Thanks.

Love ya SS - I don't know what else to say right now without sounding negative. Whatever you've gained from MB you've paid back to me 10fold. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thank you so much for your thoughtful insight. Don't think I've overlooked anything that you have to say, I am just feeling really burnt and negative today. Tons of stuff to do around the house this weekend and I actually think H may help - we'll see.

BTW - don't know your story, but your wife is a very lucky woman - you are a gem.

SS...

You are compassionate and wise and intuitive.

I know you are speaking to Callie, but your words have helped me too. I can't speak for her, but for me who is in a similar situation, someone to validate our feelings means so much. I think sometimes when people hear of situations like ours there is some disbelief. People want to believe that your story is one-sided and spoken in the "fog" or out of anger. Even some of my family members initially adopted this attitude because they couldn't see it. As Callie knows, it is hard to keep up with the picture of the happy family, but it can be done. We have fooled even our closest of friends and family, all the while hiding the pain we feel. When we have gotten to the point of being able to express to someone, to anyone, what is needed most is support and validation. And you are so right....there is a breaking point.

You said this, SS:

"Indecision - Reluctance or an inability to make up one's mind; irresolution.

My opinion is that you are so tired of this that your inner self wants to get out. Your logical self reads new material, and understands that there might be a chance. You might not understand why you have these conflicting feelings - because you have made a logical decision to continue for a while.

Realize these parts of you are in conflict. Both of them make up this complicated, loving, kind, intelligent person we call YOU. Don't ignore your feelings in favor of logic. Take these feelings into account in your planning, and think about that backup plan. Be willing to be apart from him and work from a distance to give this a better chance if that's what it takes. You have the best chance of making this work if you can get your emotional self, and your logical self in sync."

I could not agree with you more. I totally believe this is what happens and I felt that battle within - intellect and emotion fighting against each other. Somehow the two have to come together. You are also correct in journalizing, it helps immensely and can bring those two parts together to a decision. I have written and written and written. My wonderful friends Kathy and Mary have been the recipients of my thoughts and feelings for months. So, Callie, do this. Keep writing and getting it out. It may not seem like it helps, and you may feel like you're saying the same things over and over, but eventually it will help give you clarity and direction.

SS, I also appreciate your suggestion at spending time apart. This is a huge "no-no" in most pro-marriage opinions, but I do think there can be merit in it. Several months ago when I reached my breaking point and my H seemingly "woke up", I was in so much pain, anger, and hurt that anything he did repelled me. He made some attempts towards me to be attentive and it only served to make me angrier. This has been going on for about 5 months now. We have both come to the conclusion that we need some time apart. My very pro-marriage counsellor suggested a "controlled separation" (there is a book I purchased about it). The idea is to take the pressure off both parties....and give some time for both to discern their own feelings and outlook. I had/have so much resentment and anger that I can't receive anything from my H right now. The separation is "controlled" in that you agree and sign a contract. First of all you put a time frame on it....typically a number of months. You also then both agree that neither party would file for divorce during that time. That allows you space without worry about what the other is doing. Then you both decide how to handle the kids, the finances, dating each other, dating others. Obviously, this arrangement has to be agreed to by both and there has to be some amount of trust and respect. If both go into it with the idea that it is a true attempt to save the marriage, I think it can work. This is what my H and I are now planning.

I agree with SS...if you can do things together and still enjoy each other's company that would be the OPTIMAL way to find yourselves back to each other. In my situation, there are so many walls of hurt built up that I am unable to even find a place where we can enjoy each other at all. PLUS, in my situation, both of us have individual issues that need to be addressed. I don’t think we can find our way back to each other until we both have acknowledged that and have done some work on our own. I am in NO WAY advocating my ideas on anyone else, only offering another suggestion.

SS Said:

My opinion is that you are so tired of this that your inner self wants to get out. Your logical self reads new material, and understands that there might be a chance. You might not understand why you have these conflicting feelings - because you have made a logical decision to continue for a while.

Realize these parts of you are in conflict. Both of them make up this complicated, loving, kind, intelligent person we call YOU. Don't ignore your feelings in favor of logic. Take these feelings into account in your planning, and think about that backup plan. Be willing to be apart from him and work from a distance to give this a better chance if that's what it takes. You have the best chance of making this work if you can get your emotional self, and your logical self in sync."

Just as Cards says, I couldn't agree more. This is EXACTLY how I feel. My inner self DOES want out, but the logical self says, come on, you can hold out longer, keep trying, Maybe, just maybe something will click with H and he WILL SEE. After 18 years he hasn't though. I know what's holding me right now is knowing that I haven't given him a fair chance at seeing what we can accomplish while he's on the right meds with a good psych. doc. Maybe this will be what we need. I've gotta say though - my gut tells me otherwise. In my heart, I think the right meds/ doctors will help, but I think when all is said and done I will be dealing with the same person, same habits, only a bit kinder and gentler and maybe not so extreme. His morals and views on gambling, drugs, missed work, whatever are COMPLETELY different than mine. I don't think medication or counselors are going to change that. They're not going to change who he is at his core or his value system.


