Is it possible to have an <intellectual> discussion about style and language as we administer to the needs of this forum? I know that I have personally "stirred the pot" on occasion....used inflamatory language....been moderated a couple of times <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. Without creating a war....can we have a discussion about <purposefully> high-charged language for shock value that is designed to press the buttons (especially for FWS) and how effective/ineffective they are? Can we honestly discuss the pros and cons of *shock* language without getting defensive or making a stink worthy of moderation and lockdown?

That's your mission....if you choose to accept it.

Discuss the issue without making it personal, individual or disrespectful. Between me, mel, pep and noodle (oh and wat and orchid should prolly be in there too)....I'm seeing some great minds, lots of experience, strong personalities, loads of posts and wisdom....surely this is possible......maybe lol.

I'd like to ask the very difficult question that many people raise....is there a different *standard* for those of us who have been here a long time and donated so much time...than there is for newer posters? Have we pushed the envelope of respect in trying to make our points? Do we become callous and impatient sometimes after so many years of babbling, fogged, occassionally unrepentent WSs? Do even *we* sometimes need a "reality check" and find we have things to "learn" about how to "reach others when we've spent so much time here?

I don't know about the rest of you....but I sometimes find myself weary, impatient, and jaded after so long. I wonder if sometimes....we don't get OTD....old timer's disease?

I love each of you.....every one....respect all of you....respect myself!! But sometimes....maybe we all need to do some soul searching, some recalibration....it comes with the territory of looking at this complete crap every day and dealing with the destruction and tragedy of it. More and more....I wonder how important it is to take time off....and I've been doing that. The result....is usually more compassion and respectful language. This stuff just weighs you down after a while....yanno?

I want to stay fresh and focussed....but not obsessed or jaded....and it's not easy. Sometimes I read my responses and go *yikes* omg....okay....breathe.

I'm not apologizing....because for the rest of you guys...y'all just have to know that I'm doing my best and I'm not infallible. Those of us who stick around here....take alot of criticism....it's not all fun and validating. It takes a special person to stick around here after working through our own marriages and help the rest of you guys.....especially when you don't like what we have to say or how we say it. But I'm okay with hearing that maybe I've gone too far. Maybe I'm tired. Maybe I'm disgusted and discouraged.....and it shows....okay. It's part of territory....and I hope y'all appreciate my honesty because it's a pretty selfless job to keep trying to help some of you guys "get" it when you spend YEARS floundering. Sometimes I want to just SCREAM!!! I'm not always going to be effective....and sometimes....I'm going to suck at it.

The truth is....I really do care....and my intent is to help not harm.

What's your definition of "old timer's disease"? Is it real? Does being here a long time change the way people post? Does having lots of posts come with "entitlement" issues?

I can only own my personal OTD issues ....

and frankly

ours has been such a great recovery

I sometimes "forget" what it was like while still ~in the soup~

and, I surmise that our advanced recovery is both revered and despised here on MB

it at once makes me a "know it all"

~and~

a well to draw from

it's all good cheri'

every day is something new hidden amongst the same'ol'same'ol

Pep

I've found the *shock value* to be useful many times ....

when the OM is refered to as "my OM" ... I said to one lady >>> "Whenever you are tempted to refer to him as *my OM* .... stop yourself and refer to him as *Betty's husband* .... using the wife's first name.

the ACTUAL issue is this >>> "former" waywards advocating NON-exposure and "limited contact"

it's bullcrap

you & I know it's bullcrap


and it is frustrating to be drawn into strawman arguements about saying "bullcrap"

when EVERYONE who has truely RECOVERED knows this for a fact that ...

EXPOSURE and NO CONTACT WORK

"recovery" without both exposure and NC is like a jet held together with wires, chewing gum and stubbornness

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

It's probably possible but I doubt that consensus will be reached.

I have daily seen instances in which terminology goes unchallenged or even objected to because no one felt it was aimed at them personally or the collection of readers happened to be in agreement with it..conversely even a carefully worded attack still reads like an attack to me so it's all subjective.

I've also seen posts locked because the discussion in general was getting hot..but did not include any particularly notable language..in fact that same language is unchallenged in other posts a plenty at the same time.

