What did I miss?!???!

It was locked, now it's unlocked...Star's magic...must be.

Can you change the title of the thread back now?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Oh that I were so magical and powerful!!! Nope....justuss magic I think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> No need to change the title....because the Mission WAS impossible LOL. The challenge was to discuss this topic <just once> without tipping the heat/needing moderation/in a logical rather than emotional way....otherwise it's just the same discussion which deserves to "die". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So I musta' got here AFTER the tape self-destructed?!?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Starfish....I value your input....I got here too late to see the fireworks. Now all that's left is vog!

You know it's been a while since we've had a really good MB question posted that got us into some of those deep deep discussions we used to have a few years ago....'member? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Where's SNL!??!?! LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Posting here is voluntary...

Reading here is voluntary...

People who come here for help come at a critical time in their respective lives...

Due to their state of mind when they "arrive", or what they've been through to get to wherever they are in their lives, some are hypersensitive to any number of topics, or responses to those topics.

"Most" people who post are familiar with MB and how it works, and encourage people to follow the "plan".

"Others" come in with an agenda, or, once here, develop an agenda to justify their own actions, or, just to create mayhem on the boards.

It would seem the "boards" are properly equipped with ignore features and mods. Just like any "community", there will be times when friction develops and "someone" has to settle disputes. Harley entrusts the mods to do just that. Are they right every time...possibly not, but they do what they are empowered to do, for what they percieve is in the best interest of "most". A difficult task, at best.

I think people should post truthfully, in their own style and in support of the MB philosophy. Let the "Golden Rule" be the guide.

Posts that fall within those guidelines can be hard hitting and challenging, or simply soft and encouraging. If people disagree, they have options. Ignore. Cease to follow the thread. Report the thread to mods. Engage and shout it out till the mods step in and lock the thread.

It's all good.


Now... if you can only solve the problem with newbies, who have NO IDEA about the MB program, posting to other newbies stuff that is totally wrong, or, how to keep me from posting to people who never return to their threads, please let me know.

SD

orchid,

So I musta' got here AFTER the tape self-destructed?!?!?!

LOLOL!! Unfortunately....so did I!! I have no idea what was editted....maybe it's better that way but maddening too....I hate to "miss" stuff *stomp*.

Starfish....I value your input....I got here too late to see the fireworks. Now all that's left is vog!

Likewise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know it's been a while since we've had a really good MB question posted that got us into some of those deep deep discussions we used to have a few years ago....'member?

I sure do chere. I miss that too.

Where's SNL!??!?! LOL!!!

Hahahahaha....Boy that's a blast from the past. What was his other name....something like sufbd? Did I ever tell you that he showed up on TOW and got thrown out of there too??? It was kind of hilarious. That guy was really "something"....not sure what???? hehehe....It's hard to believe that he hasn't reinvented himself....but he may yet rise from the ashes LOL!

I can tell you.

It wasn't much of a firework display!

I had copied and pasted two of Owl's insightful
posts from the locked thread that I had started.

That is about it!

No fireworks at all!

Star, I even bragged about what a thoughtful & caring
poster you are (that gives good advice)
(As do many others here on MB.)

So go on with your thread about posting RESPECTFULLY to
one another...the GOLDEN RULE, that is so PERFECT of how
we should ALWAYS post.
"To do unto others as we would have them do unto us."

Mary

shattered,

Interesting post but not really about what *I* was asking about. Back to the first post on this thread....it wasn't really a discussion of style alone....but style and language in a particular context <established posters>....I was asking other long time and established posters about their experience here after many years....and if there is some "merit" in the perception that some of our newer posters have about whether the same "standards" of respect are applied to everyone equally.....since it seems that question continues to be raised. I wanted to explore that perception as well as the stresses that posting here a long time can cause. I tried to be open and honest about my own experience and fallibility. I had hoped....that since I am have certainly been accused of being "above the law" <just look at the "magic" comment> that I might be able to raise a discussion without falling into the same trap. I was not successful....in fact....my motives were entirely questioned. The thread quickly denegrated to yet another discussion of style, coddling, morals, shock value etc. But that was not my original intent. Everybody has style, everybody has bias <that's a given> We won't all be comfortable with everyone else's style or language....and your suggestions are relevent in general...thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am guilty as "long time poster"..of having little to no patience...for a long welcome speech...
I am thankful for believer who always takes time to welcome new people....what she does for hundreds in my opinion is invaluable......to this place...(as do many others..but she is often the first there ..over and over...