SS I have been thinking for about a week or so about a timeline. I know that I have lived like this for years and I can't/won't do it for many more years. I'm also just starting to realize that if I give myself a timeline and look at it from that standpoint, the future doesn't seem so dismal.

I have also been thinking about seperation - which is a gigantic step for me. My fear of seperation to this point has been that NOBODY knows about the life I've lived within these walls. If we seperate, people will know. The VERY things that I've tried so hard to protect and keep secret will be exposed. This is very, very scary to me. People will know that the "perfect couple" aren't what they appear to be. This is one thing that both MC's have really harped on with me is telling people. From my perspective though - if I tell people, I am 95% sure that that will be the end for us. I could be wrong, but that is what I've always felt.

Cards,
I have not followed your story, so I can't comment much about lots of what you said.

It does go against prevailing advice to recommend being apart.

Plan B is supposed to preserve love and help end the affair.
In this case, where there is no ongoing affair (on H's part) it would serve to preserve love.

I am afraid both of you are in a similar place as far as spending time with your H's. I think the conditions you are talking about for being apart are necessarry. Without them there may as well be a D.

When I recommended Callie spending time with her H, I wondered how she would react. I think she worded it as nicely as she could, but that she feels about like you do.

It looks like there is no love left to preserve. But...... it's difficult to see everything from this end of the internet connection. Speaking of both of you and your relationships with your H's.

Both of you have been harmed. I think if drastic measures had been taken years ago, perhaps your H's would have come to their senses, and helped fix things.

Now, it is nearly to late - or perhaps it is too late. I don't know how you can find out except to do the work.

Living under these conditions lets a person become vulnerable to attention from outside the marriage. You hunger for what is missing. Of course, giving in to these feelings doesn't fix a thing. It only compounds the problems and makes it more difficult to make good decisions.

I am sure many of the bad feelings Callie has for her H are a result of the LB's he engages in. Telling lies, not going to work, and so on, and so on. Being away playing cards, when he should be helping at home.

I am sure also that some of her feelings are a result of being attracted to someone else. It's so difficult to separate fact from reality when that chemical and emotional pull exists.

Callie - sorry for talking about you as if you aren't here.

Being apart might save what little love is left, but it causes it's own problems. Sometimes the partner gets tired of waiting and gives up. Sometimes it's such a relief to be way from the pain, you want to make it permanent before you know anything.

Callie, you said:
In my heart, I think the right meds/ doctors will help, but I think when all is said and done I will be dealing with the same person, same habits, only a bit kinder and gentler and maybe not so extreme. His morals and views on gambling, drugs, missed work, whatever are COMPLETELY different than mine. I don't think medication or counselors are going to change that. They're not going to change who he is at his core or his value system.

One of the reasons I encourage women to give their H's a chance is because I was the problem in our M, and my W gave me a chance. I had the bad habits, I was the emotional abuser. I wanted a good marriage, but I didn't know how to change our patterns.

When I found MB, a light went off in my head, and I got excited. Working the MB plan, and keeping the four rules have worked wonders for us. We still have problems sometimes, but she is happy to see me when I come home, and I can't wait to get there after work. We are in love - better and more wonderful than I thought it could be after nearly 30 years of marriage.

It has been difficult to know what to say to you. I said this before, but how do you encourage someone to stay in an abusive relationship because it just might work this time??

I agree, it's a long shot.

Not understanding his condition, and hearing others say that with treatment it can get better, are helps. Otherwise, I might have recommended you leave now.

Callie, if you don't have a good solid plan to deal with this, you won't last much longer. It's there, in the tone of your voice (so to speak.) You try hard to be brave, but your feeligns are your feelings. They drive your decisions and your ability to cope.

Being apart would buy YOU time. It would let you detach from his daily bad habits, and continue with hope. It would also let him understand how it will be if he doesn't make it work.

The down side: he won't have your help - and you are still his last, best hope. It would mean people know - and there are two sides to that also.
As was said above, you might be overjoyed to have a rest, and not want to risk being with him again. The abuse you have endured is real, it won't just be OK becasue we talk about it here.

I have also been thinking about seperation - which is a gigantic step for me. My fear of seperation to this point has been that NOBODY knows about the life I've lived within these walls. If we seperate, people will know.

I don't know all the reasons you fear it will be over once people know. I know a couple whose lives had been nearly torn apart by an A, but are happily married now. We are good friends with them, and we support them and love them. There was a child born as a result of the A, and he is loved and accpeted.

