Also, we're not really speaking right now, only through email. Should I email this, or try to get a hold of him. He won't answer the phone when I call. This all sounds so nuts. He won't answer the phone, like I'm a leech. I feel like I'm begging when I tell him these things. He's never stated his place and what he wants; maybe he doesn't know, but it makes this that much more difficult. He's never said anything like ' I would like to be married, but ...'. He is a black hole right now.

I also don't know if I'm willing to accept him back without a word from him about recovering a relationship with me. That is how we started out last time. I asked him to come home, he did, but with no real intention of building a M. So, no matter what I tried, he really didn't work with me. I don't know how willing I am to take that crap anymore.

The WS tells your 4 yr old son that mommy and daddy don't love each other? That's cruel, abusive and manipulating.

Go and straighten that up with your little one. Give him lots of hugs and reassure him of your love.

Mine was 6 when d/d hit. Within a few months he wrote a 4 sentence letter to his dad basically telling him off in the most exquisite and concise manner I have ever seen. It didnt' stop the A but it was instrumental in bringing it down.

The OW in our case tried to convince the WS that his son w/b better in a single parent family. The WS even hated that thought but lived that lie. I learned about MB in the interim, learned to plan A & B, reverse babbled to keep my sanity and give the Ws all the misery I could so my H could have the strength to escape. We went through several false recoveries and yes, I was ready for the D. Yearned for it in fact but when the Xws made progress, I was willing to see how much, then would up the stakes for his return. He eventaully met those conditions but it took a while. D/d was over 5 1/2 years ago. True recovery started in August 2003.

Pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience. Let your mind and heart get in sync. Learn about your legal rights, secure your finances, setup your immediate support group, identify and implement your personal and M boundaries and learn to reverse babble.

You don't have to accept him as is. He needs to ask your forgiveness. Don't stoop to the level of a WS. Time will wear him down. U got lots of it until u r ready to end it.

L.

Oh, Orchid, thank you sooo much, I will read up on reverse babble, I need it. I'm in for the long haul, but cannot live with him like this. I've told him that I want our M and will work with him, but only when he can commit to M and MC. Sounds like my H is trapped in something, either another EA or sadness over the loss of the OW from previous A. He isn't talking. It's awful to know that he told my most DS that we didn't like eachother right now. YUCHK!

Mimi, thank you for keeping this thread going and all of the support and advice. I have been using it, and will see what the results are later tonight. I've told him that I dont' want to end our M.

should I call some of his friends or family to find out how he has been acting? This may help me to decide if H is WH again. I never really spoke to his friends the last time, but when it all went down, not one of them had a clue he was having an A, no one knew.

Hints, advice, etc.

Also, when he comes to pick up my son, how should I act with him? Should I be really cordial and welcoming and then send him on his way with a smile, or should I be short, sweet and to the point?

ooo, and another thing!

H has Tae Kwon Do (TKD) practice every Mon/Wed. My BF brought up the question -- Are you sure he is actually going to TKD? I have already thought of this before, but he has been really reliable in calling and letting me know where he is and when he is on his way home. Should I question him about this?

PLAN A. Have you read up on PLAN A in the book SURVIVING AN AFFAIR or on this site.

By all means, begin SNOOPING to determine if he is a WH again...KNOWLEDGE IS POWER...

I don't think you want to be direct with them about this, though. Sort of like Columbo, the TV detective...tactful about what you are trying to discover...

Mimi,
I don't know how to begin to 'discover'. He has been very closed off. Do I look into a detective? We both work, and I'm left with the full time care of DS, so I don't have much free time. His cell phone is in his name and I have no access to cell bill; he has never been open with who he talks to and when, which leads me to believe it's happening again. I have two ideas of 'who' he may be with, either former OW or 'friend' from work (who now works elsewhere, but they IM and email and talk on phone). I have asked that he end this R with 'friend' and he, of course, says that they are just that, and that her H knows they are 'friends'. I've been suspicious about this one for a few months now. He has not made concessions or even admitted that an A is wrong, much less devastating the family you are supposed to love the most.
Now I'm pissed again. GEEZ, I'm not much of a quitter, but I feel like LBing and kicking his lilly little [censored]! I'm so sick and tired of all of this sh*t! I'm a spiritual person (non affiliated to any particular religion) and I feel like my soul is being kicked, as it angers me that my son may feel the same.