There will never be board unity.

We are inherently disrespectfull creatures whether we like to admit it or not..the people who object to one style of posting believe that the person doing it is *wrong* and should change and do it differently.

This post is just more of the same.. though it's carefully worded..it delivers a message to me personally that there isn't *really* a desire for discussion, that the issue isn't *really* something you haven't already come to a clear decision on and are now using this approach to bring me into agreement with you by sympathizing with frustration that you imagine I feel while presenting your case and suggesting some time off so that I too can see the error of my ways.

What's respectfull about that?

Personally I'd be less offeded if you just came right out and said..I don't like what you said and I don't like how you said it..I think you should go sit in the naughty chair until you learn some manners.

We have a different motivation in posting you see..I am not here to help [Would you be offended if I said that by merely adopting this stance you are placing yourself in a position of authority and superiority which means that you perceive that the people you are posting to are not your equals? How can any "help" you offer be anything BUT disrespectfull when built on this foundation no matter how appealling the delivery? ] ..I am here due to personal interest in the issues and discussions.

As for shock language. I agree with ML..I think that the actions/events are shocking, the language descriptive and accurate. For myself and I suspect for others who express themselves as I do..the dress up game is absolutely just as offensive.

Some people will embrace it..some will turn away in disgust oe even anger because what really is in conflict is core beliefs and values..those are what determine the thoughts that lead to the words.

ummmmmmmmmm...........

.......

what a menu you require, Star* !!!

in fact .... sounds like a very boring conversation!

Usually, risking disrespect is how THE MOST difficult conversations get started ... a brave step out onto the plank overlooking the abyss of facing one's self!

in fact

I find that what is mostly perceived as board disrespect is not real anyway & is usually a result of the medium limitations ....

and to be honest

board disrespect is small change in the currency of life ... but these conversations are good practice for the meek who are used to a life of conflict avoiding.

In my opinion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Interresting -
As many opinions as there are people.

In the early days, I read almost non stop. Tens of thousands of posts.

Sometimes I think people need to shock less. Sometimes more.

Note I said "I think."
I do not know.

I think God uses the least harmful and lest intrusive way to bring us to our senses that he possibly can. Often it is, that we won't come, even when he uses harsh methods.

People are not as gifted as God. They do the best they can.

I wonder if Star is asking if sometimes we can and should do better?


BTW - I am just thinking "out loud" so to speak........ my mind is wandering.

There are different styles of posting. Sometimes one can reach out and be more effective than another.

Sometimes people are offended, and they leave. Sometimes they "get it" and they stay.

So it is in other areas of life. AS has been said, I'm not sure there will ever be agreement. I learn from reading your (all of you) comments though. It refines, me, gets me to think, and I think it improves me in the end.

Thanks.

SS

Not my thread, and I am not invited, however I wanted to submit this for consideration in the discussion of your topic. It is part of the rules in the largest MP group on yahoo and helps us keep things much more reasonable than before it was sent out every month.

Strong talk is OK - but veracity, vociferousness and vocabulary need to be checked before posting.

Something you assume may not be factual.

Anyway ... here is the bit ...

-----------------------------------------------


PLEASE PLEASE, PLEASE. Do not jump all over people who write in, seeming to be selfish and caught up in their own version of honest, kind, victim or whatever they paint themselves. We will do better to gain peoples' confidence and do their spouse a favor if we are not mean or vociferous, but direct and honest in our replies.

Absolutely no cuss words or name-calling. I.E. slut ho etc and no writing everything in caps, this means shouting. This is a serious marriage problem list for adults and this kind of childish name-calling will not be tolerated. Anyone doing this will be removed. So, if you are mad when you write, read your email three times, before you send it. If you find you have got carried away and hit "send" before you realized how mean your email is, email me privately and I will not remove you the first time. I know it is easy to get carried away when a post pushes your buttons, I have done it myself, but we do want to guard against this kind of outburst. After all, we could be the one on the receiving end; we never know how anyone else is feeling or how our outbursts may affect him or her. If it is a mean, cruel spouse they could be so ticked off that they go and take it out on the one we are trying to help.

-----------------------------------------------------

SP

Hee..childish namecalling

Somehow they missed that labelling someones behavior as childish *IS* namecalling.

