Mimi

here is the secret to our success .....

as I surrender my self will to these "one-sided" moments with my husband .... he grows as a man & he would lay down his very life to save mine .... he would

your man is like that too

study him for a week of no Mimi suggestions ... he will become more solicitous toward you

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

Pep..I wish you could see this big <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> on my face as I am reading your responses...

THE LIGHTBULB IS STEADY BEAMING!!!

Georgia, of course, I luv ya, too... (and NO this is NOT an EA... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

I know that, Mimi....

Just ASSUME the same response from me...but if I say it out loud we'll both surely be pelted with insinuations...

And Pep said:



So the Quote for Today is from The Five People You Meet in Heaven (another one of my favorites):

FAIRNESS DOES NOT GOVERN LIFE....

Mimi..struggling NOT TO HELP..but I did NURTURE..being the CAPTIVATING WOMAN that I am... and fixed him a Great Southern Lunch.. fresh yellow squash ...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Look whose up in the wee hours since her H is out of town...

I've got to get to bed in order to get up in the morning...

Gee Whiz..I've been BAD!!!!

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I'm asking for your observations, insight and advice.

I think that I/we are on the verge of some sort of great understanding and breakthrough.

We have been closer, more intimate than ever. That's the good yet SCARY news.

I have made a lot of major changes in myself and my approach towards my H.

All this being said, we had another EMOTIONALLY-CHARGED CONVERSATION last night. This resulted from my H's continued struggles in his interactions with our OS. They have had more close involvement with each other than ever before. This has been MAJOR for both of them. I have stayed completely out of it. They have established a relationship on their own. Our son works with my H in the same business so there is lots of comraderie between them about this.

HOWEVER, my H has continually complained to me about a certain aspect of their relationship that really, really bothers him. My approach has been to bite my lip and to just LISTEN without providing any advice. This has been very difficult because it has seemed that he has wanted my advice because he keeps on complaining to me. Plus, I really feel like I know the answer. I really feel like I can "HELP". Why does he keep bringing this up if he doesn't want me to help? I know. I know. I'm sharing my thought process with you guys.

So last night my H was really, really bothered after several interactions with our son. From my H's point of view: He feels DISRESPECTED because our son CRITICIZES him about his business practices. It is clear and evident that my H cannot handle any form of what he senses as being CRITICISM or even CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK from me or the children! He acknowledges this. It seems to HURT HIM to the core. From my son's point of view: Being able to openly talk to this Dad this way is a good thing..he sees this as them now being CLOSER THAN EVER. From my point of view: I think my son does not understand that my H sees what he is doing as being DISRESPECTFUL and would stop his behavior if I shared that this HURTS his father.

So I no longer bit my lip and shared with my H our son's POV which my son has shared with me. Our son seems to have no clue that this enrages his Dad. When I say I will doo this...talk to our son, H begins the loud talking, sounding rageful, communication style with me.

H (loudly): He knows it is disrespectful. He is trying to put me down. He doesn't want my advice. He is not recognizing my superiority... (Not exactly what he said..but the gist of what he said)

Me: (Remaining calm..which is new..despite my H's loud voice): Why would he want to hurt you? He does love and RESPECT you. He IDOLIZES you and feels that he cannot measure up to you, etc. Why don't YOU tell him HOW you FEEL if you don't want me to tell him?

H: Because he is insecure.(Acknowledges my POV). But that doesn't matter. He just needs to listen to me and not criticize me. Period. Regardless of the psychological reasons why he is doing it...(Again basically just the gist of what he said)

Me: I feel to blame so maybe I should talk to him about it. (Friends, I said this because I realize that the boys are a lot like me emotionally and personality-wise. They are open about their feelins, self-righteous and judgemental).

H: (Old stuff) You see, that's what you always use to do..let them whine to you about their feelings. I'm not going to talk about my feelings to him. I DON'T DO THAT WITH PEOPLE. That's just whining, etc. People know how you feel without you telling them. (That magical stuff again). Accept me for who I am. I'm not going to change this and start talking openly about my feelings. (He was pretty clear and adamant about this).

MB friends, this is a BIGGY! I don't like this about my H...Yes, definitely have wanted to change this about him..see the potential of him changing this..but openly talking about feelings is scary for him and he does not want to do it!

What do you say about this?

Plus, do you think I should go ahead and share with my son about how his father feels? If I talked to our son, I'm sure he would change his style. His current relationship with his F means soooo much to him.

This morning my H seemed down..depressed. He usually is upbeat in the morning. This morning the house was eerily quiet..no TV..no talking. He fixed my coffee as usual but made a point of not being available to kiss me goodbye.

What are your thoughts???

Where do I go from here?

Oh Mimi!!!!

My heart aches for you...

I'll be back.

Mimi...

I'm reading this in between those pesky meetings...and I may be tied up a bit....