I don't have answers for either of you, or "sure thing" solutions. Lets keep talking about it though, maybe you'll get ideas that will help.

Callie, one of the reasons I keep putting out ideas, is that your reaction to them helps me know where you really are emotionally. Keep giving honest comments, it helps form a frame of reference.

How are both of you doing today?
Looking foreward to the weekend?

The answer to that would tell me a great deal too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

SS

Well SS, you asked for it! LOL

I just need to vent. Ok, here goes... I view all of our finances through online banking. For the last 3 weeks I've not been able to get online because for whatever reason the password was "invalid" I suspect H changed it, but he denies it very strongly. I usually can't call and get anything changed because the accounts are in his name (which is fine - I'd rather not have my name directly on that debt). So after the last 3 days of me harping on him to call and get password and him not doing it, I decide to try to call myself and talked them into resetting the password so I can view accts again. Once I am online I see that within the last 2 weeks he's pulled $1000 off for online gambling (he says he meant to do $100). I do somewhat believe that but know that you're going to be given the option to verify that amt. a few times before it actually processes it. Also, he has kept his last 2 paychecks and stuck them in his pocket (therefore not going into our household.) He has also pulled $1200 out on the ATM. This means that he's went through roughly $3500 -4000 in the last few weeks. I have no idea what he would have spent it on. Is he stashing it? Spending it? Right now I don't know, don't care.

This on top of the fact that I am desperately trying to get our household on a budget. Our household CANNOT handle this kind of $$ abuse. Just last night and this morning he was complaining and saying that he wanted a new truck. He can't even go to work every week,and KNOWS that we need to get things straightened up financially before we can even CONSIDER a truck. He's throwing a fit saying I got a new MDX last year - which is true, but I've always kept my vehicles paid for. That on top of the fact that my SUV was to be our family car, the one we take out on weekends, the one which hauls our kids around and what not. He just has a car that he drives to work. It is mainly a mileage car. This am. when he's going on and on about how I got a new truck and he did not, I really stepped back and looked at how selfish he was. I understand that he wants a new truck, but he can't step back and look at what's best for our family, finances and household right now. All I heard was "I want a new truck" - today I saw how truely selfish he is. You know, it's times like this when I think maybe I can handle this household financially as a single mom. With child support and my income maybe I would actually be better off. I think he's digging us deeper by staying here than if I just took the child support and did it on my own.

Sorry to ramble, amazing, just amazing. The thing is, this is what I've ALWAYS dealt with. I have seriously thought about the timeline that you (SS) mentioned. I am also SERIOUSLY considering seperation. I would bet the bank that for me seperation would lead to divorce, but I don't know what else to do anymore. I just don't.

Sorry to go on, tomorrow will be a better day I know - he'll have some "LOGICAL" explanation of why he needed $3500 to live on, I won't buy a word of it, but will have to "accept it".

Is this bipolar? I think it probably is, but I know some of it is just H and the way he is. If it is BPD - why am I always left to pick up the pieces? How much is a wife, a person supposed to sustain? Why do I deserve this and why am I not strong enough to do something about it besides bit%^, yell, and complain? That does nothing because he does it again and again and again. I'm sorry for unloading - Just needed to get this out.

I could just cry, scream and just crawl in a hole. I am so, totally beating my head up against a brick wall with him. This just adds to my resentment. How can I ever get past that if he won't let up. I can't catch a break with him, about the time I do, it all comes crashing down again.

Just another day in the life of me. SS -- I hope your weekend is going better than mine <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (are you sorry you asked??0 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not sorry at all.

Understand about the frustration. Know the word frustration is a massive UNDERSTATEMENT.

You do need to protect yourself.
One of the reasons he does what he does, is because he can.

Please do look into legal seperation. Find out if you can stay in the home, and get $$$ support. Make sure you can do it on your own withouth him - he might do something stupid, and land himself in jail?

Look at all the sides, and see what your options are. Talk to a lawyer.

I would bet the bank that for me seperation would lead to divorce, but I don't know what else to do anymore. I just don't.

We don't know, do we?
It could lead to him becoming stone cold sober, and fixing himself. It could lead to D.

Letting him be accountable for his actions is part of helping him to heal. If you can do that while you are together, it would maybe be easier, but if not, then take the steps you need to take.

Remember he might come apart, and loose his job - take that into account. I don't know if you can keep the house by yourself, but that shouldn't be a factor.

Remember that he is a person too. He has feelings, and he is important to God. Your feelings for him - good or bad will tell you a lot about your motivation. God loves him, and wants to bring him back if it is possible. What do you want?

No, I'm not sorry. I'm glad you could still put those smiley faces at the end - That's got to be a good thing.