It's kind of like saying..see what we did right here? Don't do that..because it won't be tolerated..except when it is...like now.

noodle,

There will never be board unity.

Well....that would be boring wouldn't it? I'm surely not advocating that....nor desire unity....it's controversy/differing styles and viewpoints that is the strength of this medium.

We are inherently disrespectfull creatures whether we like to admit it or not..the people who object to one style of posting believe that the person doing it is *wrong* and should change and do it differently.

That's certainly one way to look at it noodle. I personally think I'm mostly respectful, and don't mind adjusting my style somewhat when I'm not reaching someone. However, I've never believed that a different strategy is "wrong". Sometimes it less effective....or more effective....not right or wrong.

This post is just more of the same.. though it's carefully worded..it delivers a message to me personally

<personally> It's not personal unless you choose to be offended noodle.

that there isn't *really* a desire for discussion, that the issue isn't *really* something you haven't already come to a clear decision on and are now using this approach to bring me into agreement with you by sympathizing with frustration that you imagine I feel while presenting your case and suggesting some time off so that I too can see the error of my ways.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> You're mistaken about what I want, think or feel noodle....or wish to accomplish. I'm sorry you feel this way....but I'm not responsible for your interpretation or assumptions.

What's respectfull about that?

Nothing.

Personally I'd be less offeded if you just came right out and said..I don't like what you said and I don't like how you said it..I think you should go sit in the naughty chair until you learn some manners.

Noodle....God knows I'm not the LEAST BIT shy. If I meant that....I would have said that. I'm willing to accept the fact that you feel offended....even though I never intended to offend you.

We have a different motivation in posting you see..I am not here to help[Would you be offended if I said that by merely adopting this stance you are placing yourself in a position of authority and superiority which means that you perceive that the people you are posting to are not your equals? How can any "help" you offer be anything BUT disrespectfull when built on this foundation no matter how appealling the delivery? ]

Nah...offense is taken and not given. I'm not easily offended and I think the above statement is crap anyway. I'm not better because I try to help....I'm just here like everyone else. But I also don't want to harm anyone either and I'm willing to accept my own fallibility and bias.

..I am here due to personal interest in the issues and discussions.

So you have no desire to help? You do help....that much I have seen. I think alot of people find help in the things you say. So let me get this straight.....there's something wrong with me....or I think I'm better than everyone else because I'm motivated by a desire to help? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> The fact that I think I might be able to offer some help makes me condescending? I would be a better person if I just was interested in the issues?.....wow....I can watch the news for issues and discussions. Why can't you discuss this without attacking me?

As for shock language. I agree with ML..I think that the actions/events are shocking, the language descriptive and accurate.

I know chere....we've had this argument before and created a great uproar on the board LOL. The question is whether shocking language to describe shocking actions is always/sometimes/all the time....productive in getting the message across. I've seen it work. I've seen it fail. I've seen it motivated by a desire to help....and I've seen it motivated by other reasons.

....but how For myself and I suspect for others who express themselves as I do..the dress up game is absolutely just as offensive.

I don't like "dressing up" any better than anyone else....at the same time....I've seen everyone mentioned deliver difficult truth with AND without high charged language that inflames the board. I think that's worth exploring.

Some people will embrace it..some will turn away in disgust oe even anger because what really is in conflict is core beliefs and values..those are what determine the thoughts that lead to the words.

Core beliefs or unresolved grief and anger?.....or worse....is there a different standard that Old Timers get to exploit a bit? Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. Hey, I'm a member of this group....and I'm not immune....I get triggered on this board sometimes....fed up and impatient with foggy rationalizations just like everyone else. Is there a valid argument being addressed?

pep,

what a menu you require, Star* !!!

in fact .... sounds like a very boring conversation!

Usually, risking disrespect is how THE MOST difficult conversations get started ... a brave step out onto the plank overlooking the abyss of facing one's self!

Okay....be disrespectful....take things personally, attack individuals LOL....that sounds really interesting if we want to have the same boring discussion that's been done over and over and over. There's tons of threads to discuss things THAT way LOL....just look around. I was hoping for something less explosive......silly me.

in fact

I find that what is mostly perceived as board disrespect is not real anyway & is usually a result of the medium limitations ....

and to be honest

board disrespect is small change in the currency of life ... but these conversations are good practice for the meek who are used to a life of conflict avoiding.