I like to think that if people are here...(guests of marriage builders...)..
that they have invested some time familiarizing with concepts...

I shoot it straight out...
without much flowering....

I abhore any poster regardless of the number of posts besides their name.. that say..

I can't give advice I am new...wah wah wah..
advise away...is my mantra...

I do admit being ferociously protective of the principles of this board...though I give and don't mind alternative suggestions..I feel we need to clarify out of respect to the board owners when we drop rank...

I will lash at those that break rank without identifying it as NON-endorsed marriage builder belief...

and should confess to my own..
I'm not sooo invested in no contact LETTERS...though NO CONTACT is non-negotiable.....but the letter...feh...sometimes it's just fodder for the OP and WS to contact and chew over...

this has lead me to being falsely accused of being a marraige builder fanatic....which I am not..and do not think all things are black and applicable to all situations...
I am just aware of my being a guest here...and if I believed I had better way.....in direct conflict with harleys...I'd start my own dang board....and not accuse the harleys of being wrong...

I have periods of being gun shy to post...
been accused of hanging with old timer minions....
being crass...


well the truth is I believe in the ignore option at all times...

and not censureship....

and have little interest in changing peoples styles...

I wish people would go more to the source of their questions rather than the collective...

why does my spouse do blank blank blank....without ever asking their spouse first....
drives me nuts...

I like it when people post direct questions to their situation.......

that's when I think this board is MOST productive..

concrete plans for concrete issues...
not always perfect...but you get more feedback...

If I could I'd erase the stupid number tally..
makes me look like loser....

I think the onus of standards applies to the postee initially investing in being familiar with this site..
would save a lot of hurt feelings....

and going from there...

think about it how many people would not be offended so easily...

society expects us to say things like...

drop the loser
make him or her do this
demand this
give ultimatums
kick him/her out..

almost everything here is in direct opposite of what most people are told to do by caring real life people....

it's a shock to hear differently....
and in new BS pain the ears aren't hearing too much...

hhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

ARK

I'm not sure what the 'time frame' is for a long time poster...I've been posting here for over a year or so now.

I personally completely agree with the MB concepts, including exposure, NC letter, NC at all between affair partners, POJA, the ENQ, the LB, LB's/DJ/AO's, etc... When my FWW and I were in MC, I brought our MC to this site to learn about MB principles, many of which he began to adopt and use in his assistance of us through our times of trouble. I think that MB provides the soundest 'method' for recovery after infidelity that I've ever heard of or seen.

I have been accused of coming here simply to disrupt the forum boards, which is untrue. For any who doubt that, please go back and look at all the various threads that I posted on in attempts to assist others as I've been helped. I've pretty much stopped posting here over the last 2-3 months due to the issues that this particular thread mentions. I know of several other posters/former posters who have also stopped posting/coming here for the same or similar reasons.

My two biggest concerns are with how many of the MB principles are strictly and stringently 'interpreted' by some, and how its become acceptable to post strongly antagnostic comments and opinions about a poster or their actions, without regard to that posters well-being.

I am sure that there are occasional "grey areas" in the MB guidelines. If there weren't, there'd be no need for counselors at all...we'd simply hand every couple who's suffered from infidelity a copy of SAA and HNHN and tell them to read those and they'll be all better. Where the areas ARE grey, we need to be able to CALMLY and RESPECTFULLY voice our own interpretations, and seek some method of gaining clarification from the experts...the Harleys. And clearly mark our own interpretations of these areas as exactly that...what I think it means...not state that "This is what Harley means".

I've beaten the horse to death on the respect and posting issues, so I'll say no more on that subject.

Again, I'm not here on MB to cause trouble, or to disrupt the process of helping those who need help...I'd really like to see this place become the kind of place where people can come to get help, and feel that the people here are willing to help them...not make them feel attacked when they're already suffering.

IMHO .... this being posted from an intermediate, not a long time poster status..

People like you, Star*fish, and a host of other people too numerous to name, are the heart and soul of these boards.

Are you allowed more latitude than others? Probably. Is that absolutely fair to other less seasoned posters? Perhaps not, but so what? What about life is guaranteed to be fair? I guess I feel the long-time posters have "earned their stripes".

Each of you have read and responded to so many posts, and seen so many different situations, and have watched hundreds of scenarios play out, based on advice given in these forums. You know what works and what doesn't. You are all totally familiar with the Marriage Builder's philosophy and how to best employ it in specific situations. You have collectively helped thousands of people in their battle to save their marriage after it was damaged by infidelity.

