Thanks everyone,

You have helped me get through this weekend without doing something very foolish. I think I have been acting like a kid in the candy store since I found this information, and I just want to use it. I do so need to learn patience. I am going to contact PI today, and at least get name and address of ex-wife. I will appeal to her to help me. If she is agreeable, she will be able to give me other names, and #s. I will not reveal to my wife at this time about what I know. I will also contact an attorney to find out what I can do about custody. I don't want to take my son away from her, but likewise, I don't want her to take him into this situation. I will do my best to not even speak about OM to her other than in counceling, because it makes her so upset when I ask her to end this relationship that she just wants it more.

Thanks again, and I will keep reading and let you know how it's going. Glad to be here.

Quince,

Your situation is very similar to mine. I contacted the OM by phone, and all I got was denials. And he did exactly what you would expect, he told my wife I called him and she was furious.

I never threatened him, instead I implored him to see he was ruining my marriage and hurting my son; that he was married as well and should think about his own family.

None of this had any apparent effect on him, although my wife was very angry about it. But I didn't worry about that; remember, you want to make it clear that the affair is not acceptable.

The advice on this thread about exposure is good, but quite frankly, if your wife is like mine, nothing you can say or do will stop the affair. Exposure may speed up the eventual burnout of it, but I'm afraid there isn't much else you can do.

A lot of people on this site put a premium on finding proof of the affair, but unless you live in a state in which you must find some sort of "fault" for your divorce, it will do little more than keep you busy trying to discover what she is doing and what she has done.

I know just about everything going on "behind my back" and my wife knows it, but it hasn't stopped anything from happening. At most, it has inconvenienced her.

I wish I could offer you more help. I will say you have a slightly better than 50% chance of getting your wife back if you are very careful in your Plan A/B approach.

Patience seems to be the key word in these situations.

Quince, don't ask the ex-wife for phone #'s because she is likely to call up the OM and tell him your plan. She isn't likely to tell you anyway.

Please just call the PI and tell him you need the names, addresses and phone #s of his family members and anyone else you can think of.

You did good making it through the weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Called the PI this morning, and gave him my information. He calls me back a couple hours later and tells me that this guy just doesn't exist. Nothing was coming up for that address. Must be a rental, and he probably hasn't lived there long. So I told him the guys brothers name, and bingo he found him. I think the PI was so excited himself, he started reading off all kinds of things to me from his background. I am going to go to his office tomorrow, and get the information. Still not sure what it will tell me. Not sure if it will help. Starting to wonder if the whole family may not be a clan of con artists or something. This guy has moved around a lot. He has countless judgements against him. filed bankrupcy in 03, and sounds like he hasn't worked for quite a few years. Couple that with frequent trips to Florida, and it makes you wonder if someone isn't trafficking in something. I am also going to make an appt to see an attorney. I have to find out how to protect my money, I think she may already have given him some, and we ain't got much. If she did give him money, it will be hard for me not to go down there and demand it back.(but I am sure I can control myself) She just might have to be relieved of all responsibilities related to our business until this is over.

One positive note, She calls me this morning and asked if she can take our MC appt to herself tomorrow. She then says "not to get your hopes up about reconciling, but the grass is not greener on the other side." I didn't say it, but I looked up to heaven and mouthed the words "thank you" Nevertheless, I will continue with my plans, until this affair is over. Then hopefully I can help my wife to heal from all the crap.

One thought crossed my mind. Don't think it's a good idea right now, but if I were to find something in his background that totally doesn't mesh with what she has said, would it be possible to show her his information and get her to see that he is lying to her? I know it probably wouldn't work unless she is already having second thoughts. But it sounds like she just might be doing that. Don't want to let her know unless it would be to my advantage. Thought about trying to grill her about this guy. That would be hard to do, because she doesn't want me to talk about it.

Don't share info with the WS. She will just run and give it to the OM. That w/b dangerous.

Keep your cool and your source silent.

L.

Quince,

If this guy has a shady past and/or suspected dealings with drugs or thugs or the like, I'm not sure I agree that this should be hidden from the ex. You said she would die before she'd let you have sole custody of your son...well, I hope she'd likewise die before she'd let some pond scum influence or injure your son. The boy's safety must come first above everything. If there is even the slightest chance that this loser could harm your son in some fashion, I think in good conscience you must tell her what you know.

Her statement about grass not being greener implies she may already know this guy has less than a sterling reputation. Get an attorney's advice as planned but do whatever you can to keep the boy safe in the meantime. Perhaps suggest to your wife that your son go to Grandma's or stay at another neutral relative's house while you two are hashing this out. Safe territory for the boy, and that frees up your own energy to concentrate on what must be done.

Best wishes,

~Silverwraith

Q - talk to a lawyer today.

