I think the honeymoon is over and we are slipping back into some old patterns.

It really scared me to see his angry response to me (about bringing up THE ISSUE the other morning..the issue that he asked me to speak with him about). I thought his anger was unreasonable and uncalled for....He used to do this in the past...even before the affair. I used to label it as "being mean".

He riled up again a bit last night and I told him that it "scared" me...

Actually, it has angered me..not sure what to do about this anger that is "surfacing" towards him.

I'm thinking: "How dare him to treat me this way given all that he has done to me"....so for some reason, this is bringing up stuff that I had laid to rest..

You see..a slump...

My H seems mostly oblivious to these feelings that I am having inside....and is wondering what is wrong with me..

He is sensitive and bothered by my coolness but I don't know what to do about my feelings...

His anger represents something to you, just as yours does to him. Could be two different things.

Knowing your own feelings, Mimi...well, that's your responsibility. You said you felt scared...which often is the first feeling before anger jumps in...you might have felt both...one quickly replaced by the other.

I see justifications...he was the one who said to talk to him about the issue...treating you that way after all he's done to you...these are fear justifications...is there a voice in your head that says you shouldn't be feeling fear or anger? Only reason to justify is if you believe what you're feeling isn't allowed.

And you feel, anyway.

Are you not acknowledging his anger...so you're justifying your own?

Feeling "old patterns" is normal for recovery...seeing them for what they are as soon as possible and then choosing to react from your knew knowledge (which can feel older than new given your timeline) isn't going backwards...it is finding you have the expectation that they honeymoon is the marriage...you are safe; got it right. The old issues can remain because they go back way before the marriage...

Would you consider you believe he is oblivious to your feelings because you are not expressing all of them, stating them as your own...outloud? Which would trigger feeling wrong inside...when nothing is wrong in you, Mimi...you had unreasonable expectations and this is how you can see them, clearly?

You choose your expectations...not your feelings...but feelings come from them...they are beliefs...and so your feelings are information...there for your knowledge, within your control. Know them...state them...they are yours.

By doing this consciously, you will fear his anger less...you will truly begin to believe his feelings are his...coming from his expectations/beliefs...which are his...so you can acknowledge what he feels without fear...because you own only what is yours.

You are acting from fear by withdrawing (coolness). Hold the fear and act loving anyway. This reassures your own Self that Self isn't wrong or bad or irrational...nor is Self being attacked...

No more DJ's from fear, 'k? You are a goddess who comes from love...you fear and know it for what it is...old stuff...not present...act from love of self, anyway.

LA

Loving..thanks for your response..just as I was coming in to try to process my lightbulb moment..

You say:



This is OUR DANCE as I see it:

We are facing a MAJOR CONFLICTUAL situation...for the first time since recovery..Major is defined as we DISAGREE with each other strongly.

Throughout our relationship, "coming to the table"..POJAing..has been difficult for us...Because I am FEARFUL of ANGER EXPRESSION BY OTHERS(childhood issues)..and also because of the childhood issues, I did not learn to express anger appropriately MYSELF...FIGHT or FLIGHT when it comes to ANGER..

THE LIGHTBULB MOMENT..is that my H is the same way...

Present day: I no longer am uncomfortable with "COMING TO THE TABLE"..I want to come to the table, POJA, this issue...
But for some reason, he seems anxious about this. I don't know. I can't speak for him as you say but when bringing up the subject, he does the FIGHT. I'm not exactly sure why. Does he expect me to FIGHT..because of my past pattern..so he is coming out of the ring first...

My hypothesis about him is that he wants to continue to AVOID this CONFLICT..which has been easy for us because I have pretty much gone along with him on most things since Recovery...there has been no major conflicts or issues that I have felt strongly about. This time I do and want to express my differing opinion. This seems to be making him anxious.

My plan, kind of as you suggested Loving, is to bring the subject up to him in a LOVING way, saying that "I feel that we need to talk about this". Otherwise, there's a good chance that I will EXPLODE in anger as he is expecting me to do. Does he want to provoke this so that we don't have to deal with the conflict? I just don't know...