I'm not really talking about how other people percieve your posts...or mine....but rather how *we* percieve them....and how being here a long time might affect our posting styles, compassion, language etc.

still seeking,

I wonder if Star is asking if sometimes we can and should do better?

Yes chere <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />....that is exactly what I'm asking all of us OTs about....Have we stopped learning? Are we unapproachable? Are we above the rules? Can we do better? Folks who have been here a long time sometimes have a powerful presence....and a greater opportunity to both heal or harm.....are we mindful of that?

Funny - Lol I guess I see it every month. I hadn't even thought of how it was written. I look briefly and remember the intent.

At the least it is a monthly attempt to avoid exactly what happens on here with unfailing regularity and by and large - it works.

Sp <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ya know......I don't believe that coddling and hugging necessarily works, I mean if someone's really down, of course I try to make them feel better, but I think there is a huge use for *shock value* around here.

These new BS's (And some of the older one's, like...ummm...me) need to be told how it is, they don't need you to mince words. I believe the people that have recovered are an INVALUABLE resource here, and we all benefit from their wisdom.

Now I'm going to address Pep specifically......



Pep, that doesn't make you a "know it all", Knowing it all does <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

-Caren

As an uninvited guest to this particular discussion (though I am a crusty oldtimer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), I would like to share my thoughts.

I began a rather heated debate about harm not too long ago, and in the end, I came to the conclusion that harm is subjective - except in the case of obvious abuse - like being shot, for example, which I believe would harm anyone in the bullets path.

I spoke of the following example: Many years ago my family (my ex, our children in their teens at the time) and I were driving up the Interstate on Christmas night when we were stopped by a massive traffic jam. It took forever to get up the hill and when we did, we pulled off the freeway to a side road to get home. A few others had the same idea so we were moving at a crawl, but faster than the freeway. As we passed the cause of the traffic jam, a horrific accident, I looked over and saw the yellow blanket over a body on the road. I thought, and then said out loud: "That person was alive and now they're dead." My family talked about it for quite awhile that night...

That scene changed my life. The thought that someone was ALIVE and then *snap* is now dead... is profound.

The scene did not bring me harm. In fact, it brought me to a place of understanding that no other scene of it's kind had before or after...

Perhaps another on the same road witnessed the scene... perhaps someone who had lost a loved one in a fatal car accident... perhaps they were triggered that night... perhaps it set back their recovery... perhaps they were harmed.

Perhaps a small child looked over and saw the scene. Perhaps they had nightmares for days, weeks or years. Perhaps they were harmed.

I was not harmed.

Perhaps others were.

A body on the freeway ... a person I never knew... taught me to remember that everything can be taken away in an instant *snap*...

A harsh reality.

There are bodies on the MB highway... and no, it ain't pretty sometimes... but... there are lessons to be learned here... about harm, yes... and about compassion... and about reality...

Sometimes we need to be jolted... and while I don't advocate some of the things I've seen written or said... when I back up and really look at this accident scene... I know that there is something important to be learned.

Thank you for allowing me to share my thoughts...

I doubt I qualify as a board old timer but all the same..

It is your previous position which I assume has not changed with regard to what you term shock language that is the source of my doubt with regard top your intentions.

If it has changed..and you have come to embrace it rather than think it a less than great option..I'd be really suprised..I'd eat my shoes..I'd even publicly recant.

The fact that you *have* a goal makes it less of a discussion that a treatise.

Look at your descriptions..you say that you don't think it's wrong [morally? ethically?]...but perhaps ineffective or not reaching someone.

Really. We have discussed this before..but you know...I don't think I've ever seen you take issue with someone being extremely circumspect and respectfull by your definition of the term and asking them..do you think it's the best way?

You have a preference maybe even an ideal..you admit that you don't always live up to it..but you express that you feel you have performed badly when you don't hit the mark whereas I don't view my time here as a performance at all.

No, I'm not here to help..I'm interested..I'll discuss..but my primary motivation is not reaching people or supporting them.

