cannot be "beaten" because you may not be able to "affair proof" your spouse. There are some people who will cheat on their significant others regardless of the circumstances.

In the past, women were living with male infidelity on the regular because we as a society felt that it was normal and expected that boyfriends and husbands would cheat. Some even viewed it as part of being "a man." Since women had few economic options at that point in time, they simply sucked it up. Sometimes, it resulted in divorce but most of the time it did not because divorce was a dirty word at that period in time.

Fast forward to today where people are less focused on the collective and more focused upon the individual, and people have a problem understanding the concept of delayed gratification and self[color:"blue"]less[/color]ness...Combine that with women having more economic options (not having to tolerate an unfulfilling marriage) and both genders feeling that it's easy and acceptable to simply bail out on marriage & we have a social recipe for disaster in the form of the normalization of infidelity, divorce, single parenthood... among other things.

The sad truth is that many of us are products of the social arrangements of the past (and present) and we are not well-equipped to have loving and mutually fulfilling relationships.

As far as feelings of suicide because of an impending break up-I would say that professional help is needed. You should not want to off yourself because another person does not want to be with you anymore.

[color:"red"] Again, what I have stated here = my personal observations / philosophy [/color]

My life / marriage isn't perfect-no one's is-but I tried my best to use the dating process as a screening tool. I read as much as I can about love and marriage from the "experts"-taking some things with me and leaving some things behind. I also like to listen to the stories of people who have been married for a long time, as well as the stories of those who have lost at love.

One challenge in my marriage is being marrried to someone of a different ethnic group. Another is the military deployments which come up from time to time.

Sorry Melody-I am not really reading your posts very closely anymore. I explained why a few posts ago.

Coming up with new "names" for me and the like simply leads me to reinforce that behavior.

When the tone of your posts chaneg, perhaps my behavior towards them will change as well.

CS,


You know, CS, these two statements of yours about Sbmmal's reaction seem very contradictory to the way a truly abusive husband would react. IMO, you have it backwards.

Think about it.

I completely agree with your comments about pre affair and post affair feelings. No one can predict what they would do when faced with such a situation. However, I do not believe I participated in this particular aspect of the conversation.

I have paid quite a bit of attention and I hope that you are not suggectsing that I have not been simply because I do not agree with certain statements made by certain individuals. To be blunt: Telling me to "listen" or the suggestion that I am not listening because I do not concur with what I have heard is a sign of groupthink: "You must not be paying attention because if you were, you would agree with my point of view."

Everyone has problems. Our perception of those problems, as well as our reactions can be different though.