Then they're willingly playing with fire. This friend wasn't, or he would never have gotten involved with your friends' W.

-ol' 2long

Also...

This is a horrible example, but it does prove a point.

The FOM in my life was an incessant flirter. His self-esteem was very low, and he got a "boost" from flirting with all the ladies. This was how my A started. He use to compliment me constantly, and tell folks in the office that I was his "little girlfriend." He made me feel very special (gak.) Little did I know, he was doing this with every other young woman not only in the office, but in his home life as well. Special indeed...

I was with FOM for three years. I use to get upset when he flirted, because I was under the mistaken impression that the only person "special" enough to get this sort of attention was me (how sick I was.) He told me he would stop because it hurt me and he "didn't need to anymore... he was so happy now" (double gak.)

I believed him.

Towards the end of the A, FOM was presenting at a conference and I decided to pop by and say hello. When I peeked in the room, another presenter was at the podium. FOM was in the back on a couch with a GORGEOUS young girl, and they were pressed up against each other. There was no one on this big huge couch but them, and they were hip to hip. He was blushing.

I nearly threw up.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... a person who behaves in this manner cannot just stop. It fills a need, and unless that lack is addressed in therapy it will always be a problem.

Your W has good intentions, but she can't stop herself, even if she "tries."

{While else would she be so disrespectful to you and your feelings when you request NC?}

This is one of the most difficult things I'm dealing with right now. She know's exactly how I feel when she is in touch with him, and how much it hurts me, but she is still doing it. I don't think she realizes fully yet that she can't be friends with OM. As long as they are just friends, it should be okay. And she said that the amount she will be talking to him or seeing him now will maybe be once or twice a month. I can't accept this and rebuild the trust in our marriage at the same time. I want that trust back so badly right now.

{Can your W be friends with OM while she is married to you? Are you really comfortable with that, Peter?}

I am totally not comfortable with it. I am not at the point yet, and I don't think we will get there, where I will have to make a decision on it. I am confident that she will, soon, establish NC. And I will help her to do this as much as she needs it.

Peter,

No consequences, not motivation. She will continue contact if only to PROVE that she can deal with it, and that you are wrong. Your discomfort is clearly not an issue to her, other than you expressing it makes her feel guilty about doing what she is going to do.

If she did not want to stop contact why did she change jobs.
Let me ask you this and then perhaps you can ask her.

If she cheated on you EVERY DAY would that be worse than her cheating on you ONCE a MONTH? If you cheated on her while you traveled, would it make much difference to her if it was once every 6 months, 1 time a month, every two weeks?

Cheating is really simply cheating. And frankly when her "friendship" went too far she gave up the right to be "just" fiends. You cannot be "just" friends with someone you have been intimate with emotionally or physically.

We are being hard on you about this for a reason. As you point out it has been many months and still she is contact, still she does not want to face the pain it has and will cause you, still she wants it her way. It cannot be HER way. Her way is going to lead to the end of your marriage.

She needs to know that. NO matter how much you love her, HER way will hurt you enough that you will either lose your spine and turn into something she cannot and will not love, or you will leave. IN either case the marriage as you want it, dream about, and as it was will be over.

We are hard on you for a simple reason, the alternative is just not going to be acceptable to you, no matter how understanding you think you are.

I will repeat: no consequences, no reason to change.

Think about that.

God Bless,

JL

Did not mean to thread jack but I disagree with you WAT. When I said to my wife that if she slept with another man that the marriage was over I meant it.




Your right I expected immediate results. What is the purpose of being married if your spouse is allowed to abuse you in this way? I went through a lot with my wife and I put up with a lot of crap. You have to when you are married and I do not expect her to be perfect.

But I do not think it is worth being married if they are sleeping with other people. She can do that when she is single so I have no tolerance.

I never had my needs met for all of the years I was married but I stayed with her. I never cheated on her and she was not a good wife. I just don't see the point of being married and allowing other people to have sex with your spouse. Most of the people that I know that were WS had something wrong inside them. The BS didn't drive them to it the WS did it on there own.


I would have forgiven a EA but not a PA. Yes I have actually been very happy since our split. I no longer have to watch and pay for her to cheat on me. And I think it is wrong to tell a BS that they BS that they must put up with this for a short period of time. If your spouse would rather sleep with other people why hold them hostage?

Would it not make more sense to move on and let them do that and to stop all of the pain and torture of the BS. I have found my life to be much more calm since I got away from the destructive force.