Being honest about my feelings seems to me to be the most LOVING thing for me to do..for myself and for him.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Okay, being honest about your feelings is the most loving way...

In your post, you say, you said "I feel scared" and then say, I was really feeling angry...

Is that honest? With yourself or him? Would you, my mentor in many ways, giggle at me if I said...

"I feel that we need to talk about this" that this isn't your truth? If you want to talk about this, "I need to talk about this with you," then you talk about it. "I feel" and "I believe" statements. You do it. You say, this is me...separate from you...you're not causing me this anger...and I fear your anger...which isn't you doing it to me...I know this...I need your help in not withdrawing...you're not making me withdraw...

I don't hear you getting to the heart of why you want what you want, which seems to be different from what your H wants...to your own heart...that kick up of the belief of being owed...that's a signal...no bash...hidden stuff in you...

You want to express your differing opinion...why are you stopping yourself? No attack in "I feel" or "I believe"..."I see it this way"...unless you believe he's stopping you from doing what he cannot do...then inner conflict looks like outer conflict.

I know you know this...I'm taking you back to the pre-Mimi...walking through the steps again...because I am discovering replacing old beliefs with new ones takes a lot of practice...and over time, I'm surprised to discover I slip them on without thinking.

I thought when I replaced a belief, it would stay and override the old ones...

Trace your emotions to your beliefs...find your ways of projecting and use those to see what is in you...as help, not judgment...his expectations have nothing to do with you...put them aside...your own are more active in what you're feeling...

Your choice to speak, to state, to own, are yours. This does not undo anything you've learned...does not mean you haven't changed...all you are experiencing is finding a belief you didn't know you had...

And yes, Mimi...I am/was the same way with anger...it is the oldest belief I have in myself...it stays, hides under others, and is very difficult to pin down and calm down...my primal fear is anger directed at me...yet, I have sustained a lot of self-directed anger all my life, so I know it's contours within me...told myself I was bad, wrong and defective...when it is mine, all mine, and just letting me know I have more to do to know me.

Your H hasn't been avoiding conflict...I would disavow myself of this chosen belief...because what his reasons are remain his...until he states, you can't know...and he doesn't feel safe to state...I believe you when you say you both have this primal fear of angering...does anger represent the end of love? Did for my H...

Find your fear, Mimi...sit with it, know it intimately, and you'll see your anger drop off...fearing our own anger isn't the cure...escalates the fear and the anger...remember you love this man for who he is, wholly human, as you are, your equal, fully capable as you are...respect this...and respect what you don't know until he speaks it...loving detachment...remaining honest with yourself...you are in the midst of something really important to your life, to your self...

The more you look to his possible intentions, the more your fear jumps and your anger swells...stop looking for what you don't know. Your H is new...in this day...do not assign or assume...nor do that with yourself.

You're worth it.

LA

Thank you so much for what you are sharing with me and teaching me, Loving.

Thank-you, thank-you, my new-found Cyberfriend!!

I'm processing this....

I was thinking the same just before posting...that I
need to go ahead and SPEAK MY TRUTH..with emphasis on MY TRUTH...

I'll be back later...going to spend some time with MY HUSBAND.

You have inspired, chagrined and tickled me many times over, cyberfriend...

The privilege is all mine.

I wanted to quote The Princess Bride, but like lyrics, I rarely get quotes correct...when Andre the Giant's character says, in summary, when you lose your way, go back to the beginning. So here I am.

(((Mimi)))

LA

When I say, "I HELD ON TIGHT", I remained calm, yet assertive, from beginning to end...without fleeing, without fighting (yelling and/or screaming), without even crying.

I launched right into discussion of THE ISSUE.

My H almost immediately began to rant.

THE NEW ME (with Loving's encouragement today) did not panic. In the past, my H's anger would have made me FEARFUL . My response to THE FEAR would have been to FIGHT BACK ..to yell and scream back at him..saying stupid irrelevant stuff...or to FLEE ..."I'm not going to talk to you anymore"...in other words, I will do what I want to do.