In order for me to believe that I was qualified to offer help..I would have to act on the paradigm that I know something they do not..this is my own perception and it reflects my own bias..but I do not make an appointment with my doctor to ask him how he's liking the weather..I ask him for his help because he has knowledge and experience that I do not and I need him to tell me what is wrong with me and what to do about it. We are not peers in that relationship.

Being motivated by a desire to help..means that you believe that you are capable of helping..that there is something of value in what you offer..this doesn't mean you think you are better than everyone else.. but it is certainly in stark opposition to my own belief that nothing I post is of inherent value..people can read or not..take it to heart or not..if they are touched..it is merely something that resonates with what they already embraced/knew/experienced and that "help" doesn't really reflect back onto me either well or badly. I cannot create only express..what a person takes away from that has very little to do with me.



Here is something that suprises me..because it seems so out of line with your basic premise and ideals regarding respect and assumptions. You say that you have seen shock language "work" and not work [which assumes again that there was a goal in the first place] and you have seen it motivated by a desire to help and seen it motivated by other reasons..so..how did you determine what motivated it?

Do you think that there is any possibility whatsoever that your own perceptions and biases did not completely dictate what your conclusion was with regard to information you could not possibly have as a certainty [what motivates someone else].

I see this again when you say that unresolved grief and anger rather than differing beliefs and values are at the root of "shock" word choices.

According to your own personal belief system..people behave in X way because of Y [everyone does this BTW] when something is proferred that challenges that belief..we tend to not believe it. So I could tell you until I was blue in the face that I wasn't angry or triggered at all..but you probably wouldn't believe me because that doesn't fit with your expectations of how a nonangry nontriggered person would express themselves.

Do you see now what I mean when I say that disrespect is inherent in human nature..we can BEHAVE respectfully [ie as though we did not have these biases]..we can paint the barn a different color..but our perceptions remain every bit as disrespectfull.

The people we seek out for advice..really only expose us for what we believe..because we knew what they were likely to say before we asked..we have answered our own question..we didn't seek out anyone who would advise differently.

People who call ML or Pep or even me are looking for something very predictable and specific. It isn't that we are old timers [especially not me] but we are well defined even when we don't agree with each other..and they probably don't agree with me now. No one who does not appreciate these traits engages..they seek out people whos beliefs and expressions are more in alignment with what they are receptive to.

I agree with you that you are not responsible for my interpretation or assumptions [or biases]..but by the same logic..neither am I responsible for the interpretations and assumptions of others. In that sense..no word can BE a shock word or incendiary because the word itself has no merit..only the interpretation of it..which is the choice of the individual [except not because they can't step outside of their own experiences]


I'm not offended incidentally, that part about the naughty chair was meant to be a joke but I forgot to put the laughing icon at the end.

Can I discuss this without attacking?

Hard to say as I view the entire theme of the discussion as an attack.

Is there even a remote chance that you will walk away from the discussion thinking..yeah..I need to say more things that I view as incendiary and worry less about how effective or well received it is!

Or..

Is this a dialogue whose goal is to "help" me [and others] see why I should do it differently?

Am I exploring growth in choosing to post differently or changing for changes sake..if it is growth..then where I am at currently is sub par..growthis not a lateral move..if it is change for changes sake..why? Shall we all role play as an experiment?

What would that reveal except how cartoonish our perceptions of others really are?

aaaaahhhhhh



I percieve my posts to be just about right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I percieve your posts to be just about right as well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

and Noodle's too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

and Mel's as well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

and everyone else's posting style is just as it should be <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

all is well

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

There are no uninvited guests on this thread....anyone is free to post. Thanks to all who responded and shared their thoughts.

pep,

when the OM is refered to as "my OM" ... I said to one lady >>> "Whenever you are tempted to refer to him as *my OM* .... stop yourself and refer to him as *Betty's husband* .... using the wife's first name.

I remember this....thought it was great. This is a fantastic example of using *shock* in a positive way.....and you didn't need shocking language or graphic images to make your point either. You managed to be quite blunt, brutally honest....and no coddling in sight.

Caren,

Ya know......I don't believe that coddling and hugging necessarily works, I mean if someone's really down, of course I try to make them feel better, but I think there is a huge use for *shock value* around here.