The strange thing is I put up with a lot over the years. I will not share my wife with another man. She made the choice for me. I think a person should get rid of the WS if they do not stop the affair right away. In my case this worked the best for me. The sad thing is she wants to come back now but I don't want her.

I wrote more but I am going to stop now. It is becoming a thread jack. I understand that some advocate letting a WS continue to cheat for a while until you can maybe talk them into stopping. I just don't think that is a worthwhile thing to do. Again, just my opinion.

Don't worry about being hard on me JL, I can take it. I think I have grown a much thicker skin since this happened and can handle things much better. I really appreciate your thoughtful, intelligent posts. They definitley help.

I agree that without consequences, there is no motivation. But my wife already has had several consequences to deal with, including having to leave a job and a team she loved, and probably the biggest one other than our marriage is how she feels about her spirituality. In her eyes, she has committed a huge sin, and she has to try and repair her relationship with God because of this. I can see her taking steps every day to do this, and it gives me a lot of hope that she will recover fully. She know how I feel about the OM, and I have told her as long as contact continues, I will not be able to fully recover, and therefore our marriage won't fully recover either. When I question her and get frustrated and angry, she knows that it is because she still is talking to OM. I don't think this is giving ultimatums or threats. It is expressing honestly how I feel. I always try to be understanding. She has a choice, just as she has always had a choice. If I didn't see things getting better and moving towards eventual NC, then things might be different. But they are moving, and I am willing to wait.

Take Care,

Peter:

Why not call one of the Harleys for MB coaching??

I think it's important 2 keep in mind that, while contact continues, your si2ation remains precarious. Good coaching is expensive, but the Harleys are very efficient - they'll cut 2 the chase quickly and are very good at getting the WS involved even when they're not willing at first. ...and it's a helluva lot cheaper than DV.

Also, it is true that you and the M won't fully recover if she stays in contact with the OM, but it's equally true that she won't be able 2 begin withdrawal from her addiction 2 him until she ends contact with him for life.

-ol 2long

Katie,
I can understand how your FOM needed the attention that he got from flirting because my wife gets a similar ego boost. But she does not flirt overtly. It is more just joking around and teasing, and not sexual. In the past, I always thought this was just a harmless way for her to get the ego boost that she was after. And I have always thought that she had very high self esteem, and wondered why she needed it. This is still a mystery to me, because she is so confident in most things in her life, I don't understand how the compliments she gets from other men can be something she needs. But on the other hand, I know when I get a compliment from another lady, it does always make me feel a little more special. I just never go looking for it, and wouldn't know how to even if I wanted. She knows that the flirting is something she needs to stop, and if need be, I will talk to her about counselling.

I have a question for you Katie, and any other FWS, if you don't mind. I am wondering when the A ended, how was NC established, and how long did it take for it to be 100%. Was it right away, or did it take time? Did you feel resentful towards your H for wanting NC? Did you think that you could "just be friends" with the FOM. I am just trying to better understand my wife and what she may be feeling now.

Take Care,

Peter:

I know plenty of people in my line of work who are "confident" but who are using their confidence as a smokescreen 2 protect their fragile egos.

And when someone like that gets more from the ego boosts than they do from their own sense of integrity, trouble soon follows.

I know you didn't ask me, but I have experience with the "friends" nonsense, as my W has insisted that she can be friends with Rat Meat even after having busted up his first marriage and almost breaking up ours. Even though d-day was 4 1/2 years ago, she still wanted me 2 give her permission 2 resume contact with RM just 3 months ago. We had a back and forth "discussion" about it that was very reminiscent of arguments we had right after d-day.

Look, there is no way a WS can wean themselves off an addiction 2 the OP. NC must be immediate and permanent. Cold 2rkey.

-ol' 2long

2long,

I agree that there are a lot of people in the world who come across as being very self confident, but are actually not. But I think after living with my wife for 15 years, and going through all the ups and downs of a marriage that I would know how self confident she is. Because of what has happened though, I wonder if I was wrong and she wasn't really confident. But then at the same time I say to myself I have seen her grow so much since I first met her. She has definitely grown in self confidence since then, a ton. So where is the disconnect. It is so confusing.

Thanks for your thought on the NC. I really like your name for the OM. Was it your idea? My wife came up with a name for her OM in the first few weeks after Dday. She thought if I called him Speck, as in a little speck of dust, it would make me realize that is what he meant to her. I thought that was a pretty good name too.

Thanks,

Im litle bit confused is this stritley an EA or EA/PAand now gone just to an EA??