SS

Hey Callie,

How are things going today? Thank you for the sweet message earlier. I help others, because others have helped me. And I continue to grow by talking to (and learning from) others... this site has been a godsend!

Today Dr. Phil is doing a show on bipolar disorder... my family is in town this morning, but I'm hoping to watch it. I don't know how you feel about Dr. Phil, but maybe you want to check it out.

Also, Rinderella linked a WONDERFUL site last week that I've been using quite a bit... www.coping.org. It has a lot of great information, plus numerous excersizes you can do. I've been journaling a lot of the questions/suggestions they list, and it has been very helpful. Do you have a journal?

I had a horrible night last night. H was at class and I got drunk and raged about OM. I beat up the pillows on my bed and screamed, calling him every name in the book. So while I might seem like I have things together, I'm still working on my inner demons. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'm feeling a little better today.

Thank you again for the message and I hope you are coping okay today. I am thinking of you!

KM

You are well?

Struggling?

Making progress?

SS

Hi SS! Thanks so much for asking! I am far from well and still very much struggling. I'm getting my 5yo twins off to kinder. tomorrow, so that has been my focus for a few weeks now. I will be a mess come 7:05 when that bus comes tomorrow morning! Nothing has changed, still no IC or MC for either of us. If you remember, the last IC basically said that I needed to make up my mind which direction and he would help after that decision was made. Husband got frustrated trying to contact a psych. doc / clear it with insurance / etc. So his answer as always is to sweep it under the rug. I have been on him about this pretty heavily in the last week, but feel that he needs to step up and take the reigns on this one. I really don't feel that we can't accomplish much if he doesn't at least do that.

The gambling has chilled out a bit, he's actually been going to work and even getting in some OT. I would say that we've made no progress since my last postings. I have been trying to sit back and not rock the boat for now. Still trying to assess everything. I've been thinking quite a bit about what you've said about getting the "head and heart aligned". I know that this is a big problem for me. I'd never really realized that until you pointed it out. I've also been thinking about the timeline. For now I think it is best all around to see if he can / will step up with his BPD and treatment. I am pushing for this accountability on his part, but at the same time trying to let the decisions be his. If he cannot do this, I feel that I need to make some decisions after the first of the year.

Thanks so much for your help SS. Please be assured that I am not sweeping any of this under the rug. I am dealing with things day by day.

Please be assured that I am not sweeping any of this under the rug.

You don't seem like the type of person that would do that.

I see much on how he is doing. It is helpful.

How about you?
Are you able to give us more about how you are feeling?
This is not one of those "How are you today? Fine, and you?" questions.
I would really like to know some details.

You may not realize this, but how you are doing is pretty important to this recovery effort. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm getting my 5yo twins off to kinder. tomorrow, so that has been my focus for a few weeks now. I will be a mess come 7:05 when that bus comes tomorrow morning!

I remember.
For us.......... the twins are the last of our children. It was with very mixed emotions we send them off to school.

Good in some ways, bad in others. You'll understand that statement very well.

You'll have more time on your hands. What will you do with it? Perhaps not the time so much......... in and of it's self. Perhaps I am thinking more of the time in your head.

There are two recoveries being worked on.
The recovery of your marriage - though it would probably be better to build a new and better one than to recover the old one.

And -

Your own personal recovery.

You have much to recover from. Perhaps you don't realize it yet, perhaps you do.

When this settles down, you need to be one of two places.

The first -
"I love my H, and I know he needs love and help. I have loved him, and still love him, but I can't help him any more, and I need to remove myself from the drama in order to heal myself."

The second -
"I can see H is making progress....... even if it's slow. I am in a better place now, and I realize I can continue to help him for a long time. The problems won't go away any time soon, but we can get through them."

Where you don't want to be -
"I hate this man, I hate who he is, and I hate what he does. I can't take it any longer, I'm getting out before it kills me."

I am concerned for your H. He is a child of God. God loves him, and wants him to succeed. God will help him all that he can, but he usually uses us to help each other rather than doing things for us directly.
We do need to respond though, and he has choices to make. I hope (for all your sakes) that he makes correct choices, and that he does what is needed.

I am concerned for you. You are a child of God. You have needs that are not being met, and have not been met for quite some time. You are tired, and your strength if finite.
I worry about what this experience will do - how it will change you.

Will you become stronger, more compassionate, more loving? Or will it break you, make you hard, strip you of feelings?

You can't make his choices, and I can't make his choices. Each of us chooses our own course, makes our own mistakes, and grows from them, or is destroyed by them.

The refiners fire is very hot. Will you be refined and purified, or will you be burned up?

It applies to all of us - me included. We all have our own fire walk.

Ok, I feel to change the tone of this. Serious is good, but laughter helps too.