Able to listen to him without fear and to be present in the conflict, I learned that this is a NONNEGOTIABLE ISSUE for him. I realized that I can't force him to POJA if he refuses to do so. He believes that he has made this clear to me by not talking about the subject. When he presented his reasons for not negotiating and for not agreeing (although yelling), his points were valid and reasonable. In fact, I agree with him wholeheartedly. I was dead wrong about this issue.

My H is actually very wise and intelligent about a lot of things. I told him so.

I used to be self-righteous even when I was wrong.

So now the discussion became NOT ABOUT THE ISSUE .

The discussion became about US Why are we communicating so poorly about this? I pointed this out to him...the communication problem. He heard and calmed down. He was able to hear me when I said: "I would have listened if you had told me why you disagree with me...your points are good...I agree with you...it's not OK for you to shut me out and cut me off.."

He claims that I should know how he feels..I should know and understand his viewpoint...I should know that this is not negotiable to him... I SHOULD KNOW WITHOUT HIM HAVING TO TELL ME. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The good news: He seemed to have a lightbulb moment himself in realizing that his strong negative feelings or dissenting opinions can be shared openly with me. He seemed shocked yet pleased that I was INVITING him to do that.

He also mentioned that... IN THE PAST...I would have done one of my "power plays". That's when I used to FLEE and do what I want anyways. I would make such big messes without his assistance. He thought I was going to do this again but this is the NEW ME.

Well, what do you guys think about this?

If the issue is non-negotiable, can you POJA that, or is it equally non-negotiable for you?

If that deadlock is the case, but you feel better because you're now communicating instead of him expecting you to mystically mind-read, what happens then?

What does he give up in order to have his way on this issue so that you are 100% enthusiastic with the joint decision? Or did the conflict avoider in you just say "whew! braved that one. He ranted. I didn't back down. Who cares if it's non-negotiable?" Back to your formerly scheduled programming?

Kayla:




Come to think of it, I guess you can say that I FORCED the POJA on an issue that he was choosing to make non-negotiable....and once we did the POJA...although with him ranting...I actually DO AGREE WITH HIM.

We've identified that we have problems with communication though. He rants..expects me to mystically mind-read? I don't feel good at all about those things.

However, I believe that I can only control myself and work on myself. My task is to share with him how his ranting IS NOT OK with ME and that I WILL NOT be able to MIND-READ. This will become a new task..making this clear to him.

I'm thankful that I have learned to HOLD TIGHT, though..That's a personal accomplishment for me!

Pep - interesting place you live!

I'm not sure what Tuck is talking about...

But for me, you mentioned on another thread to ASK YOU ABOUT THE POJA problem...

What do you think about mine after reading my post about the CONVERSATION (?) between my H and I yesterday?

I'm not sure if addiction fits in or not. He is not an alcoholic but was definitely ADDICTED to the OW. I think FOGGINESS is still present in his desire for me to MINDREAD.

My FEAR OF ANGER has to do with being a CHILD OF AN ALCOHOLIC..raised for many years in an ALCOHOLIC FAMILY where M and F were often out of control...

Your thoughts?

later Mimi

gotta go get dressed !

Pep

Please Do!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was referring to my post at 11:53 PM on Sunday. Thanks.

After the post and questioning from Kayla, I realized that my speaking to the conflict resulted in us POJAing on an issue that my H was attempting to make NONNEGOTIABLE.

We POJAed but my H ranted throughout. Although he was RANTING, I was able to listen to what he was saying because I didn't RANT back...able to remain "CALM, ENGAGED AND PRESENT" (as you have instructed me)... despite his LOUDNESS..that was VERY NEW for me...Thanks, Pep!!!

I thought your mentioning of SUBMITTING to POJAing was relevant in this somehow.

I'm not sure what Tuck is talking about...