What were the terms of your separation when she left?

Oh, you don't have anything legal?

Bingo.


By revealing consequences.

Go to a lawyer and get the scoop on what's available to you to establish a legal separation that covers all financial and property issues as well as child custody. Turn over all the info from the PI to the lawyer and ask him/her about what type of correspondence can be sent to OM that indicates that a Restraining Order or other legal owie can be inflicted upon him.

JMHO

So, I made her mad yesterday morning. That is nothing new, and I think as long as she gets mad at me, she must still love me a little. Told her I had an appointment to councel with someone, and she was certain that I was seeing a lawyer. This really upset her, and nothing I said would change her mind. Funny, if I grilled her about where she was going she'd tell me to mind my own business.

Got my background check, doesn't look like much I could use against him. It chock full of names, but no relationship info. PI says that this background makes it look like he is hiding something. PI would love to take more of my money to dig deeper. I will wait for now, and look into what I have. I am also trying to find a lawyer. I just don't trust them, so I don't know who to talk to.

Anyway, she came back from MC appt, and invited me into her house. She sat me down, and told me. "in my mind, I do not love you" "In my mind, our marriage ended a looong time ago" "I am willing to go on dates with you sometimes"
I know that she doesn't really want to date me. I know that the MC got her to say these things, but I don't care where it comes from I will work with it. Patience and Plan A are my best steps here.

It appears, that the OM is doing his best to hang himself, and I don't want to mess things up by being pushy. I do believe that she has been seriously thinking about dumping him. I will keep praying for that.

She has agreed to take a short trip to the ocean with me and our son. She wants separate rooms of course. I can't blame her, I know that the sight of me innocently sleeping would be too much temptation for her.

Feels good to be working toward a goal.

Quince - this is straight from the WS script. A perfect recital. I doubt the MC got her to say this.

DO NOT tell her you're going to talk to an attorney.

Clarify that you're going to talk to a counselor.


Why do you think this? - she's thinking about dumping him?

Regardless, do not interfere with the affair other than exposure. They easily self destruct and a BS's interference (other than exposure) can do more harm than good.

How does she intend to explain separate rooms to your son? Don't you try to do it for her.

WAT

ok, Quince, do not make the mistake of doing NOTHING just because she is being a little nice to you. Your goal is to save your marriage, not to make her treat you nice for a day. That will get you nothing so don't let her distract you from your mission.

Your mission is to EXPOSE the affair to the OM's family, particularly his parents and his closer sibs. Did you get his parents info?


What this means is that she wants you to be her "friend" and take it quietly while she screws you over. Would you have a "friend" who lies to you and cheats on you? Of course you wouldn't! Tell her you are not interested in playing boyfriend, but are only interested in being her HUSBAND when she ends her AFFAIR.

Expose this affair, Quince. Kill this affair and quit allowing yourself to be diverted by a crumb or the fear of her anger. Stick to the plan, soldier!

OK, first the trip is already off, I probably knew that would happen. She couldn't possibly stand to be with me for that much time without an escape route. Fine with me really, because I was not about to get separate rooms at seaside prices. We are going to take our son to a movie this weekend. This is something we have done a few times since she moved out, and I guess it will give me an idea of her attitude about the whole thing.

I believe that the first two of her three sentences were her own twisted ideas. She made a point of saying it was the MC's idea to do the dating thing. Her idea of dating will certainly include taking our son somewhere. I am sure she will not let me take her out alone. I believe that she doubts her lack of love for me, and that is good. But she will stop at nothing to ensure that I cannot get the chance to change her mind.

As far as doing nothing about the affair. Her little offer DID manage to help me stop obsessing about the OM. The reason I think OM may be hanging himself, is that He is pressuring her. I have been pressuring her, and it has done little but make her cry and drive her crazy. It HAS NOT done me any good. It has only driven her deeper towards him. The saving grace is that he is pressuring her too, and that must drive her back a little. Told her I believe that she will be hurt by this relationship, and she said that maybe she will be but she will have to deal with it. I think, OK, but I must protect my son from this.

In the information that I got from the PI, I believe I have figured out who his mother is. She owned at least one of the many houses he has lived in over the years, and looking at everything together, she is the obvious one. Unfortunately I will only know for sure by asking if she is his mother. All of the other names, and there are many, give no clue as to how they may be related. So it would appear that I have only his mother to reveal to. Since my wife has mentioned on more than one occasion that they were going to his mothers, I can only hope that they are close. I asked her once if his mother knew she was still married. She mumbled something about being separated. So the woman does not know that we were supposed to be reconciling our marriage when her son came waltzing into the picture, and gave my wife an apparently easy way out of her problem.