Can you stand on your head in the bathtub, and sing? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
This might be important sometime, though just when and why escapes me at the moment.

SS

So wise SS. I read your post a few days ago and thought such thoughtful questions deserved some REAL answers so I've had to think about them.

Firstly, I got my kids off to K. A very hard first day for me, but they love it! That is the best news to hear when your kids come running off of the bus. I've also thought of the extra time issue with them in K. H is really dreading the extra time, because he will avoid confrontation at all costs and with the kids in K there will for sure be more discussions.

As you know with 2 5 yo's, you don't get much time alone and it can sure be stressful. I rarely have free time and when I do it is usually playing catch up around the house. I am hoping with them in K that my mind can rest just a bit.
Not only my mind, but I'm hoping to get my home / life more organized. Everyhing in my life has been so disorganized during the last year and I've been living in chaos. Rightfully so I suppose. I hope this time can help a bit in my personal recovery.

My H is really making no progress. We're at it about every few days. I would like it to be known that it is never in front of the kids and no yelling / screaming. Still, they can probably sense the tension. H has not contacted psych. doc's and I would say without my pushing he probably will not. He has said that the only reason that he is taking meds and would consider seeing someone is for me. He's not doing it for himself. He's also now questioning whether he even has BPD. This is not good, I know. I know that he needs to WANT to get help, if it is forced help, that won't do much good. I'm also starting to realize that people who are successful in dealing with their BPD WANT to get help and will do whatever they need to do to aid in their recovery. H has very little impulse control. Really about the only impulse control that he has is me standing over his shoulder saying "don't do that". That is not good either - I know.

As far as your three scenarios - I really can't pick one right now. I do love him, but he's not making much progress (he is just a bit calmer and a little more stable on his meds, but not much and not enough to make the drastic changes that he needs). I do feel like I need to withdraw myself from this M to heal, but for some reason I've not been able to do that. I also have times where I can hate him / who he is / what he does and I feel like I can't take it any longer.

I do know that I am very tired - but...I am a strong person and this experience has already made me hard and stripped my feelings, the thing is - it's only towards him. I am kind, compassionate and loving to most all people. I have a hard time being that to him. I know that this is not healthy for me, our M or for him.

I know that I should step back and let him take the lead on finding him a psych doc, making his appts, reading up on the meds and all of that. But I feel like that is the last shred of hope that I have for possibly saving this marriage. I feel like I NEED him to do this so we can even see if there is a remote chance. Will the right meds make the world of difference like some people claim? In my heart I feel the answer is no. But I have this nagging feeling that I just need to know this one last thing. Can he be helped?

I've been thinking about yet again taking the reigns on this doctor situation. Find him a doc, support group, right med combination, dealing with insurance etc. I'm wondering if I don't need to do this for my peace of mind. My plan was to sit back and see if he would do anything. He is not. I don't know if I can leave without knowing this. I hate that I can't make a decision when it is probably so obvious to those reading this what my decision should be.

Dear Callie,

I just read your posts.

I wonder if your not the very responsible caretaker and he needs to learn he needs to take care of himself first so that he can take care of you too.

Believe me when I say...plowing yourself into your marraige doesn't mean becoming his caretaker only.

I see it that unfortunately/fortunately for you, you must have NC with this contractor. I don't think you will feel ok saying this is my last bit of final effort...finish the race running...that's what I'm going to do.

Pain is necessary to grow.


I want to respond later with more.

LWP36 - thank you. Yes, I am and have always been the caretaker. I don't want to be that and never have. He does need to step up and take care of himself. Unfortunately he has never done that either mentally or physically.

Yes, you are right about finishing the race running. Unfortunately I cannot yet see the finish line! I would appreciate any input that you have about BPD. Can you give me an opinion on something? Do you think it is possible for someone to successfully manage BPD if they're irresponsible and not in tune with themselves at all? What if someone with BPD will take the pills that they're supposed to take, but doesn't really do much else? I guess in my readings, it is the people that successfully manage BPD who are responsible and have impulse control. (by lack of impulse control I mean gambling, excessive $$ spending, sleep - he can sleep for 11-13 hours a day, which makes it worse. He will not adjust this though - I think he should set an alarm for 8 hours and get up no matter what. He won't do this though.) What are your thoughts on that? One other note, as of now my H has not been categorized as far as which BP he has. In my posts is there anything that you think he / we should be doing that we're not?

Callie,
Thanks for the update.

I thought about posting to you each week, as the more than three weeks went by.

Wondered if nothing changed.
Wondered how strong you were feeling.
Wondered about your longings, dreams, hopes. How they were holding up.

It's hard to read between the lines sometimes. There is much you talked about, but also much you didn't.