I just had to tell you that you (unintentionally, I know..) brought a smile to my face with this line:

"He is not recognizing my superiority... (Not exactly what he said..but the gist of what he said)"

I love it! You would be amazed at how many people don't recognize my superiority!! Just one more small trait me and your H have in common.

(I don't mean to offend some frivolity, that just struck me funny. I know it's serious, and I'll be back).

By the way...your sitch doesn't sound as bad as I thought on my first quick glance...

Mimi,

Here's my advice for what's worth:

Empower him: "H, I know this is really bothering you, and I trust you to come up with a solution that fits your personality. I'm a fixer by nature, and don't like to see anyone I love suffering....but I understand that a solution that might be right for me....isn't necessarily right for you."

Touch him: (If he'll let you) Give him physical touch...affection, sex etc.

Stay out of it: Men don't go to other men with their emotions. Both your son and your husband have come to you, but that doesn't mean you're responsible for how they feel, act, nor does it mean you have the power to fix it. "Gosh, I wish I could help. That must be so hard." Is as much as either of them are asking for. In fact....if they depended on you to "fix" this....they would feel even more powerless.

Presenting your son's POV probably felt like invalidation to your husband. It wasn't intended that way....but he may have interpretted that as "support" for your son's POV and "against" his POV. Listen and hold him. Tell him that a solution will "come to him" and that since they've become closer, you know they'll work it out.

Father's and sons have conflict at this age....and your son sounds like he's challenging authority to some degree.....that's what son's do....and father's don't like it. Give it time. You can't take back the things you said.....but give them a little time to sink in. In the meantime....if you don't return the anger....he'll have a much harder time feeding it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mimi

I'm not one of your mentors, but your post made me smile ruefully. I understand that need to 'manage' the relationships between family members, to 'help them to undertstand each other'. That's my weakness, too.

What you're doing is caretaking - doing someone else's work for them. It feels like you're doing it to help, but are you...really? Because the harsh fact is that the relationship between your H and your OS belongs to them. They have to sort it out between themselves, however painful, aggressive or even catastrophic that process may be. No matter how clearly you can see the problem, it's not your business to 'help'. Your role is to be fair to each of them on your own terms, and offer support when it's asked for. Telling them how they should behave, and interpreting their inner worlds for them, is a DJ, no matter how well-intentioned you are.

Of course, the downside of this is that you have to watch the car crash in slow motion. In truth, isn't that what we're trying to spare ourselves by 'helping'?

I know I catch myself doing this all the time.

TA

”They have had more close involvement with each other than ever before. This has been MAJOR for both of them. I have stayed completely out of it.”

Then…why are you suddenly feeling like you must to be back in the middle of it?

“My approach has been to … LISTEN without providing any advice. This has been very difficult because it has seemed that he has wanted my advice because he keeps on complaining to me. Plus, I really feel like I know the answer.”

It sounds to me like he has learned to trust the intimacy of your (Mimi & H) relationship. Why would you think he wants your advice just because he keeps on complaining to you? I suspect that he’s troubled with this relationship and he complains to you because you are his confidante.

“So I no longer bit my lip and shared with my H our son's POV which my son has shared with me.”

Mimi shedding her toga and slipping into the much, much more comfortable traffic cop attire. Unfortunately, she finds she can’t wear both at the same time… Mimi morphs into Judge Judy. Ah yes….that’s better…I’m in charge again.

Mimi…of everything you said, here is what really troubles me:

“… but made a point of not being available to kiss me goodbye.”

Why? Are you sticking to you and H being “one”, no matter what? If H and OS are having some communication issues, and H is coming to you for comfort (which is what he is doing), then why do you have to put on the Judge Judy robe and step down from your pedestal? This doesn’t need to divide you and H (neither of you got a good morning kiss!!).

Let me raise a very contentious issue.

I question the wisdom of OS working with H if this continues. OS is a man now, time to go slay his own dragons.

And…no…I don’t think you should be the pivot point between H and OS about their “feelings”.

Oh My, the Fixaholic better known as Judge Judy strikes again?

How dare they be so competent as to work this out on their own without my "help"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Thanks All!! Old, automatic roles..are SOOOO hard to change!!

Georgia, it's OK!!

I called my H all UPBEAT and he's back loving on me again..even "CONFIDED" with me AGAIN about HIS SON..as if last night never happened..of course, he doesn't want to TALK about it...

We are off this weekend for a trip to celebrate our 30th Wedding Anniversary!!!!

OK, I'm out of their business...I'm out of their business...

Back to Goddess...

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Mimi, I know this is not a funny situation but I had to laugh as I read this because it is deja vue pretty much word for word.

My H is the son in this situation so I hear the other side of this on a regular basis. My FIL has a construction business, and my H is set to take over any day now. My FIL has recently experienced some serious health issues so he`s about to retire. My FIL took over the business from his father about 25 years ago. My H has worked in the business for almost 20 years now, H did leave and work somehwere else for four years when H finally lost patience. My FIL begged H to return and he eventually did.

What I find funny about your post is that what your H says about your son is EXACTLY what my H says about his father. And I would venture a guess that your son feels the same way that his father does.

