You know what, J?

Think about HOFS... and when you feel compelled to give your opinion about something he should do (that is, *if* you struggle with this as many wives do! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)... now, instead of giving your opinion... you pray for him to make the right decision and give the outcome to God... which accomplishes two things, actually three: One, it lifts up him up... Two, it doesn't bring him down... Three, it removes the burden from you.

If'n this all works as it should, you will have the following result: You have given the burden to God and your H to solve, and have removed yourself from the outcome. In a perfect world, your partner will make the *correct choice* and all will be right with the world. In the worst case, your partner makes a wrong decision, and when in the past you might have been angry or bitter about it (especially if you'd told him what he *should* do and he hadn't)... now you have peace. It doesn't remove the CONSEQUENCES of his choice, but it is on his shoulders, not yours.

You may be thinking "Why should he carry the burden alone?"... as a Christian, it is because the husband is the leader of the household. This doesn't mean he lords his authority or that he is free to abuse anyone... and a lot of men and women (Christian or secular) do NOT agree or accept the authority.

While I'm sure that a praying wife can gain valuable insight and that her H can be uplifted and make good choices whether or not either of them believe in what I'm talking about here... I guess this why the study is for Christian wives. Personally, I have some difficulty... not as much with the concept, but with the reality of it. That's part of what we'll be studying, I know.

I don't buy into a lot of things my church taught me, J, and I look forward to doing a study like this with other women who want to know God's leading. You are OF COURSE, welcome and encouraged to be here.

PS: There is always room for girls who love to play in the sun!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm in,

Now to find the book - who has it? Oh well half price books will have another copy ...

Linda

Welcome silverpool!

Good question... who has the book already?

I'm looking for my copy of the book - but I would love to do this with you.

Heh. This much, anyway, is -not- difficult.


So what about when he asks my advice?


Where does right action fit into this?


All good things. Doesn't this approach also abrogate responsibility for my own destiny and personal actions?


Seems like my husband's decisions would already be his responsibility, wouldn't they?


Uhm.... so I'm letting go of the outcome and deciding not to participate in the process of the marriage? Uhm. Uhm. Uhm.

I wonder what Harley would say about that.

I wonder what Cerri would say about that. (Wait, no, I can imagine what she would say pretty easily. *snicker* Ahem. Right.)


Hum. Yeah, I read this on MM's thread about the roles of husbands and wives. I have a hard time with it. Perhaps it's because I don't actually trust anyone besides me.


If I were busy raising fifteen children on my own, I could see how I might agree that the man should make the overall decisions on other stuff. Within certain bounds of acceptable behavior, of course -- abuse, neglect, infidelity, addiction would be on the "no you can't make that choice" list, for example. I suspect Christians would say that even that wasn't my responsibility, because the Bible already says that stuff isn't okay so the other "men" in charge should take care of it, or something like that.

And this is correct because why?

Oh, right. I remember now. Patriarchal destruction of the Goddess archetype. (Channeling Cerridwen for a minute there.)

*sigh*

I do agree with letting go of outcomes. I do not agree with letting go of personal responsibility for right action. My own right action, not anyone else's.


I actually think that about half the concept is correct. Working for (praying for) someone else to be grounded and compassionate in his or her responsible choices is a very good thing indeed. And letting go of the need to control someone else is also a very good thing.

It's the whole "husband as the boss of me" thing that makes me think I have COOTIES again. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEK. *squirm*


Thanks! I ordered the book from half.com today. It'll be interesting. I suspect I'll have to hold my nose and do several banishing rituals to be able to read some of it. It's always good to learn, though.


It's too hot to play in the sun right now! 98 degrees and cooking. Sigh.

Hi Cheryl, and Welcome!

I have Monday off (a civil holiday in Canada) so I will begin our discussion on Chapter One (His Wife) then…

JustJ (and this will be of interest to everyone else, too, I think)~~

I was going to quote your questions and answer them (and they’re excellent questions) but here’s what I’ve decided is the best course of action at this time: To be still and let the book answer…

Your questions, I believe, will be answered throughout this study… and by someone who has a lot more experience than I do. I could answer, but it would be my opinion only, and while my opinion is important (as all of our opinions are <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) it is not the crux of our study. The author and her book, along with the Bible, are the crux.

J, I understand your aversion (if that’s the right word) to the idea that anyone else has control over or carries a responsibility for you (us). We’re adults, of course.