As you know with 2 5 yo's, you don't get much time alone and it can sure be stressful. I rarely have free time and when I do it is usually playing catch up around the house. I am hoping with them in K that my mind can rest just a bit.
Not only my mind, but I'm hoping to get my home / life more organized. Everyhing in my life has been so disorganized during the last year and I've been living in chaos. Rightfully so I suppose. I hope this time can help a bit in my personal recovery.

I hope it can help in your personal recovery too.
What do you do for YOU?

How do you calm yourself when you are stressed?
What do you do to change the thoughts that play on the stage of your mind....... to take the bad ones, and replace them with good?


I do know that I am very tired - but...I am a strong person and this experience has already made me hard and stripped my feelings, the thing is - it's only towards him. I am kind, compassionate and loving to most all people. I have a hard time being that to him. I know that this is not healthy for me, our M or for him.

No, it's not healthy. Unless you can find a way to have good feelings for him, I don't see any hope.

Often we have this picture in our minds of a person who lives to torment us, when reality is that they are sick, and need help. Perhaps we are all sick to an extent?
However, if we are required to cope long term, and never get a rest, the bad feelings replace the good, and we have a hard time ever getting them back.

I see you ARE a strong person. I wonder if this strength is total, or if you are strong on the surface, and underneath there is still an uneasy truce banishing the thoughts of leaving for someone else.

Forgive me for some of these comments. No doubt they stir up feelings......and bring some pain. When I asked how you were, I wanted to know how the strggles are going......... both external, AND internal. I hope you realize people care about you, pray for you, and understand how hard it is some days.

I hate that I can't make a decision when it is probably so obvious to those reading this what my decision should be.

It's not obvious to me at this point. I know pretty much nothing about his illness. I am careful about what I say because of this. Notice I don't say "everything will be fine, just work hard, and do your best." It maybe that the best thing is to leave, but I don't know that.

Some (0n your thread) have indicated that he might not be capable of doing the work on his own, and that you will need to help him.

It bothers me that you have tried so hard for so long. It bothers me that there is still much to be done - and worse, the way is not clear, the finish line not yet in sight.

I see your requests to others for information. I feel the longing you have inside to know what is needed. If you are still pulled different directions, the ~ helper ~ in you seems to be winning still. I am glad for that.

I have only one suggestion this post.

You are the strong one, he the weaker at this point in time.

It is necesarry for you to understand him before you can make yourself understood. If you'll permit it - I would like to assign homework.

Please take this week and talk to him from another point of view. Please seek to find out how he feels about all this.

How he feels about contacting the Doc.
How he feels about what happened last year.

How he feels about his (aparent) limitations.
About how you and he interact.
About you.
About the twins.
About his job.

Usually I would give examples of questions now, but I think you're good for it. (grin)

How about you. How are you feeling after reading this?

Please know we care. Don't think you are all alone in the world, and that no one notices.

SS

SS - thanks again for the care and insight. Hopefully I can answer a few of your questions.

I really don't get away from the stress that I feel daily. I really can never unwind from it. I may take the day and go shopping, paint or whatever, but all that really does is put things on "hold" if you know what I mean. I feel like I'm wound very tight, I never fully unwind. This is not good for me I know. My last IC said that I seem understandably "anxious, almost frantic at times". He also said that I need to make some decisions or I could end up having a nervous breakdown. I've thought of that, but I think I am a ways from that. I would leave this M or at least seperate if I ever thought I was close to that point for any period of time.

We had yet another big argument last night about everything. To answer a few more of your questions above:

H feels like my EA ripped his heart out. I have been the only person that he has ever really trusted (even above his family - parents included. If you remember correctly, he had a very difficult childhood.)What I provided for him was all encompassing - I provided the love, respect, security that he should have gotten from his mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, sister, aunts, uncles. He has never gotten that from them, but he had it from me for 19 years.

Without me in his life he loses not only the kids (daily) and I, he also loses my family (parents, sister, aunts, uncles, grandparents.). My family is more of a family to him than he his has ever been. Basically he loses his ENTIRE support system. Without me, he has NO ONE close to him. He's got friends, but none that are close. Mainly acquaintances is all that he has. This is obviously devastating to him. He thought I would ALWAYS be there. I've said before that he thinks he had a piece of gold with me. Along the way he has bit by bit picked it apart thrown it in the dirt and stomped on it. If I was so valuable to him, how do you treat someone so badly?? If I was so valuable, how can losing me not be enough of a wake up call for him??

IC / MC have said that his response to EA is very abnormal. I should also note that H cannot go 3-4 days w/o throwing OM in my face.

Just last night I said that he has ALWAYS expected me to forget his transgressions (PA, drugs, gambling, missing work, sexual harassments). I pointed out that his reaction to the ONE bad thing that I did (EA) was proof that this stuff cannot be forgotten but with proper treatment, communication, it can be dealt with enough to move on.