I have read SAA, and do understand Plan A. As many have said, it goes against what I feel inside. Do I ask pointed questions about any OW (calmly and consisely)? How do I snoop when I don't have phone records, emails, he lives away from home? I'm ready to do the work, and set real boundaries (I was a doormat the last time around, and couldn't seem to change the dynamic once it was in place). He just seems resigned. Maybe this is true of many waywards. HEEEELP! and thank you

temp

Do you think you will be able to change your mindset off of him and what he needs to do and onto yourself?

That's essential.

I began to work on MY PLAN without regard to what my H did or what I wanted him to do.

If you continue to focus on him, you will continue to become FRUSTATED and then ANGRY because you cannot CONTROL another person.

Were you ever happily married?

Does your H have a history of inappropriate friendships or other affairs?

I ask this because you imply that he has NEVER been open..

Temp and Mimi, can you please check my post, and offer some help? I don't want to go to PLan B if I can help it!

My radar is going off here - and in my opinion, I would not invite him to come home. Mimi, forgive me for taking a different stance here, but I am concerned that D day was a year ago, she has been doing a sort of plan A ever since then, and still this man says refuses to do anything towards recovery. I seriously think that if she invites him to come back home, she will be nothing more than a doormat. I also think plan B is going to be necessary very soon, and worry that if she invites him to come home now, and then needs to go into Plan B in another week, she is going to look like a flake.
Anyone else have any thoguhts about this?

I also suspect that he had one foot out the door all ready. She may have said the words "please leave" before he said "I'm outta here" but he was going to say the words anyway. When she said "go" and he said "Ok", I beleive that was a sign that he had all ready mentally packed his bags. I think he was being cold towards her to get her to "kick him out". Just my opinion.

And this business about him having another female friend, who is married, that he talks to, IM's, and emails? that is just not OK. This man needs to learn that married men do not have friendships with another mans wife. Period. I understand W/D, addiction, etc, but this man seems to be making a lifestyle choice that says "I will continue to have private conversations with another mans wife, even if it destroys my own wife". That is just not OK. if she continues to accept his disrespectful behavior, she will set herself up for a lifetime of this crap.

I am thinking of the book "Love Must Be Tough" right now.

Temp - hang in there. Time is definately on your side. This man is in for a huge fall. Without a doubt.

Mimi,

I had a happy M at prior to having my DS. We had a VERY happy M for the first 4 years. In looking back and seeing more clearly, I can say that we were more like friends the year before DS was born, but we still showed lots of affection and went out together and had recreational time together. He's a very self involved person, it seems. He has always been selfish with his money and time, but he spent both on me and him. Now he is just selfish with everything. He doesn't want to help, he feels like he is entitled to all of his free time, and his W and DS put him out.

Prior to working in the current environment (many women about), H was faithful and seemingly happen. He worked with mostly men in a very 'manly' environment prior to his current position. We would discuss things regarding what we wanted, and we were very open. He has had a troubled relationship with his natural mother, and she passed away last year. He hasn't really reacted one way or the other to that. He just sort of thinks 'oh well, that's that'.

I am working on MY recovery now; I am just asking about what I should know about him. I am working toward a mindset that allows me to focus on my daily life and take care of my future (assets, financially and physically). I'm sort of unsure as to how to proceed and still leave the door open for recovery. It seems natural, right now, to shut him out and move on; there is a part of me that wants my M to work and a part of me that doesn't want to accept him how he is. I know I need to concentrate on me, and I guess I need to accept what has been done to me and move on, but I want to retaliate and hurt him too. I know that I will not, and I will move on.

I guess my question is, how do you move on, but save a M at the same time? I'm ready to feel calm inside again. I feel that the consequences of not working on our M and shutting down (or having A's) is that you cannot have this life, as you do not put it first or protect it. I feel totally exposed when he is in the house right now. I'm not trying to punish, I'm trying to let him go about with what his choices are, and learn what mine should be. He just left, so I'm working up to letting him go. Oh, now I'm just drooling and sputtering. A swift kick to my Chakra's might help. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I NEVER felt this way about my H.