One thing I did NOT say is that you won't "participate in the marriage"... on the contrary, you WILL. The praying wife, as I remember, is not meekly standing in corners or hiding... though she may have a prayer "closet"... and by that I mean, a quiet place that she goes to talk with God (and listen!). I don't think the author ever says that we are not to have an opinion, either. How we share our opinion will certainly be discussed, and I believe it is in the first chapter. You've gotta know that if Harley set up and/or blessed this section of the forum, it's not something he'd be against. The whole forum actually BEGAN as a place to discuss THIS BOOK. (Caps for emphesis, of course).

So, it's all good, as far as I can see... and I totally look forward to seeing what will happen for all of us!

One final thought to everyone: The only reason I've kind of stepped up to lead this study is because I wanted some friendship, discussion and communion with women who were interested in doing this with me. ""WITH me"" being the operative phrase. I am not here alone, and I expect (and fervently HOPE) that each of you will have a LOT to offer us.

If at any time anyone wants to write their heart about what THEY are learning, seeing and/or feeling, I can't say it enough: RUN WITH IT.

Rabbit trails, threadjacks and sticking to one topic until we all feel comfortable moving ahead are fine.

See you on Monday, Ladies!

Just J

As Christians we believe that there is an order in our lives and it comes from the Bible passage:

Ephesians 5:22-33
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[b] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.


Now what some people do is they take this passage and twist it to their own purpose. For me and my understanding it does not mean that my husband is better than me because no human is better than the other. We are all equal. However a marriage works better when we follow this guidance.

In my marriage I have been the leader for far to many years because my spouse did not follow this. One day he walked into our house and was discussing with me why our house seemed to be in such chaos. That week we had a sermon at our church and in that sermon our Pastor discussed this chapter and several others. He said that this is the way God designed it and when it is out of order there is choas in the house. Because when the husband does not lead the wife has to step out of her role and this causes chaos. And sure enough it did in our family.

You offer it to him with respect. It doesn't mean you are a statue in your own marriage without opinions. It does mean to not say "I think thats a stupid idea and I have a better one." It means presenting your idea respectfully. It also means praying about whatever decision you need to make. Then if your husband still chooses to follow his plan then the consequences are for him to deal with, yes even if it affects you. However we all make wrong decisions at times and mistakes. We can offer grace at this time or point the finger and build up resentment and roadblocks to the marriage.

As a Christian I fully trust in God with my life. I don't trust just myself as I make mistakes huge mistakes. I listen to what others say, I check that against what I know, pray and then try to make the best decisions. I it's hard to just trust yourself, would make it pretty lonely for me. The one thing about trust is that everyone is going to fail you, everyone, even yourself. However God never fails.


My spouse was overseas, spending a large amount of inappropriate time with another woman. I call it an EA. Now during this choice I had several choices to make. My first one was to let him know how I felt, how wrong he was yada yada yada. The only thing that did was to pushes him closer to her, cause him to lie to me more and put a huge wedge in between us because all's he heard from his wife was how wrong he was, and on and on and on. Well no wonder he didn't want to email me, or talk to me on the phone. So once I stop doing what I thought was right, once I started praying about and had others praying, I started hearing "Be still, do nothing." At first I was like no way that's not me I can fix this. Well guess what I could not. So I was still, I prayed others prayed and quickly their time spent together stopped. It has taken several more years for my husband to understand what he was doing and just how wrong it was. Had I not started to pray, had I not listened to God's leading, I know that at this time I would be divorced. So no it doesn't mean we do nothing.

You made me laugh here and I really needed that, thanks. I think that's what a lot of people get caught up in. And that's not the way to look at it. You are still you, with ideas, opinions, suggestions and sometimes we offer and have very good ones. It's how we handle giving those and what we do if our spouse decides he feels that's not quite right for our family. My spouse gives my voice a lot of merit in our family. Sometimes he takes what I say and decides that's the way to go and sometimes not and I'm ok with that. Because I know that a lot of times I am wrong, because of maybe the way I was looking at the situation and the way he is looking at it.

I hope some of this helps. I'm not very good at discussing some of this and this will help. Plus sometimes I write one thing when I mean another. My kids always laugh at me because when I speak a word that totally makes no sense comes out of my mouth. No clue how or why it just does. So if something doesn't make sense let me know. or is totally confusing. Your questions definitely make me think about why I believe what I believe.

I've read the intro. I'm not sure if we are supposed to talk personally here or just theolgy. I'm going for personal for now because other than our MC - I don't have anyone to really talk through this stuff with. But if that's not the idea - I can keep it more theoretical.

See I've gone through this book before - I thought if I just go through this and pray it - than God will fix my dh. That wasn't the right attitude and it didn't work.

I'm dubious still that even prayer will change my dh. I guess I feel like I could pray all I want but he still makes his own choices and the best I can hope for is changing my heart. Because I will say here - my heart is pretty hard and cynical right now - to God and my dh.