Don't know how to go about revealing to this woman though. I was thinking that since the OM is leaving this weekend on a trip, It might be a good time to contact her. This might give her time to think before she talks to him. But, what do I say to her? How do I say it? What if she doesn't care? I just wish I could find the ex-girlfriend. I know that she tried to warn my wife off when they started seeing each other. I really want to know what she has to say.

Hey, keep up the good work. You are helping me so much more than I can say. God be with you.
Q

Do not TELL her anything.

Do not predict her future to her. Let your actions reveal bits about her future that you can control - yourself.

Seen a lawyer yet?

Read up on Plan B.

WAT

I must admit that I am scared as ****** to call this man's mother. I keep second guessing myself. I tell myself that I need to wait and get more information. I need to find at least one or two more people before I call, because when I call it is all out of the bag. My Wife will know that I know, and all ****** will break loose.

We have had some really good communication this week. I have been talking to her, and texting her. Not that I think it is changing anything, but it is nice to talk to her without tension for a little while.

The OM is on another trip, and I wonder if it will benefit me to expose while he is gone. I also was thinking I just might give him a brief call after exposing to his mom. Just to let him know that I know who he is, and that I told his mommy on him.

I have decided on a lawyer, but I have to make an appt. I don't know if he will take my case, but he helped my ex-sisterinlaw put the screws to my brother pretty good.

Any advise about a script I could use for exposure would really help. I am also working on a letter to give to my wife for Plan A. remaining positive, and trusting in god to give me a miracle.

What do you mean by this? Your wife will know that you know WHAT?

I know it is scary to expose the affair, but you are not going to save your marriage sitting around being scared. Write out a script and then start calling the OM's family and any other exposure targets.

Yes, your w will get mad. She is SUPPOSED to get mad when you interfere with her affair. But your marriage can withstand some temporary anger, it can't withstand an affair. So take your pick.

Type up some talking points and lay them in front of you when you call the OM's family. Script out and practice your opening statement with something like:

"My name is Quince and I am the husband of Mrs Quince. We have been married for XYZ years and have a small child. My wife is currently having an affair with your son and I am calling to ask for your help in breaking this up so I can save my marriage. I am asking you to ask your son to leave my wife alone. As long as he is having relations with my W, reconciliation is hopeless."

I would suggest only calling a lawyer if a) you need to protect your assets and b) you want a divorce. It's sort of inconsistent to contact a lawyer when you say you want to save your marriage.

Have you read any of the Harley material, particularly Surviving an Affair? Its very important that you read this book so you understand why we are telling you what we are telling you. Alot of this is not going to make any sense unless you have that foundation.

MelodyLane,

You are right. I keep putting this off because I keep thinking that I need to get her to the MC one more time before I unleash my plan. Not that it will do any good, but I guess I was thinking that somehow I could explain to her how I feel about PlanA while with the MC in the hopes that the environment might make her a little more receptive. I also am still very uneducated about what I am doing. I will order the book today, and I will read it before I put my plan in action. (I wish I could buy it in PDF format, so I could have it today) This of course will take a few days, and we will have our appt. on Tuesday. I also wasn't sure about the status of her affair, as I have avoided talking to her about it this week. I got my answer the other day, when he called while I was there. She won't answer when I am there. She says she doesn't want to rub my nose in it. Remember, she is so convinced that this is not an affair, and my saying it is, is a real sore spot for her. I'd be willing to bet that you would suggest that I call it that every chance I get. Am I right?

When I say that my wife will know that I know, I think that I have been hoping that I wouldn't have to expose the fact that I am being dishonest with her. I also feel that I will lose a chance to use what I have to my advantage. I have two people to expose to. Only two. I fear that they (OM and WW) will get to anyone else before I can reach them. I know, foolish right? So now, I am not sure if I should call these people right away, or wait for the book, and do it later this week. OM is out of the state until at least next Sunday. I don't know if this buys me time, or if I am wasting the best time I have. (see what I mean? always second guessing.)

Please bear with me, and don't let my indecision discourage your effort. I am so ready, willing and able to expose, I am just still quite ignorant of the proper method.

As far as the lawyer, I have been encouraged to see one on this thread. I probably could put it off until I am certain that I need to move to PlanB. I am mostly concerned with the safety of my son. I do not want her taking my son to this man's house. And I want to educate myself on what kind of Stick I can use to encourage her to think about the consequences of this relationship.

Huh?

How are you being dishonest with her?

You mean your snooping?

Get a grip, fella. SHE'S having an AFFAIR!!

Your snooping is simply affair research! She's denied anything "wrong" is happening, right? Duh!

Bust her!!

Bust her during the MC - if you get the chance, then stop wasting MC $$.

You don't have to tell her how you know - just that you know. 100% guaranteed she'll accuse you of invading her privacy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But make her wonder how you know. Make her squirm.