I am certain I do NOT know what Tuck is talking about ... and I also sort of LIKE the ~mystery & suspense~ of not knowing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But for me, you mentioned on another thread to ASK YOU ABOUT THE POJA problem...

Yeah ... because there is no POJA at all in an alcoholic dance ... so, she has no skills in this regard & she may not even recognize she lacks those skills !!!

What do you think about mine after reading my post about the CONVERSATION (?) between my H and I yesterday?

marvelous dahling
simply marvelous

I'm not sure if addiction fits in or not. He is not an alcoholic but was definitely ADDICTED to the OW. I think FOGGINESS is still present in his desire for me to MINDREAD.

I don't think your H is addicted ... he is habituated to a communication style, that's all .... not UNlike ourselves !!! LOL

My FEAR OF ANGER has to do with being a CHILD OF AN ALCOHOLIC..raised for many years in an ALCOHOLIC FAMILY where M and F were often out of control...

and as an adult, you can talk yourself out of your old fears

don't forget the steps of POJA begins with your own self-honesty

the point is to make BOTH of you happy with the solution

and you ask each other "How do you feel about *this* answer to the problem?"

and you stay focused

and you did (mostly)

Your thoughts?

Let's guess what Tuck meant <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think she thinks I live my life wearing a tin foil hat because I live in "Hollywood"

LOL
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

No mystery at all - sorry to disappoint you. Pep has "Shrek's Swamp" as her location (just look to the left hand side of your screen under the number of posts). Perhaps it's been there for months but I only noticed it yesterday and it made me LOL. I knew you lived in a fairytale Pep. Happy Ever Afters ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> TT

LOL

I forgot I wrote that !!!!

well

we are living through a home renovation

feels & smells like a swamp

*ribbit*

LaLa Land sounds nice too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mimi,

I think you were great...because you taught your brain, when you fear, you could hold it and not act on it.

First step...keep repeating.

You found out your H relies on you mindreading and assuming...that can feel like love. I know. Been there, believed that. "If you loved me, you'd know instinctively why I don't want to do this thing." It's not love. You know that. It's called DJs...and you can better see they have many payoffs...doing them to others quells fears...encourages being self-deceitful...having them done to you can feel like being loved and known...without really having to be known.

I think your H is going to tumble this one inside himself...mine did. "Wow, now that I say I believe that, it really doesn't sound reasonable." The lightbulb moment you mentioned.

Would you guys be willing to do communication exercises...presented as you wanting to improve your own...increase this new present and non-reactive state you've begun?

Very scary for those who being known is their worst fear...and through the exercises, they learn there is nothing in them so bad it can't be known.

How to build intimacy...

And would you consider expanding your choice repetoire other than fight or flight? Progressive boundary enforcements are acts of love...for you and your DH. Want to talk about some?

I love how once you heard his reasons that you saw THE ISSUE differently...and agreed with him. I LOVE THAT. You're a marvelous human, Mimi...your own self-honesty is gonna see you through anything...and big kudos on not acting on your own, anyway. That was from respect of your marriage, even though you saw your DH driving you bonkers...you didn't go there.

LA

BUILDING INTIMACY..TRUE INTIMACY...Yes, that's where we are, Loving.

You guys are also helping me to walk towards my H rather than pulling away....

The FIGHT and THE FLIGHT are also means to avoid closeness or to deal with the anxiety associated with TRUE TRANPARENCY...



I most definitely want to talk about the other options...



Oh, my, you really think so? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

That's a nice thing for you to say about me.

I do strive to be the best that I can be in this life.



This is SOOOO interesting. I used this very term.."don't go there" in a conversation with my YS yesterday.

My son reacted in the EXACT SAME way as his father in a DIFFICULT discussion we were having. Being my son, he was not only raising his voice but was also being disrespectful. What has been my typical response to him as well? I either YELL back (FIGHT) or say we aren't going to talk anymore (FLIGHT)...just like with the H....either response has tended to further ENRAGE my son.."Mommy, you won't REALLY deal with me"..

So yes, I need other behavioral options...