Are you always right? No. Do you always evaluate each situation perfectly and give the right advice? Probably not. Are you above being called on some point of advice and asked to back up your stance? Nope. No one is. But, as the old saying goes, you are better off doing all you can and making a few mistakes along the way, than you are doing nothing at all in order to remain mistake free.

Base on my time here, the advice given by the majority of long-time posters is based on huge amounts of experience and compassion, and therefore, is most often right on the mark. Many, if not most, Newbies learn this rather quickly and on their own. No one has to tell them to "seek out" Orchid, or Pep, or Ark or Mel or others whose advice is so truthful, so full of common sense, so underpinned by the MB program, that they stand out on their own. That is not to say that someone who has not posted 5,000 or 3,000 posts is not qualified to give good advice. Quite the contrary. There are quite a few who have been here less than a year who have given some remarkable advice to others.

But the fact remains...there is a core of people who have been here for a long time that continue to be the heart and soul of the boards.

This is like a "living document" and it changes. Some drop out, some new arrive, every day. I haven't seen much of Too Much Coffee Man lately, but when I joined the boards, he and a number of others that were "regulars" at the time were handing out tons of good advice to people. Lives change, people change, the world evolves.

This is way longer than I intended, so I'll wrap it up by saying this...Yes, some of the long-time posters may be frustrated from time to time, and be a bit short, or even a bit hostile towards someone. Yes, some long-time posters may be given a bit more leash than someone who hasn't been here as long, nor contributed as much. Seniority, experience and compassion does count, and well it should. Should these long-time posters be allowed to rampage at will and do as they please? No, and I've never seen any indication that is happening, or that it will happen.

Most of the conflict on these boards is more a matter of clashing personalities, than it is with senior members receiving "special" treatment. Some people aren't able to "hear" the deeper message that was sent, because the delivery of the message was found to be offensive. Typically, that's because the deeper message struck a nerve, and the receiver is looking for a means by which to avoid hearing what they didn't want to hear.

I think most people who post in response to someone's call for help do so out of a true desire to help those in need. As with all of life, some do it better than others. Anyone who has posted over a thousand posts has made a noteworthy committment to helping others. Bless all who post here, for they do make a difference in peoples lives.

Just my thoughts...
SD

Wowww my friend Splintered Visions! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That was REALLY a good post and I agree with you completely!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well said!

There is a communication skill that is sorely missing. It isn't tact, or PC, nor is it 2x4 bluntness the size of Texas. Although that candor is refreshing!

The skill is "validation". Here, the old-timers want to insure that Harley's principles are validated on His Website. He pays for it. Doesn't ask us a dime to have our group therapy sessions on his address... His principles should be promoted and validated here, as they are the source of many a saved marriage, and those that don't recover, the participating spouse lives gracefully and hopefully ever after.

When an interloper comes in, we call that troll out. However, when a more well-meaning person comes in, and proudly promotes a contrarian philosophy that could be hurtful to newbies, should they consider this "easier way out" as a good thing... well then, it must be called out by those with sufficient experience to recognize false doctrine. To ignore it or support with warm fuzzies and hugs is to join in the collusion and promote the continued harm of the remaining betrayed spouse.

This web site is not a democracy. And those who espouse principles that are not statistically valid will be continuously corrected.

As far as 2B's issues go - she and her husband are co-collaborators in a crime against a woman who did nothing but trust her unworthy wayward husband. They are witnesses to the crime, but continue to let time pass while the woman sleeps with her enemy. Should this unsound doctrine not be identified and resoundingly corrected, a newer recovering formerly wayward person might consider that exposure isn't necessary.

She reacts almost violently to the suggestion that she is not fully repentant; whether it's Mel's blunt Texas candor, or scriptural directness of Mortarman. But she makes Mel a target to deflect the issue. The real issue is disclosure, exposure, to the true victim in her situation.

I will not be part of the collusion. Tactful, blunt, direct, etc. are all valuable ways of validating Harley's principles. Outrage at any such communications simply detract from the real issue (as is the intent by those MOST personally offended and outraged!)

Yes, of course...floggings must continue until heresy is confessed...

Floggings? what floggings? I simply see correction, not with the intent that heresy will be confessed, but so that newbies don't get the idea that non-exposure is harmless.

I don't expect that 2B will ever see the fallacy in her choices. But Katie Mae, Suzie, and lurking OW who wish to be clean of their previous choices need to be able to see clearly that MM's wife needs to know.

Sounds very much like something Torquemada might have said.

Why do you feel responsible for how newbies interpret other's posts? People should simply say what they have to say and leave it at that.