There is no respect, he doesn`t want to take any advice, they are not equals.

This is what my H says about his father. And I am sure this is how my FIL feels about my H otherwise he would not be so defensive so critical and unwilling to take ANY suggestions from my H.

Do you see what`s going on here?

The sons are trying to measure up to their father, become their equals, they are seeking respect from their fathers, they want their fathers to be proud of them.

But the sons are going about things in the wrong way and I think perhaps expecting too much at times.

Fathers and sons are going to be VERY much alike. And this tends to create alot of conflict. There is an element of competiton there and the sons want their fathers respect so they tend to treat their fathers the same way that their fathers treat them. Men learn how to be men, how to behave like men from their fathers.

So if your H does not like the way that your son behaves he needs to look at HIS OWN behaviour.

If he finds your son disrespectful he needs to ask himself does he disrespect his son? Does he ever take his son`s advice?

My H and my FIL butt heads over the same things that you have described. I sit back and watch.

I find it comical because H and FIL are so much alike and they know precisley how to get one another`s goat.

My H is indoctrinating our sons the same way and I am not sure how to put a stop to it or even if I should.

Congrats, Mimi....but I'm still kinda keeping an eye on that missed goodbye kiss thing. I think that's a big deal, personally....

However..there'll be plenty of "catch up" time on your trip. Congratulations on your anniversary!!! (Next month would have been our 30th. I am thinking of ways to distract myself on that day.)

Mimi

ever watch Animal Planet on TV?

This reminds me so much of nature programs...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

... the lioness would be really ill-advised to come between the 2 male lions vying for dominance ....

next time they do this ... go shopping

Hi Mimi.

Here's perhaps a couple of thoughts for you and your husband think about concering this "Male-Male" issue.

1. Women tend to relate emotionally, men tend to relate logically and have been raised to NOT let emotions interfere.

2. Letting your "little boy" play "Mommy against Daddy" is just another form of strategy that children learn at a very young age. "If I don't get what I want from one parent, go to the other one. Once one of them agrees, I win and will eventually get what I want, after all, "Mommy or Daddy said I could and that trumps your 'no'."

3. Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

4. Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.

5. Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

6. Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

7. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

Happy 30th!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Enjoy, and have a GREAT weekend!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


God bless.


P.S. It sure sounds like your marriage has reached the "recovered and normal" stage!

YES!!

This is definitely some really primal, basic, instinctual FATHER-SON bonding process that I can't possibly fully understand and need to stay out of...despite my yearnings...

The lesson for me is how hard... how very hard it is not to BUTT IN where I don't belong. SHOPPING sounds like a GREAT OPTION,Pep... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do know this. I love them both sooo much... AND they love each other... AND they BOTH very much LOVE ME...that's for sure....

I'm thankful for this because not so very long ago I was not so sure as I am today of their love for each other AND my H's love for me...

I would just LOVE to see them go ahead and work it out...

But you guys are right.. they need to do it THEIR WAY and in THEIR OWN TIME...

You are right, Daisy. They are so very much alike yet so different...The business situation is much like you describe between your H and FIL..and it will certainly be in ALL of our best interests if BOTH of our sons eventually succeed and become involved in the business...it's a business that my H has done their entire lives...

Georgia, believe me, I can very easily make up for that morning kiss which is never ALL THAT...it's moreso a morning PECK... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Thanks to ALL of you wise ones...

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Mimi,

I am not encouraging either one of my son`s to eventually take over the family business although when my oldest son was newborn my FIL took his small hand and said "Yep...this is a stone mason`s hand, I can see it already...."

If either one of my son`s does want to go into masonry that will be fine with me but I will never push it. My H does not either thank goodness. It`s a VERY physcially demanding job and can be dangerous.

My brother did not follow my father`s footsteps, he became a lawyer instead but there remains an element of competition between he and my father. But they have a good relationship and my father calls on my brother for advice regularily. I think that by not working together they have gained more respect for one another and have a better relationship overall.

I would like that for my H and my sons too but that choice is not mine to make.

For what it`s worth I have heard that the relationship mothers have with teenaged daughters is as bad as it gets so I guess I should be thankful for missing out on that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I agree and have steered clear of getting involved in these choices for our sons.

That's just it..I've been surprised by their decisions to want to follow in their father's footsteps. I never would have predicted this. To me, it's a testimony to their ADMIRATION of him and his business success.

I think Georgia's onto something about our son wanting his father's respect and I do see my H getting advice from our son who has a younger person's perspective. Others in the business also like our son's style. It's a real balancing act that really seems good for the both of them. I need to learn to deal with HEARING them without wanting to rush in and FIX things... My H is the one that COMPLAINS. Our son seems happy and satisfied with his job choice...and our YS can't wait to follow in his brother's footsteps..he idolizes his older brother... and the STRUGGLE FOR MALE DOMINANCE CONTINUES.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to stick with shopping...and other girly stuff...