Yesterday, I was able to use the same approach with my YS as with my H. I maintained my cool and calmly stated: "Don't go there and he calmed right down. AMAZING!!!

My question to you is this: Have I elicited this type of response from them? Has my YS modeled this from his father or a mixture of this? I'm thinking that I somehow have elicited this...that I have given the message that I can't handle their true feelings so they have to come at me hard in order to express themselves. Not sure about this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

"You guys are also helping me to walk towards my H rather than pulling away...."

You are choosing, brave goddess, to walk towards your H rather than pulling away...you are choosing to do this, holding your fear and not acting from it.

And yes, this correlates with your YS...

Yes, our children learn these behaviors from us...our reactions become theirs...or they rebel, reacting opposite...and 180 from sick is still sick...

We are all seeking that moderation, that 90 degrees of living...what a blessing your son has spoken his desire directly to you..."I want you to really deal with me"...I don't hear "fix, solve or heal"...I hear deal...please know me...all of me...

To know and NOT focus on you being responsible for what he feels, thinks, believes or how he acts...respect those are his, and his choices, alone.

As yours are yours. I applauded you for having the urge to withdraw and you choosing not to go there.

Saying this to your son, in my belief, is a DJ. You are not enforcing a boundary...you are making a demand. It worked this time, as you saw it...your goal as a mother is not to fix, protect or control...it is to be there as they grow, solve, discover and be...two beings in the same space...at this age, with YS...is he 19 now?

Maybe he heard your "don't go there" as a boundary statement...if he chose to AO, then you would end the discussion?

Find out...this is a man finding himself...you don't give him directions...you use listen and repeat...you "deal" by staying present, not fighting or flighting (can I make that a word?)...you deal by acknowledging, validating what he feels is his own...along with his beliefs, thoughts and perspectives...all his own.

He will guide you when you really hear what he is saying...you can't really hear when you're hearing, instead, you're a cause or a control or a cure...can you?

I love your questions...have you elicited...this is your brilliance, Mimi...right to it...brave and true.

And yes, before I go further, I do believe you're a marvelous human being...you can't earn that, be better or it will go away (my opinion)...you will remain that to me...how I see you...no earning required.

Cited for eliciting...elicitation...hmmm...Are you asking if you had influence? Yes. He allowed your influence. Why, you don't really know yet...I'd ask. Would be interesting to know...why he chose to calm down...

You allowed your H's influence in THE ISSUE when you heard him all the way through...when you withdraw, you disallow his influence...would you agree?

We have no control...we have influence...our very presence is an influence...when others allow it...consciously or subconsciously...but do you elicit? When you change the dance by changing yourself...others choose their reactions/actions differently...is that what you mean...by changing, you elicit?

Will you focus yourself on the truth in the question...instead of the blame? Can you handle your loved ones true feelings? When you fully trust yourself with that truth being your belief, then will it matter what message they heard? They took a message...if your intent is not to give any other one but that you love who they are, honor and respect their true feelings as their own...can you let go of the results?

Options inbetween fight or flight...

Progressive boundary enforcements. You are now committed to staying present (not lost in your future thoughts or past incidents while your H and you are having discussions), listening and repeating for clarification or confirmation...you are no longer requiring a discussion to have a solution, only an acknowledgement...information exchanged, not problems solved. One is essential for the other, don't you think? That's what I viewed your ISSUE as...

I was stunned to learn 90% of all marital issues didn't have to be solved...only understood.

That blew me away...I was addicted to fixing.

LOL

Jobless. Felt I got fired, was useless, learning that.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So you have already demonstrated one alternative response inbetween fight and flight...many that you may fight don't need any fight or opposing...you can have your opinions and beliefs (they're yours); and he can have his. Agreeing to disagree is discovering, not judging...it is knowing you both think differently about something and that's okay. Knowing what has to be POJA'd and what doesn't (there's no mutual action, just two differing beliefs) is important, too.