Everytime this subject is discussed....the argument about coddling and hugging arises. I agree there is plenty of use for shock value...pep's statement above is a great example....but that's a different argument altogether. Noodle mentioned "straw man" arguments where we attack an exaggerated or caricatured version of our opponent's position.....that's really what the "coddling" argument is about....if someone questions language....they're accused of being a "coddler" or not wanting the "truth" even if they agree with the "intent" but not the "delivery". I doubt I'm the only one seeing value in both sides of this argument....or the only one wondering if we've achieved balance or just polarization?

new beginning,

Interesting thoughts and analogy. I'm not sure how subjective I think harm is though....I'll have to think about that. Harm can certainly be a powerful teacher....but not all the lessons are things I'd want folks to learn. There certainly ARE bodies strewn about the MB highway. Affairs create carnage....that's where the real harm comes from. Most people arrive here "bleeding".

noodle,

It is your previous position which I assume has not changed with regard to what you term shock language that is the source of my doubt with regard top your intentions.

If it has changed..and you have come to embrace it rather than think it a less than great option..I'd be really suprised..I'd eat my shoes..I'd even publicly recant.

The fact that you *have* a goal makes it less of a discussion that a treatise.

I'm not sure what any of this means. What previous position? Embrace what? What goal? You've lost me.

agree with you that you are not responsible for my interpretation or assumptions [or biases]..but by the same logic..neither am I responsible for the interpretations and assumptions of others. In that sense..no word can BE a shock word or incendiary because the word itself has no merit..only the interpretation of it..which is the choice of the individual [except not because they can't step outside of their own experiences]

I agree that perception of highly charged, disrespectful or inflamatory language is likely to be different for everyone. I just don't know whether that presupposes there can't be a meaningful discussion about those differences and perceptions that doesn't turn ugly. Why have you decided that I've got some agenda? What could I possibly gain? You've befuddled me.

Can I discuss this without attacking?

Hard to say as I view the entire theme of the discussion as an attack.

Yikes! Why? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I'm sorry you feel attacked. I can remove your name if you'd like?

Is there even a remote chance that you will walk away from the discussion thinking..yeah..I need to say more things that I view as incendiary and worry less about how effective or well received it is!

Or..

Is this a dialogue whose goal is to "help" me [and others] see why I should do it differently?

Okay :lightbulb:....I think I finally understand what you're getting at. Actually, I wasn't thinking either of those things or desiring either outcome. I was thinking it might be refreshing to discuss this topic in a different way....rather than just the ole "coddling vs disrespect" "oldtimers vs newbies" argument that usually ensues. Yikes....there's just so much defensiveness/polarization around this subject.....maybe it's just not possible.

pep,

I percieve my posts to be just about right

I percieve your posts to be just about right as well

all is well

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've always said I like the world and MB with everyone in it. I still do.

U sound human. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If u r tired, take a break. The incoming BS' here promise t/b here when u get back.

We see the same routine with different names, places, times and faces...... that's all. Now many of us don't 2 step around issues but prefer to hit them head one and save a few steps.

Now tell me again, what do you want us t/d?

take care,
L.

And I can't see one person objecting to that tack. I've seen many, many posters give 2x4s that are needed but they come from a base of caring and treat others as humans worthy of care. They're sometimes needed for BS and WS alike. I don't see why respectful is seen as coddling. It's loud and strident that is hard to deal with. I just shut off and don't listen any more. All children hear when you yell at them or use abusive language is not the message but "I don't count, I'm worthless". I think we carry that over into adulthood and hear the same thing.

Good communication skills are difficult and take time to learn but are well worth the effort.

Good Post, Kiwi, and very true.
The poster can't hear the message if there is disrespectful
screaming at them.

*****************edited********
Discussed AND LOCKED yesterday

****************************************

Well, Justuss IS the moderator so he can edit if he
so chooses. Actually, he is a pretty cool/caring fella.

I thought what OWL said (in the thread calling for his help)
had GREAT insight and value in it.
(About posting RESPECTFULLY.)

So I will OBEY and not post Owl's thoughtful messages here.

******************edit***************