Well, haven't been here in a long time, but stumbled in and found this thread. Most, if not all, of you will not remember me, but for about a year, I was here all the time. It was my life preserver in impossibly high seas and for that I am forever grateful to the Harleys and the forum denizens of the time.

Anyway, as long as y'all are doing a little soul searching or examining the "fine-tuning" knob, I thought I'd throw this in...

Dr. Harley's "map" of the course of an affair is extraordinarily accurate considering the complexities of human interaction. His strategies for coping with the affair are equally astounding in putting the right behavior in at the right time.

However, the complexities I mentioned above also contribute sometimes to a "sucker punch", that many on MB refuse to admit. That is, that even though the "map" and plans are accurate and effective in the general sense, every situation has the potential to deviate from the norm, some slightly where the plans still work, others more drastically requiring a re-evaluation.

I haven't read thru a lot of the current threads, but in the past, the core of "guidance counselors" of which some of you are members, tended to evaluate every situation identically and forcefully recommended strict adherence to "Plan A/Plan B".

In my situation, I fought off demands that I go to Plan B on a daily basis. I tried to explain that I knew my W and that Plan B would, in essence, be a Plan "D". Few accepted my evaluation of my plight and many still hammered on me to "Plan B". In my heart, I knew "B" was wrong for my W and I. I stayed on the board anyway because outside of telling me I was an idiot for not "B'ing", everyone continued to be supportive and there were times when I was able to help someone else.

Lostva, NB and DuncanMac were my "rocks", accepted that I truly believed what I believed and kept me going. As it turned out, after navigating the rough seas and recovering our marriage, I discovered via my W what I had suspected all along. Had I entered into Plan B, she would have ended the marriage. The contents of a Plan B letter would have meant little or nothing. She would have judged my actions as having "given up" on the marriage and done so herself. She has been very firm and clear on this.

So, all I'm really saying is to keep preaching the methodology, but do try to look deeper before locking the steering wheel. There are some of us who do truly "know" our spouses, at least during their sane periods. Demanding unrelenting adherence to the "plans" is fine as long as you are willing to do as trained counselors and psychologists do and accept the fact that there may be a few times when you do more harm than good.

For those of you who made it this far...Thanks for listening....

D.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Like you and I have said. I have every right to bring the discussion back to the tried and true principles that Harley put forth, and the old-timers used to recover their marriages or move on with their lives.

I'm not "responsible" for how newbies interpret other's posts. But as a participating member here, I am responsible to bring the discussion back to correct principles that worked in my marriage.

We should not be trying to change HOW people post to accommodate someone who would rather distract us from the real issue. Just because you disagree with me doesn't mean I'm trying to change your posts.

However, if my inappropriate behavior was being labelled in direct and descriptive way, and I didn't want to face it, own it, and deal with it, I might do EXACTLY what 2B has done, and recruited allies to help me create a distraction.

Star's Mission Impossible is as easy as pressing the ignore button on posters you don't want to read anymore. The problem is, there are those who would rather choke on a knat and swallow a camel, than ignore the opportunity to push PC on this board.

Bottom line, if you don't like certain posts, there is the "ignore" button. I haven't seen that happen to Mel or anyone else. You have the ultimate power, people! Go Ahead! Stop complaining and just do it - press the "ignore" button!!!

I concur. Press Ignore! Feel the power.

Star,

I've been thinking about your post and I have a few thoughts. I guess I qualify as an old timer. I've been here since .. oh.. about 2002. As you know, I came to MB not because my marriage was struggling or touched by infidelity, but because we HAD struggled and I was excited to find a message/method about building marriages that was similar to what me and my H stumbled through on our own (my impetus for looking up marriage information was to pass it on to my sister who STILL continues to struggle in her own marriage -- she hasn't taken a bit of advice from me ). Anyway, I stuck around...

I think that there is a very real 'old timer's syndrome' that happens here on these boards. It reminds me a bit of Harleys' descriptions of Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders. Or, perhaps a better description is there are people who come here for a reason, a season, or a 'lifetime.' Some people come here for a reason: they post about their situation only, get advice (or not) and move on. Or, perhaps they don't even post at all, they just lurk and read. Some people come here for a season. They participate fully in the boards until whatever crisis they had is over; then they drift away and take care of "real life." Some people come here and stay; contributing over and over and over again.