Another is for the way you both communicate...if you no longer allow yourself to AO (you revoked that permission because that is not who you are), then you put in place a progressive boundary enforcement around it being done to you. Notice the balance...your standards are what you do not allow yourself to do to others...boundaries are what you do not allow to be done to you without pre-stated enforcements...

We know we don't allow others to do to us...they do...not in our control...so I make that statement much longer to emphasize we only can control how we choose to react to boundary violations, not stop them from happening at all.

Informing your loved ones of your boundaries is what I believe is the next step between fighting and flighting...

"If I hear you raise your voice to me, then I will state I heard you do so. If you continue, I will say, 'Ouch!' because I feel pain when you yell. If you continue, then I will remove myself from our discussion for one hour (or 10 minutes, 20...whatever it is for you) and then resume the discussion."

There's four things now in between fight or flight...progessive, pre-stated, not while in conflict, though, you can re-iterate them (I don't recommend more than once)...key is, to hold yourself to them.

You may feel attacked, not in a discussion...about something. "I am feeling attacked. Can we discuss this at 5pm tomorrow? I want time to work through all I just felt in a rush at once."

Ownership, not blame...truly, your feelings are yours, aren't they? You aren't withdrawing...you are considering.

Tough balance when you may have used one in place of the other...hidden guises...clever personal ruses within us...I know I had them all tangled up in myself...took me relying on my intent, making it pure...from love not fear...before I could trust myself to be doing one and not the other.

Books which helped me along the way..."Fighting For Your Marriage" by Howard Markman, Stanley and Bloomberg..."Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work" by Gottman..."Between Parent and Child" and yeah, I forget the author...he was awesome...it was in its 18th reprinting (since 1972) and he has passed on.

Your dedication to getting it...whatever the "it" is...is what triggers a lot of admiration in me...take that gut-need to fix and turn it to investigate, Mimi...your bravery in being a lighthouse, becoming the woman you are right now, will see you through anything. Know this. Like you're already there.

LA

Loving you said:



You definitely must have been in my shoes...walked the same paths and roads as I have.

TO NOT TRY TO FIX, PROTECT OR CONTROL IS HARD AS HECK FOR ME!!!

I not only want to do this with my sons but, yes, also with my H. Didn't you know that I am the MOTHER HEN? I am only doing this out of "my love" for them because of course "MOTHER KNOWS BEST"..the walking milk bottle that I am...

So there are options other than fix/protect/control OR withdraw? I often fantasize about WITHDRAWING from my son (FLIGHT) as opposed to fix/protect/control. Thanks for helping me become aware of this.

I CAN JUST BE THERE WITH HIM ....AND STILL BE A GOOD MOTHER?



Why? This is my suspicion. In that conversation, with the NEW ME, he heard me calming my ownself down. I was saying out loud: "I'm not going to yell back at you. I'm going to listen to what you have to say." Thinking back now, I bravely took the risk of SUFFERING ALONG WITH HIM rather than try to FIX/CONTROL, etc. I DEALT WITH HIM!!

YS: What I am going to do this? I'm feeling down or whatever now? Fix this for me... (Not exact words but basically this in a LOUD, WHINING VOICE).

Me: (Basically).. It is a difficult decision that you have to make...life is hard..I'm sad for you...I love you..this is the way your life is NOW..it will be better in the future, ETC.



INFLUENCE.... This is the major learning piece from me...lots of folks here have been helping me with this. I learned to fix/protect/control..to do. I did not learn the significance and impact of influence...mine own and others. This is all making such sense to me now. I'm recalling both of my son's saying: "Why do you always have to try to fix things?" But, on the other hand, though, when I am not MAGICAL, my loved ones seem to give me the message that I have let them down..Like not being able to READ MY H'S MIND...people want to think of me as being MAGICAL and I try to live up to that image.



WOW...I'm blown away by the revelation that I also have this addiction...

And there have been payoffs for this..that have kept me hooked...

WOW....THIS IS MAJOR FOR ME, LOVING....

I wish I could hug you...

This a lot for right now. I'll be back later.