It is hard to think that we can actually have a good marriage or that I can actually feel God's presense or even just be at peace. So much has gone down between us from the start of our relationship - which did not start in a Godly way, "shotgun" wedding, and all the issues/conflict we have been through. Stormie's mentioning rage as her dh's issue resonates with me because that is the most serious issue that we are dealing with is my dh's rage and anger management (being addressed in counselling).

I don't expect dh to pray for me or with me. Because he doesn't - he's not comfortable to. I've resented that - esp when he can pray at church in front of people - but not with me or in front of me. So somewhere along the line I've pretty much stopped praying altogether and I don't like who I'm becoming. I guess I feel like I'm headed to "the dark side" and that's not where I want to be.

So my goal here is as the book said

"The purpose is to ask God to make your heart right, to show you how to be a good wife, share the burdens of your soul and seek God's blessing on your husband". pg 21

I have been at the point for a long time now - where if it weren't for the kids - I would have left a long, long time ago. On page 16/17 - she talks about that picture of what life would be like for the kids with divorce and that's exactly why I'm still in my marriage. Same on page 17 - where she says "I don't want to pray for him. I don't want to ask God to bless him. I only want God to strike his heart with lightning and convict him of how cruel he has been". I relate to that - MC is helping some - but I still hold a ton of unforgiveness to my dh. So I"m hoping that somehow this study, praying for dh anyway, and the interaction with people here (rather than reading it alone like I did 4 years ago) - will help me have not such a hard heart and come back closer to God.

I wonder if this might get even more personal than normal discussions and if we would want to set up an email group for discussions?

People might feel more comfortable in emails that are not public like these posts.

if we want to do that, let me know. I would be happy to set it up.

{{mamacheryl}} Thanks for sharing so much!!!

i think a bit of both, personal and therotical, is good.

i have some personal reactions to what i have read so far too. lack of time right now, i'll try to share more on monday.

Just a couple of thoughts, because it's before work and I don't have a lot of time.

bj~ YES! This is EXACTLY why I wanted to do this study WITH women, not just by myself.

cheryl~ Talk about anything, everything, and whatever you feel led to go...

mf~ Majority will rule on the question of whether or not to move this to a private forum, but my "vote" is to stay here. I believe that anyone who does venture over here would be blessed by the discussion... and would allow for anyone who wants to join us to do so easily.

I got the book and began reading it today. I hadn't realized that I was praying the wrong way. I didn't tell God my feelings, and my prayers were short and actually were more for me, not for him.

I prayed today after reading just the first bit of the book, I told God that I had not been praying correctly, that my prayers for my husband had been selfish, that I wasn't praying for him, but more for me. I apologized to the Lord for my lack of diligence in my prayers lately, I asked the Lord to remove the walls from around my heart and to make it clean so that I would be able to pray FOR my husband and not myself.

I found myself guilty of the same prayers Stormie was talking about "Please change him Lord" "Please soften his heart to our marriage and our family" I was not praying for HIM I was praying for ME.

Today I asked the Lord to show me the path, to help me to understand the things that are keeping my husband locked into place and not letting him move forward, I asked him to help my husband to forgive me, and to also help me forgive him.

I told the Lord that I have on many occasions prayed that he take control of my marriage, but that I was guilty of trying to manipulate my husband by the things I said and did. I was praying for something and then directly contradicting it with my actions.

I am so thankful that the Lord led me to this thread.

Thank You and God Bless You,

-Caren

JustJ and others, I am sorry my last post came out in all bold. Not sure how I did that, hopefully I can go back and fix it.

Mamacheryl: I can only tell you what personally happened to me. I have to admit that yes at times my prayers were and sometimes still are selfish prayers. I have discussions with God at all times, shower, driving, lawn mowing(which is awesome because the sound drives out all the other noise).

What I have come to realize is that the only one that I can change is me. That I had to change my heart and those areas that I was being disrespectful, and unloving to my spouse. I also had to know that I could not change my spouse, because every time I tried to manipulate him to my ways it always backfired and always made things worse. Once I truly let go was when I started seeing things happen with my spouse.

This did not occur on the first, second or third time, it has evolved over 5long years and in some areas 13 years. One of my prayers used to be at the time that I was really struggling with anger towards my spouse was "for God to show my husband his love through me", and "for me to love my husband the way God wanted me to." Because the way things were back then I just felt I did not have the ability to do it. I was dealing with so much hurt, anger, bitterness, entitlement.

Sometimes it is very hard to find that time to pray. And of course Satan does not want you to pray. Because one of his goals is to destroy marriages because if he can destroy a marriage he can take down many people, cause hurt and pain for a long time.

