Froz-



Thanks for having my back, you know I love ya' girl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thank you also for the Ohio Divorce Forms link.

God Bless,

-Caren

KaylaAndy-



I will admit that I do get hung up on SF, I do seem to need it more than I'd like to. I get caught up in my need for SF,and the only person that I can have that with is my WH....you know? I mean I don't want to be an adulterer also, so I figure the only person I can engage in SF with is the person I married. (And yes....VERY aware this person I'm dealing with now is NOT the same person I married).

God Bless,

-Caren

So where do I go from here??? Do I write a Plan B letter?

God Bless,

-Caren

What I would do if I was Caren...

NO plan B letter..
as you stated he as a bunch of them...

STAY in contact with HIM....

but here's the key...

[color:"purple"]INVEST NOTHING IN HIM AND EXPECT NOTHING FROM HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/color]

bide your time watching each and every action ...

[color:"purple"]BUT REMAIN 1000000000000000% NON-REACTIONAL TO HIM [/color]

Here's your dance so far...

you and he are hanging out..

he does things like contact..
calls and says no don't come today come tomorrow
sends pictures of his wedding ring...

and you rise to each and every occasion with lots of emotion...

remove yourself from all emotion...

do 180's where you are in control..

invite him to things and out with family rejoice if he comes...care not...no investing in his appearance...

be the first to leave him
the last to call him..
plan NO outing dependant on him..
lets you and I go here and there
plan NO dates one on one...
family time
out in public things....
be the one to say NO to his suggested outings...and then watch his phone...watch for you saying no..and then see if he immediately goes to her on the phone...

it his ACTIONS and not a word he speaks that you should be interested in....

so far all he has to do is speak some insane notion and you respond....

babble back...
he says...

I'm not paying childsupport....
babble back..

really...interesting...

let him CHASE you...

in the mean time..

save your pennies....

gather the documents

and watch every action..

give yourself three months...

ask for counseling together
see if he follows through...

tell him once...and then not again about his NEED to make amends to the children..

and watch his actions.....with them....

mark YOUR calendar for drama free days...

has he changed..that's what you are watching for..

and tally his actions that show change and those that don't..

you can't change him.

and time is here for him to decide on his own..
and for you to decide if your whole marriage is going to be a powerstruggle with OW....etc...

that's what I'd do...

ARK^^

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure why you recommended that approach, ark.

I'm sure you have your reasons.

Have you been following Caren from the beginning?

Caren has already, IMO, tried some variation of your approach.

However, Caren has never ever, IMO, been able to accomplish an effective, DARK, PLAN B FOR HERSELF.

It seems to me that's what is necessary but...

Caren, you need to be strong enough, tactful enough, strategic enough to pull it off...

You have to work on the SF Need and the Communication Need...and your ADDICTION to him and the drama..for want of a better word...

Your H sounds like he can charm you and has some sort of control over you.

I think contact with him will result in more of the SAME...

I don't think Caren is capable right now of being in his company without reacting...

Distance from him will make you STRONGER, CAREN...

You might..just might outgrow him..if you really, really distance yourself from him...

You seem to have taken steps at distancing through your current arrangement...

IMO, it seems that there needs to be a CLEAN BREAK..so that he cannot get to you at all whatsoever and you have NO CONTACT with him...

my opinion is that he will use plan B as a weapon against her...

that he will hold it over her head forever and forever as forcing him to change...
will use it to blame her

you won't let me have friends.
you made me do this or that....
I only came back because you made me...
etc etc etc...

it is all he knows...

he must see the value of being an honorable vow abiding husband...on his own.....

that's why I say give him free reign to choose.....
with caren beside him....

plenty of time...

three months....
and if on his own he can not and will not see the value of being a true husband...

it is my opinion he never will and plan B will just be ANOTHER false recovery......

this in my opinion has gone on too long for another plan B letter....

plan B letters gives him permission to buy the same old same....

distancing will and can only result in movingo on..

too many do that here...and distance themselves out of the marriage...

I think Caren will feel better about this if it is ALL his own choice based on NONE of her actions...

she will know the truth....

either he will quit the chaos..because he gets that is what he needs to do...or he won't....

caren has already told him adnauseum what she would like from her marriage...

he has the knowledge...

that's my opinion....

they will spend months rallying breaking and fudging plan B...and next thing you know caren and her husband will be in the exact same spot they are today....six months from now.....

he KNOWS what he needs to do....

he either will or he won't...
and IF he either will or won't because SHE "makes" him..

then it is of NO value or worth in the first place...

ARK

I agree with Mimi.

Sorry Ark, but 3 more months of the same old dance won't do anyone any good. Why bother analyzing his actions -- his most recent actions are:
1. calling OW
2. lying about it
3. blaming you for snooping
4. convincing you to get you off his back
5. very likely seeing her (don't ignore those flags on July 3rd...)
6. disrespecting you (I don't want to see you EVERY DAY caren...)

Caren, can you put your TAKER away long enough to do a proper Plan B? Forget about your "needs", sexual and otherwise?
He has found all the ways around your Plan B.