I can't relate to this type of thinking so may find it hard to help you.



You can't WANT TO MOVE ON and WANT TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE at the same time.

Working on yourself is good for you and your marriage if your H chooses to work on the marriage with you.



You seem emotionally disconnected from your H temp.

I'm still not sure if you love him..if you really want to reconcile...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

How about changing your thread name to ANGRY BS NEEDS HELP?

I don't want you to think that I am judging you negatively for having your point of view.

I just can't relate to it and I'm not sure if I can be as helpful as is necessary for you at this stage in the game.

I think you need to do PLAN A but I maybe in error.

I'm not sure how to help you get to the PLAN A mindset.

Here is the point I want to emphasize. It is good that you want your M to work. Taht would be the best possible outcome for everyone involved, especially your son. But you do NOT need to accept him how he is. in fact, you shouldn't accept him how he is now.

I have no doubt that his moodiness these past few months is do to the "withdrawl" from OW (who is probably OW#1, as it sounds like there may be an OW#2). But when his moddiness lingers for so long, without even a passing comment about working on his M, I think it is time for him to see what color the grass really si on the other side. At this point - he is not interested in being married - he is carrying on another R with another mans wife.

I have no doubt that the day will come when this man will have regrets. No doubt at all. He will wish he had not left his wife and son to pursue a dead end relationship. But he needs to reach a point where he decides that he is not going to pursue another mans wife EVER AGAIN. He came back home this last time to have someone cook, clean, and do his laundry. Temp, it sounds like you did a fairly good plan A. At this point, in my opinion, it is time to say "I love you, I want to have a great M with you, but I have a boundary that needs to be enforced. That boundary is that u I expect my H to be faithful, and to protect me from harm. I hope that man is you - I hope you can step up and be that H for me. Until you can do that, I need to distance myself from you."

That is what the Plan B letter is all about. Saying to him that you Love him, you can forgive, and you are anxious to do the hard work of building an even better M, but only after he "forsakes all others"

I want to reconcile; retalitation is the wrong statement. I do not want to hurt him. I want to stop being hurt by him. I feel completely shut out by him. He doesn't start conversations with me, he doesn't touch me, we don't spend time together. I want to talk to him, but he doesn't respond, literally. I sent him an email recently, when I started to notice him creating distance, and said that I will listen to him and what he needs, no judgements, only love. What are your needs? We can work this out, I want you to be happy, as well as me, and I want a M with you, a partnership, happiness together and safety. I want us to have a fulfilling life together. I want our family to be fulfilled together. He has told me every time I ask that he feels life is a white/black thing. That when things don't work, they just don't work. They either should work or not. Marriage should be happy; when it's not, is it really saveable (him speaking).

He will not respond to my queries. It's as if he would be happy, if he could just live in his house without all the 'others' (me, son, dogs).

I want to move on together, I want to move on from this rut, this place of discontent. I think I am emotionally disconnected, I'll bow to that; I don't want that, I want to feel safe and free to love him and not have him give up. I try touching him, hugging/kissing, saying I love you, emailing him just to say "Hi, how's your day going, hopefully great!" He doesn't respond in kind. I think he is waiting for a good Plan A from me, to show him that I am worth coming home to.

I guess I am pushing him, to some extent. I would love for him to tell me these things, but he does not talk. I recently asked about his A and asked for a timeline. I did not speak during his recitation of what happened and when. I said I needed to know so that I could feel more comfortable with his choice to come home. The OW ended the A, and he always says, "I came home too soon". It puts me on edge. I love him. I just handled all of this sooo badly from the beginning, I don't know how to proceed.

I honestly don't know how to get my H to come home. I want us to be happy. I would be lying if i said I wasn't scared.

oops! I think I keep cross-posting.