Being a WS takes WAY more energy than being a BS. Wear it down. Sorta like the tortoise and the hare. Guess which one you need to be?

Quince, what are you being dishonest about?? I must have missed this part.

Secondly, Plan A is not something YOU EVER DISCUSS WITH YOUR SPOUSE. It is just something for you to know about and for you to do.

Marraige counseling is cute and all but it is not magic and will be of no use as long as she is in an affair. The purpose of MC is to RECOVER the marriage, not to break up affairs.

Have you not confronted her with the fact that you know this is an affair? And yes, you should call it what it is: AN AFFAIR.

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Papperband

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

You guys are both so right, and don't think that the message is not getting through. I am piecing together what you tell me, and I AM making progress. I ordered the book. I hope it arrives quickly.

I am not as scared as I may come off. I am just trying to calculate too much, I think. I don't want to show my hand until it will do it's best, but the longer I hold it, the weaker it becomes. I am thinking about just calling his mother tonight or tomorrow. I really don't have anyone else to call. Rather small exposure huh.

We went to the movies today. My Wife, son and I. Of course you can imagine her attitude about the whole thing, and I knew it was going to be that way. I already knew from you guys that it is a waste of time to "date" her while she is still in the affair. But, we went to the show, and shopped a little bit. Then when it came time to find something to eat, she commented about being more open to chinese food now. Well of course I had to ask why "I" could never get her to try chinese, and it went from there.

It wasn't an argument. I simply started talking to her about how I believe that we can save this marriage and this family. She is so against the idea, and I think one of her biggest fears is that the anger and resentment will return. I cannot convince her that they won't in any other way than time and good performance. But it is a big hurdle. Of course the biggest hurdle, the OM, is still in the picture, and everything else may be a waste of breath until he is gone. I do not mince words when it comes to calling the affair an affair. She on the other hand gets mad as ****** when I call it that. She tells me that she doesn't have any guilt about it now. She did, at first, but not now. I believe that she is lying. That in itself makes her angry. I won't believe her when she says that she doesn't love me. I told her, "when you moved out, you said,""I love you, but I'm not in love with you"" now you say that you haven't loved me for a long time."

Now if our marriage had been in good standing before this affair started, I think the standards would apply better. Unfortunatly, our history is full of pain because we never dealt with the first round of affairs properly. She just seems to downright hate me. I know that it is still affair speak when she says the things she says. I know that my only hope is to follow this plan, I just wonder if some of it will hold up because she does have "some" valid arguments. Nonetheless, I will persevere.

I remained calm, and even when she got really upset i did not react back. At one point I did get frustrated, and I simply told her that I was frustrated. I think I am making her think though, because she had to make a point of telling me she's not attracted to me anymore. I simply told her that I understand but it will come.

Time we got back to her house, her stomach hurt, and she acted like she was going to throw up. I told her that I do not want to hurt her, but I cannot just let her go. I have to fight for this family. I told her that I know I haven't been the man she needed in the past, but I am now the man she needs. I cannot be the man she needs if I just let her go. I told her that I know I upset her, and I will upset her more, but everything I do is because I love her.

She said she will file for divorce tomorrow. She said if it would get me to leave her alone she will file. I told her to go ahead and file, but I won't leave her alone.

Please understand that all of this was said with care, and thoughtfullness on my part. I never said anything malicious or mean. I love this woman, and I want to save this marriage.

So, down to brass tacks. Thanks for the carrot and stick. I will try to adhere to it as best I can. I will not tell her anything. I will call his mother, and his brother. I may call him and simply tell him I want him to stop having an affair with my wife. When she comes at me, I will not apologize, I will simply tell her that I am trying to save the marriage.

thanks,
q

Q - the hard part to accept for many newcomers to this war is that a BS cannot directly convince a WS of anything in the usual manner - using logic and reason. It simply doesn't work because anything the BS says - by definition - is wrong or doesn't apply to the WS.

We don't call 'em alien abductees for nuthin.

It is like their brains have been scrambled in some cosmic experiment.

So, your attempts to reason with her are met with resistence and negativity. You are making too much sense which conflicts with her new world view.

Plan A recognizes this phenomena and has a BS focus on fixing the bad juju they brought to the marriage - however large or small. Just fix it. The WS will notice without being told. Apparently, the brain experiments on the Mothership do not affect the observational skills of the WS - but enhance their memories of trivial events in marital history. These events will be replayed in a desperate effort by the WS to scapegoat the BS as the scourge of the earth. When this happens, you know you're making progress. The weirder and more bizarre the BS scapegoating and WS behavior becomes, the more desperate they are to justify their actions. Think about it and it makes sense.

Quit trying to convince her she's all hosed up. Show her you're a smart and improved choice to stick with.

WAT