Did the NC letter ever get sent? Obviously it did no good.
Not just a letter but ACTUAL NO CONTACT should be your boundry!
A picture of his wedding ring? So its not lost after all...but it sure got you to jump didn't it???? GOD, what a game player he is!!!! Frankly after all the toying around he's done with it -- I'd want him to wear it too, but not on his finger!

Caren, your Plan B doesn't work because you never take him off your radar. You are always too aware of the number of calls between him and DD11 etc. You're not out of the loop, you're not dark. And he uses them as a source for info on you.

You need Plan C (plan caren). Have you ever tried the 180 list?

Why do you think that he is different than any other WH?

And why should it matter to her what he does..whether he blames her or not or whatever...

This is about Caren getting stronger and gaining her own sense of PERSONAL POWER regardless of what he does...

Again I say..Caren has never actually done PLAN B...



ark, are you saying that the DISTANCING done in PLAN B does not have value? A major factor is the WS not getting his/her ENs met by the BS.

Caren, my thought is that your WH will miss you and crave you if you actually accomplish PLAN B. Otherwise, I see him continuing to be enabled..without suffering...

I BELIEVE THE SUFFERING RESULTS IN THE WS' MOTIVATION TO CHANGE.

What would be his motivation to change?

He is on such a gutter level, having cursed Caren unacceptably IMO in front of his own daughter. Didn't he call you a HO or some such thing, Caren? I was horrified by that. Counseling will not work for him, IMO. He needs to SUFFER THE COMPLETE LOSS OF CAREN..That's my view and what I am saying...

You see, I did several attempted PLAN Bs and then was finally able to GO COMPLETELY DARK..blocking off all contact with me (with MM's support and assistance)... what worked for us is for my FWH to petrified at the thought of losing me FOREVER...

This morning he had to leave to go on a business trip. He was kissing my back as I was sleeping and hugging me..He didn't want to leave me....

This man craves and desires, Caren. IMO, he needs to fear losing her.

He does not RESPECT, Caren. He thinks that he can control her and he can and does.

I still say do PLAN B, Caren...but only when you are ready and able to pull it off for sure....

I don't think that Carens husband has any interest in embracing fidelity...

he has had oportunity after oportunity to do so...

he doesn't value it...

and plan B will just look like a tactic of someone forcing him to do or be something...
and he will use that against them...
while embracing the drama of someone controlling him

that's why I say go "plan B in his face"...

watch what he does
do not react

the truth is in his actions....

and then if it were me..
I would be done with such a creature...
if he does not value marriage on his own with caren beside him
without plan B...

then he does not value marriage at all......

I don't believe he does.....

why plan B him in to a corner to falsely value it..

ARK

I see what you are saying, ark..

But it doesn't follow the MB SYSTEM...

And I think that Caren should give the PLAN a real try...

My opinion...

She certainly can....

I'm not saying it won't work.....

it can ...

In fact it very may well work but I think he will meet her criteria...

then blame her forever.....

you are correct that it doesn't follow the marriage building plan..

but lets say for the sake of arguement and the plan..

doing plan B now without a previos real Plan A...isn't following the program either....

this could be seen as an emotional knee jerk reaction to the recent drama...

what should she write in the plan b letter that he hasnt' heard over and over....

if it was me I would be done with plan a and b..

I would have a talk and tell him all my expectations of what I want in a marriage...and expect from MY spouse...I wouldn't mention expectation of him..I take it globally

I ARK want a marriage where blah blah blah occurs...
that's the only type of marriage I accept
PERIOD....

and I would sit back and SEE if he gives a flying fig ..

I wouldn't DATE someone who played me like this...and I sure as heck wouldn't be married to someone like this...

I can be wrong...
but I have lost patience with too much waffling...

his actions define him..and his actions have consistantly done so...

is he stupid
is he daft

or is he willing to let his whole life be a game..

life's too short for me...

but
caren knows him better
if she thinks total darkness will work...then she should definitly do it...but I think she should plan total darkness for 3-4 months...no matter what he says he will do meet or change.....

ARK

ark you said:



This is kind of OT regarding, Caren...but it does speak to developing PERSONAL POWER.

In my own personal recovery, I've been working on living a RESPECTFUL LIFE, being RESPECTFUL of others actions and opinions that may differ than mine. In other words, I very well may feel differently than Caren does about her H..what I would or would not tolerate..However, I respect her right to make that choice. I am struggling to focus on helping her with the MB PLAN without making my own judgments...

You also said:



You see, IMO, this would be on him...his failure..his loss..to not take this as an opportunity to grow...

Caren will know that she has done all that she can possibly do..or what she has chosen to do regardless of what he may think...



I think Caren has done some good PLAN As...yes plural...



YES!! Caren, take what we say and do what YOU think is BEST for YOU and YOUR marriage....

IMO, that would be a great accomlishment for Caren..TO STICK WITH A PLAN and DO IT....

I agree with THIS PLAN if you can do it...only if you can do it...

MONTHS OF NO CONTACT..regardless of what he does or says...