Temp - this comment:


needs to go right out the window. this would not help you - at all. And let me tell you something I learned, that you do NOT need to seek revenge. it will take care of itself. Period. the best thing you can do right now, is be the best person you can be. the best mom, friend, sister, daughter, etc. Your H is going to suffer the consequences of his own actions. For sure. If you try to seek revenge, then you will suffer the consequences of your own poor choice as well. Live the best life you can right now. Love your son. Do volunteer work. excercise. Do all of the good things you can think of. Focus on positives instead of negatives. And you will see your H's bad choices start to haunt him.

in my case - the things that happened to my WxH were far, far worse than anything I could have dreamed up.
His truck broke down (it was only 2 years old) and needed $2500 worth of repairs. The OW had gotten him a secret cell phone, on a plan with hers, then racked up $900 worth of charges on it that he had to pay. OW eventually kicked him out and got a restraining order against him - not because he was violent, but just because she worked at the court house, and could do it. Because of the restraining order, he was not allowed to carry a gun, which meant he could not go hunting with his buddies.
I could go on forever.
But I did not speak poorly about him, I did not try to seek revenge, I just lived my life, loved my kids, and took care of myself. In the end - that mad him look even worse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Using MB principles - what would you say were the contributing factors, that left him vulnerable to an A?

From Orchid I get this advice,

"You don't have to accept him as is. He needs to ask your forgiveness. Don't stoop to the level of a WS. Time will wear him down. U got lots of it until u r ready to end it."

Mimi,
this is what I want to do. I don't want to punish him, but I do want a show that he is ready to do the work required to rebuild a M. I've read that a WS needs to SHOW that they are repentent; that WS is ready to really try. As I have said, he has never been like this. He has a sense of entitlement to his A (I was unhappy, so I went to find my happiness). Maybe you are right, and I should apologize and ask him to come home. Just coming home has not proven to be fruitful for us. We had made very slight progress by the time he left, and I feel maybe he is still in withdrawal. I want him to come home. I have looked at my pain from all angles. My ego is not hurt, but my heart is because I DO love him, and was blindsided and devastated. He was my best friend, my best lover, and he cut me open and watched me bleed. that is why I am so afraid. What message am I sending him to accept him back without asking for him to work to be with me. I'm a doormat, so come on home, keep things from me, do whatever YOU need to be happy. I'll try to figure out what your EN's are, as you think all of the MB's stuff is hooey. You think me taking AD's is a cop out. You don't think MC will help.

This is what I've lived in, as many here have, so I'm asking WHAT DO I DO NOW? I'm obviously fallable, and not perfect in this, and I don't expect H to feel comfortable, at first, but I do expect commitment to TRY recovery. Is this wrong?

Womanoffaith05,
I remember you! You've given me some great advice in the past. Between you and Orchid, I feel stronger in my stance to not sit back and ask H to hit me again, and this time put some stank on it! I'm so tired of trying. I may not be perfect, but I have shown an openness and he has shown very little improvement. I hate the image of me as a doormat, and that is all I see right now. I get the same advice from my friends; his behavior is unacceptable! They all are aware of the last year of [email]h@ll[/email] I've been through, and know that I want to recover my M, but I can't continue to do it like this.

Mimi,
I think that you have valid points about softening and allowing him to come home, but that is not without real boundaries and giving from him. I can't do that again. I love my Husband, I appreciate him and do miss him, but I don't miss who he is right now. He is manipulative and downright mean sometimes, and that is not the man I've know these many years (15+). I do not deserve this treatment, and I believe that the burden of proof is on him.

Temp

Read. Apply. Learn and grow. Know that you can't control the WS beast in him. Put distance between you and the beaast.

Now here's my suggestion, not necessarily MB but it worked for me: Plan A your spouse and plan B the WS. Learn to tell when u r dealing with the WS vs the spouse. After a while (since I changed the locks on my doors) I would stop the WS at the door and ask which character was he in. If he copped an attitude, he was not allowed in the house. So he HAD to learn t/b nice. Then he was allowed in the home and dealing with him was much easier. The minute the Ws attitude came out (which it did), he was told to leave. This took several instances but he eventually learned.

Patience.....lots of patience. Now that's love.

L.