Right now he is very combative. Anything that we try to discuss he has an answer for. Very rarely can we have a productive conversation. I feel as if he has tunnel vision and cannot see the big picture. Everything in his eyes points to OM. OM is the cause of ALL of our problems from his perspective. If I walk in a room and say can you sit down and talk for a few minutes, you can see the blood drain from his face. He gets disgusted, mad, rolls his eyes, big sigh. He will avoid conflict at ALL COSTS.

At this point, he hasn't really acknowledged his limitations with BPD. He questions whether he even has it. Says that the only reason he's going to doc/taking meds is because of me. If it weren't for me he'd get off all of his meds. I should also say that I worry about his stability if I'm not around.

One thing that H and I can agree on is that we both view our M very differently. Although he will say that I've tried for years to get him to see that things weren't right in our M, he never really thought they were all that bad. He knew they weren't right, but not to this extent. We've come to the conclusion that this is because his EN's were being met, mine weren't.

This I know for sure about my H...he always has to learn things the hard way. I thought EA would be rock bottom for him. I thought that would possibly the "wakeup" call that was needed for him to address our problems in our M. (To those new to this thread, I DID NOT have an EA for the sole purpose of "waking him up") It has been 13 months since he found out about EA. It obviously appears not to have been the bottom for him, because after all of this time, the only thing he can do is point fingers at me. My fear is that his rock bottom will be going home after work to an empty house with no wife, kids or even a dog to greet you. Nobody to say "how was work Daddy." No support system, nobody to talk too, nobody who cares. He thinks things are bad, but we are still M. He can still come home to a W, kids and a dog who love him - even if it is strained. He still has that. I worry about him when/if that is gone. I think that will be his rock bottom, but I fear for myself that it will be too late.

Because of the arguments we had last night, this is what the plan is. He is going to call a psych doc. today. My hope is that he can help us. I know this won't be a short process, but I hope that he can provide us with some answers, relief and proper meds. If this fails, I am pretty sure that is the end of the road for us. I cannot live like this anymore, I just can't.

So how do you feel after last nights "discussion?"

What's going through your mind today as you think about it?

WHY ARE YOU STAYING when he has treated you so badly?
When he refuses to admit there's a problem.
When he blames you for all the troubles and his own bad behavior.

I'm asking as an exercise, not because I want an answer. You have already answered (mostly) in prior posts. Please don't spend much time on this, or think I want you to justify anything.

Sometimes reviewing those answers can help you last a little longer. Sometimes it helps you re think what you will do the next little while.

I't's difficult to know how to best help. We are fellow travelers, not experts.
I have said I know nothing about BPD. Others have said MB materials won't work unless he can be successfully treated.

My concern and my main thrust is to try to help you cope with what is happening. And....... to get you to a place of personal peace. I do have some experiance with that, as all of us are trying to find our way there.

Perhaps I have traveled that road a little further than you, perhaps I can assist with that part of your journey.

My main worry right now is that you will stay until it's too late, and then file.

I like plan B, even though there is no A. It would preserve some of your love for him, and also give him a chance to see what the future would be like alone.
I do remember what you have said about separation, and how you feel about it. Please don't ever think I'm trying to tell you what to do. Consider any requests or advice as suggestions. Realize you get to make decisions, and realize your choices are respected. Please don't ever feel you have to come and justify yourself. It's very important to me that you can come here and say what you think and what you feel. If you are not comfortable, it changes the way you write, and it will also affect what you will share, and what you will not.


You have a sharp mind. You seem to be good at weighing the choices.
I know you want to do what is right, and what is best. I feel that in all your communications here.

I also feel your great longing for peace. Perhaps we can help with that part.

Peace comes not from what goes on outside of us - though I admit it's easier to have peace when things are going well. True peace comes from knowing we are doing what is right. It comes from continuing to do what is right, even when it's difficult to do so.

I don't know how much you read - and knowing you have twins that are 5, there wouldn't be much free time. (grin)

If you have a good local library, see if they have "Mans search for meaning." Viktor E. Frankl

It can help you have proper perspective. Again, never feel obligated, you must be the sole judge of your time, and how you use it. I do think though, it can help in your own personal search for peace.

Can I change the subject?

What do the twins think of school?
Is it fun to talk to them when they get home?
Are they pretty vocal? Or do they have a hard time expressing themselves?

Does still seeking ask too many questions? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

SS

SS - I read your reply that day. I've been thinking - absorbing and I'm still not sure how to respond to it. You're trying so hard to help me and I deeply appreciate it. I don't want to waste your time with whining every day with no action or anything less than my best response. Still trying to find my way here.....