It was/is strictly an EA.

ok! thanks for the clear up..

At least as far as she's told you. She's told you that there's more to tell, but hasn't told you yet, right?

During my recovery work, I learned a little something about self-esteem vs. self-confidence. They are completely different.

I can be completely self-confident in my work, but have low self-esteem when it comes to authority figures or members of the opposite sex. On the outside, at my job, I look like I have everything together... I'm witty, organized, and carry myself like a leader. When I go home, I drink a half a bottle of wine to deal with my self-esteem issues surrounding my relationship with my boss, because deep inside I feel if an authority figure tells me to do something, even if I don't agree, I have to do it. I can't have my own opinion... I'm not smart enough or good enough... this person above me is. I don't really recognize this deep seated belief, because it's so buried in the core of who I am. Instead, I suck it up and act out by being passive aggressive, avoiding the boss altogether and gossiping. When I get home, I get drunk. Everyone at work, however, thinks I kick #$@ (including my boss, because I'm always pleasing him or her.)

See the difference? (the above example isn't really me, by the way, lol.)

Also... it took me quite a few times to finally establish NC. I was thinking about posting the story about when I hit rock bottom... it's a doozy... maybe I will later.

I actually just talked to OM last month... he cornered me and I didn't recognize his truck. H was very upset... I was very upset... but I took measures so it never, ever happens again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Katie,

that helps me in understanding a little better what my wife's self confidence/self esteem issues might be. She is extremely confident in her talents and ablities that she is strong in, which are many, but I can see where she might have some self esteem issues.

When you were trying to establish NC, did you actually do the NC letter, or did you and the OM talk about and agree? I believe my wife may have talked to the OM about this, and just to think that they are talking about something this intimate still really hurts. I have no reason for this feeling, just my own paranoia.

Take Care,

Phwew!!!


The key point here for Peter's W is that you informed your H of this incident, and that you've taken steps 2 avoid another one.

-ol' 2long

This may be paranoia, but it's understandable.

Your W should NOT be discussing "no contact" with the OM. Think about it! "Contact" isn't "no contact."

Frankly, and simply stated: Your W owes you her fidelity and her intimacy - both emotional and physical - because she promised that 2 you when she married you. She owes the OM nothing but her complete silence.

NC between your W and the OM is something between YOU and HER. What you decide and how you plan 2 implement it is NONE OF THE OM's BUSINESS!

-ol' 2long

2long is absolutely correct, Peter...

At this point, since you are aware of the EA, a no contact letter should be sent.

I tried to establish NC with OM before I told my H. After that, it was just me and H always.

You and your W need to become a team working against the EA and OM.

I still think you talking to OMW would be a good idea as well.

Have you had a chance to look through Shirley Glass' book?

Oh... and 2long... the example wasn't really about me, but loosely based on someone who slightly resembles me, lol...

KM

2long and Katie,

I totally agree with you that the NC should be between me and my wife, and she shouldn't be discussing anything to do with our relationship or her EA with the OM. That is something I have told her from the beginning, that I haven't felt since this happened that we were on the same team. We have our team, but she is also still on OM's team as well by not cutting off all contact. She thinks in her eyes that she is over him, and that they can be casual friends.

I want to help her with this but I don't know how to get through to her that what she is still doing is wrong for me and our marriage. Somtimes I feel so frustrated when we talk and she can't see what I'm talking about. I often tell her to try and remember who she was before this happened and how she would have viewed this situation as an outsider. She would have felt very sorry for the people involved, and probably tried to help them. But she would have not condoned it in any way, and she certainly wouldn't have approved of them being friends after. And she agrees with me, but can't see it in the situation now!!!

We are leaving in a few hours for our weekend away, and I'm not sure if we'll be alone or with the kids yet. Something has come up where the kids might have to come. But regardless, I still am planning on talking to her. Does anyone have ideas on how I can get her to tell me the whole story, without being demanding and LB. I have told her a few times that I will give her time, and even after our conversation last Saturday I said I would wait until she was ready. But I can't stop thinking about the fact that there are more secrets that I don't know about. Should I just try and deal with this until she is ready? I think that I will tell her that I will not confront the OM, which is one reason she doesn't want to tell me. I have already told him what I thought of him and what he did, and if I never see or talk to him again that is fine.

Thanks everybody for your support,

Take Care,

P.S. Katie, I haven't recieved the Shirley Glass book yet. I ordered it from Chapter and I'm hoping that it comes today so that I can take it with us. That will definitely be a conversation starter when she sees it.