Point taken, and I believe you are right.......PLAN B with MONTHS (Not weeks, Not Days) of DARKNESS.

Don't you think another Plan B letter would be redundant? I was thinking of going ahead, doing the meeting thing, telling him what I need from *a* marriage......I guess that takes the blame out of it a little, tell him that he has my previous letters, and that my needs are still the same and he can refer to those letters if and when he decides that he wants to reconcile this marriage.......and then go dark......and disregard any little overtures. I will ABSOLUTELY post anything he says because I need you guys to tell me what to do........he has a way of pulling on my heart strings, with things like the picture of the wedding ring.

You see, I was a little freaked out when he was acting MAD at me when I was trying to set up the meeting, he never acts like that.......but I suppose it's akin to the way the WS gets mad when you expose, I just didn't recognize it as such. Or possibly just another tactic to control me (Probably more likely).

So.................Plan B letter or No Plan B letter???

***And I will be scraping up pennies to file on him if I need to do that.

I'm a little worried that I'm about to reach my breaking point........since this isn't making me cry, it isn't making me wig out........does that mean I'm losing love??? Does that mean my love bank is coming dangerously close to going in the negative???? I think it may.

God Bless,

-Caren

Helloooooo anyone out there?? LOL

God Bless,

-Caren

U are not crying because you have already shed tears for this scenario. U are headed into the anger phase again and seem t/b scared t/d so.

Go there. But go with a plan. Plan B? If you need it. Make the plan to make u survive. When he tries to contact you, you set the rules for how you want him to come back.... it may surprise you that you don't want him back as is. You shouldn't. U and your family are better than that.

take care,
L.

I've been thinking and this is my opinion about the letter...

I wrote more than one letter because my H is a letter/card sort of person. He keeps all of his cards and letters...reads cards..and remembers what is said in the letters that I have written to him. So strategically, a letter was necessary for my H. He memorized my Plan B letters and repeated back verbatim, on occasion, what I had said...

Also, ark made a good point that he may see this as some sort of REVENGE and hold it against you or feel like he is being forced, etc...

So why not spell it out simply and MAKE IT VERY CLEAR FOR HIS FOGGY BRAIN.....

The "I LOVE YOU part" ... the "I WILL NO LONGER BE PART OF THIS TRIANGLE part"and the "GET RID OF THE OW FOREVER" part...I can't see how this could HURT your situation..

REDUNDANCY could be necessary and helpful to a foggy brain...



This is exactly why I am encouraging PLAN B for you...You FREAK out about him acting MAD? Why? It should not matter to you what he says or does..he is a WH to the zillionth degree...



I don't think your love bank is going into negative. I'm hoping this means that you are being resolved not to take this crap anymore...that he has crossed a line that you had drawn in the sand..that you are GETTING STRONGER..READY FOR BATTLE..and this will be difficult for you, Caren...

Okay.....here's 1st draft of Plan B letter.............let the shredding begin:

Dear Mark-

You know that I love you with all of my heart. I have loved you since the first day I met you, and I love you still.

I love you, but I am unable to accept our marriage in it's current state. I know that you say that you and the other woman are just friends, but this friendship jeopardizes our family, and I can no longer be a part of this triangle. The other woman cannot be a part of our lives, she has to be out of our lives forever.

I am not telling you these things because I want to tell you what to do or what to say, the choice is completely yours.

I have discovered through this whole ordeal that I cannot control you, nor would I want to. I can only control myself.

I want you to do the things that would make our marriage work because you want to, not because I'm telling you to.

It was never my intention to "tell you what to do", merely to tell you what I needed from you in order to feel safe.

I haven't felt safe for a very long time.

I continue to respect my husband, the man I married. The man that always provided for his family. The man that would bring me flowers just because he loved me. The man who put his family above everything. I was always proud to call that man my husband.

If there is ever a time when you feel like you would like to really make this marriage work, then I would be interested in talking to you about this, but I would need you to show me that you really value our marriage and our family above all else.

You have received many letters like this from me, so I am sure that I don't need to make another list of things.

Each time I get hurt, I can feel my love for you slipping away, so I need to protect myself and the love that I still have left.

You will always be able to speak to Brooklyn, you may have her on your scheduled weekends.

I, however will not be able to see you or speak to you.

I hope you understand, and I hope that someday you'll understand that everything I've been doing is to save our family.

I will always love you,


Caren

Too much love and too much 'I'.

L.

Just my opinion of the Plan B letter you posted. Weigh it against the other feedback you get:

1. He's heard 90% of the stuff you are saying here, and he's reacted to it in the past with anger because it makes him feel 'controlled'.

2. Don't tell him you will always love him, this is likely not true. We always feel that way at the moment, but the truth is the love will fade with time if you end up divorced. He doesn't need to hear you will always... he needs to understand that you and your love will go away if he continues down this path.

3. Overall too much detail. If I was to read it from my wife I'd get defensive... comes across a bit like a lecture. The intent is very good, Caren, but the wayward spouse reacts to this stuff like an angry teenager.