BTW, twins LOVE school. I knew they would. We spend quite a bit of time talking about their day. Who they ate lunch with, played @ recess with, if they got a smiley face (were good) for the day. So far it's been all smiley faces. Bound to be a frown sooner or later though! Thanks for asking. Also, they are VERY vocal. They're yakking as SOON as they get off of the bus about their day. My new favorite time of the day - hearing about theirs! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Twins are so much work, but such a blessing too. Built in friend and only one pregnancy. (Quoting my Wife)

So glad you have that bright spot in your life.

SS - I read your reply that day. I've been thinking - absorbing and I'm still not sure how to respond to it. You're trying so hard to help me and I deeply appreciate it. I don't want to waste your time with whining every day with no action or anything less than my best response. Still trying to find my way here.....

If you think I FEEL it would wast my time, you have misjudged me. Badly.
(Realize this was said with a big grin on my face.)

People come to MB for different reasons. Some need knowledge. "This is happening, what do I do?"
Some need support. "Tell me I'm not crazy."
Some need to journal - for themselves more than for anyone else.

Some just need to talk and there is no one in the "real" world to talk to.

When you first came, I think you need all of the above. These last few weeks I have been thinking about where you are now.
If you still need anything from MB
If so, what those needs might be.

The following is my opinion - I state it as fact, something I know, but that's kind of my "style."

You are pretty self contained. You are used to doing things for your self, not relying on anyone else to help you.
When you first married, you looked forward to a partnership, but you realized you didn't have that. I'm not sure how long it took, but I don't think it was more than a year or two. Perhaps not that long.

You resigned yourself to it. Figured you could make it work. AS time passed, it became more difficult. Things you used to ignore now started to bother you. You tried harder, but the feelings of discontent increase.

You build your home, and meet someone. All your dreams come rushing back. Life really could be wonderful again. Love really does exist. Dreams might come true. Hope returns.

Problem is, you are married to someone else. You are with the person who is the source of your discontent.
Stuck. Trapped.

What do you do?
Where can you go?

You found MB. Not sure how long you read, before you posted. Your first post was a cry for help. The pain was so vivid. The need so real.

Now you are back relying upon your self. You have a plan of sorts. You wait to see if he will respond, if he will help. It's hard to have faith he will. It's even hard to hope he will, after these long years spent trying to make it work with no end to the pain in sight.

I admit I worry about you. I believe the feelings are still there, but you just don't talk about them much right now.

You don't need to respond at all if it doesn't help YOU. Please don't worry about trying to please me. OK?

Don't worry about a "best response." Most of us with kids have toys on the floor most of the time. The house could be a little cleaner. There are a few dishes in the sink from after school snacks.

By tonight, the toys will be put away, the dishes will be done, and I might even sweep the porch, but if you visited NOW, I'm sure you would forgive me that I didn't do it before you came.
We don't expect perfection in posts. (another grin)

(Later edit) I got to thinking - it might be YOU expect perfection in what you do. I need to think on this some more, but I'll leave the rest as it stands.

Still trying to find my way here.....

That's what I am interrested in. That's what may do you the most good to talk about. Someone may make a comment that could help you. One never knows.

For now, I hope you feel support. I hope you feel love, and know someone cares about you. I hope you don't feel alone.

Thanks for the update. I'll try not to worry. Honest.
No guarantees though.

I just read the part about the twins again. Kids are so wonderful. Special? What's the right word? Kids are neat.
They are work, it's true, but good kind of work.


Callie, write if it helps. Don't feel obligated if it doesn't.

May God bless you with the best possible outcome.

SS

SS - WOW, I continue to be in awe of what an insightful person you are. You just hit the nail on the head with this post. I'm speechless....I'm speechless. The thing is, I've never seen the nail so clearly before this post. You summed me up for me. Thank you so much...Wow.

After what I went through with H yesterday, let me get my thoughts together and I will post an update. I am deeply grateful for your help and concern. Don't worry about me, I will be fine. Through it all I still have not lost myself. It is in here - I know that for sure. I just need to do some sorting and re-organizing for it to shine through. It is buried right now. I will admit that.

FWIW, I am somewhat of a perfectionist. No, I AM a perfectionist. I'm starting to think that it's part of the facade that I've been living. The "perfect picture" that I've subconsciously created for everyone else. In reality, I'd much rather have a dirty sink and a happy heart, than a clean sink and empty heart. I am just speechless here...I've never thought of that before.

I guess I don't really feel like I'm wasting your time - I just don't want to burden you with my problems. Your insight is valuable to me and I don't want to "waste" it on petty things. KWIM?

I just don't know what else to say...I just don't. Thank you so much for that insight. Give me some time and I'll gather my thoughts. Thank you again...Thanks.