There are real benefits to having the continuity of 'old timers' around here. The boards take on a bit of a rhythm and personality-like flavor they wouldn't otherwise have. In many ways, we're like a large, unruly, typically dysfunctional family. You know -- where uncle Bob gets drunk every Christmas and wears the lampshade on his head? People act outraged when he does it but everyone laughs and it's almost ritualistic after a while. When Uncle Bob finally passes away, people sit around and look at lampshades on Christmas Eve and talk about how much they miss his antics. Large families are comfortable and comforting. They can be fiercely loyal and they have an almost unlimited amount of compassionate and wise resources.

There are down sides to the large family arrangement, too. One of them is integrating outsiders (newbies) into our fold. To be sure, some people walk in the door and fit right in! It's like an old, familiar shoe. But, some people have a much harder time doing that and remain outsiders -- at least for a time.

Large families can seem intimidating or insular to outsiders. There are a lot of 'in jokes' and even a special language that we use here (WS, BS, POJA...). Some people, desperate to fit in, might hear the lampshade jokes and think that if they wear the lampshade then that will bring acceptance -- completely unaware of the faux pas that they've just committed until they hear the collective gasp from the crowd and feel the disapproving stares through the shade. Large families might fill particular roles with specific people. Aunt Nancy might be the one we go to for spiritual guidance. You, Star, might be who we go to for mediation when we fight. Uncle Ray might be who we go to when we need the hard, brutal truth. And, so on. Someone familiar with the family knows better than to go to me, the athiest, for advice on religious matters. But, an outsider might unknowingly find Uncle Ray before she's prepared to hear the hard truth and find her tender feelings ever more bruised. Sometimes, outsiders to the family get angry and decide they don't want to be part of the family but they still want their voices heard in this space.

Another downside to the large family arrangement is the slowness of change (of course, that's an upside too!). It's hard to hear 'outside' ideas and not worry they'll corrupt the family enviornment. How much of that can the collective take before the family is torn apart and no longer exists? How long will outsiders stick around and try to inject new, fresh voices into the mix if they're fighting against people who fear what they stand for at all? (And, should we want them to?)

My feelings about this is that it's good and it's bad. I think the large family environment is homey.. it offers a 'feel' to the board that I haven't found elsewhere (and I've looked around quite a bit). It's bad because, even after all these years, I still feel like an outsider. And, that's emotionally hard for me because it's another reflection of how I've always felt in my own family. I want to fit in. I want to be a part -- but I just don't... quite. Maybe I'm just the perpetual family 'misfit.' (Someone's got to do it.)

I straddle the fence. On one side I like the continuity and I highly value, prize, and aspire to the belonging that comes from having a family atmosphere. On the other side, I sometimes want to reject that which I feel rejects me (a bit of sour grapes, maybe?). But, mostly, I know my feelings on this don't much matter in the way things happen. And, after all these years, I'm learning to be OK with that, too.

There are many things about this board I'd change if I were "Queen for the day."

One thing I'd change is the culture of shame we have around here. I won't say that shaming people into action isn't effective -- because, clearly, it is. It's probably not even destructive for some people but it is for me. I don't subscribe to a "All that matters is that they do the right thing, not why they do the right thing. If shaming works then that's what you do. Eventually, they'll feel better having done the right thing" philosphy. There are times I've been shamed into action. That action might have even been the right thing to do -- but I've never, ever felt anything regarding that action than repugnance, more shame, and festering resentment. I don't recover well from being shamed and that's probably why I try so hard not to use that as a tactic and I cringe internally every time I see it used on this board. Shaming has ruined my relationship with my family of origin. It is hurtful for me even to witness it.

And, yet, it is effective.

I just think there can be gain without that particular brand of pain. At least there can be for me -- others mileage may vary (and, perhaps, others recover from the process).

One of the things I really liked about the MB program was the idea of Plan A and Plan B -- to very respectful approaches to recovering a marriage. Plan A indicates a willingness to convince the WS that the marriage is a good place to be -- not just morally right, but actually valuable TO the WS. Plan B is a respectful withdrawal (no shaming, no manipulating) in order to let the WS make a critical decision whether to come back or stay away. It's such a humane way to treat people -- even in the face of inhumane treatment (the affair).

I suppose I'm one of those milk sop, coddling, bleeding heart, moral relativists that people are always complaining about. *grins* Well, at least they're not imagining things!

Anyway, thank you for asking this question, Star. I've wanted a venue to speak my mind on this and I appreciate you being willing to read/listen. It's good to talk. (I know I've rambled down other avenues than this thread has gone and I apologize if it doesn't quite fit -- but what do you expect from the family 'misfit' anyway? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Mys