There are several things I have learned over the years. One was I was not the person I should have been, I see that now and I am glad for some of the changes I have made. By my changing and softening of my heart towards my spouse it has allowed him to tell me things that have happened to him that gives me new insight into him. Stuff he never felt safe to tell me before and that was due to my actions. I have also found a peace in my life that I never knew before, knowing that no matter what is going on in my life, I will be ok.

I need to go as hubby surprised me by coming home early.

Oooooo, dear, Coooties cooties cooties cooties. Eeeeeek.

All right. Calling in a few angels for cleansing. I -will- be better soon, promise. *Squirm* *shudder*

[Pause. Ground. Connect. Breathe. Breathe. Breathe.]

Okay.

That quote from the bible did it to me. The husband as the head of the marriage as Christ is the head of the husband. MM presented it as a military order sort of thing. The private reports to the corporal who reports to the sergeant who reports to the master sergeant, or whatever.

*squirm*

MMMMMkay.

A hierarchical structure is one of the best ways to build a large organization. In this case, a Church. Individual is part of a unit known as "family." In "family," XY chromosome designated as lead, XX designated as, hmm, sub-lead, children designated as "followers and protected."

XY (lead) is also subordinate to larger unit known as "congregation," led by another XY known as "priest." Priest is part of hierarchy known as "Church," structure variable but usually includes prelates, bishops, and sometimes Cardinals and Popes... all XY.

Sociologically a hierarchical structure makes sense. However, I've yet to see a single bit of evidence that suggested that a man is the most appropriate person for any of the male-only roles. And a hierarchy that refuses to "promote" someone capable of performing the role solely because of her sex is, in my view, inherently suspect.

Even if it wasn't intended that way, much of it has been used to keep women from recognizing and taking ownership of their very real innate strength and power. It's been less than 100 years since women in the United States won the right to vote. In other parts of the world, we are still only one step better than slaves.

So I am suspicious when I hear this same line of propaganda repeated, no matter what the context.

Having said that, well, okay, now I'll tell you all a secret.

I would love it if someone else took the responsibility for making the decisions. In my first marriage, I was the head of my household. Being the leader is hard, often thankless work. I didn't really want the job, but I did it well and we had a very good marriage for a long time. (Except for the problem of inviting other people into it, which eventually led to its destruction. Err, does anyone here not know my story? My ex is female, we have a daughter, the story is complicated and triggers all kinds of people to rant at me, if you want to know more send me e-mail and I'll see if I can dig up the links.)

So. I've been the head of the household. I've watched my family disintegrate. Nearly sixteen years later, if someone else wants the job -- and can show his or her ability in the role -- that is fine with me.

I'm reminded of a night when HoFS and I were having dinner on his back porch. I was talking about something and said, "So if I bring you one of these, then here's what I'd like you to do..."

And he looked up at me and met my eyes and said, "I know what to do." No more. But the confidence in his tone made clear that he -did- know. So I let go of worrying about that part of it and, well....

Let's just say that the whole situations turned out -very- well for all concerned.

Hum.

So.

Hierarchy.

The boss of me is going to have to be a pretty special human being. I've met one who qualifies, I think. It's a good thing he's had to practice his leadership skills on teenagers for a while now. I'm -terrible- sometimes.

Oh, and do I trust God? MMmmmmm. We're working on that. God and I have a long history. Remember that story about the skittish cat and the family who eventually drew her out? Well, we'll see whether God manages to draw me out or not. I did sit on His lap and purr one night. That was nice. (And it was because of NB's quote that she used, the one about purring on God's shoulder.) And I'm still cautious.


And then there's praying and how to do it well. I don't know much about Christian prayer. In Judaism, the prayers are pretty well laid-out for you. (I'm not Jewish either, but have attended many more Jewish services than Christian, and know more about Jewish practices than any other religion.)

From that perspective, prayer is a lot more about praise and blessings than about my own wants and needs.

When I learned to pray -- the day that my ex told me she had revoked her consent to the adoption -- it was utterly desperate begging. It didn't help, of course, though eventually I got to the point where the emotional "speakers" blew out and I got numb. I took that as a blessing; numbness was much better than the pain I was in.

Since then, well, I've found that the best prayer for me isn't prayer so much as it is meditation and listening. Anyone seen the "only love prevails" campaign? I like that, too. (If you haven't, it's here: http://www.openheart.com/peace/peace.html)

So to wander through the question of trust. For many years I knew almost no one who was strong enough to, hmm, keep up with me. That's not a good thing.

As I was talking to a friend today, I noticed that one of the reasons I can be with HoFS is that he's a grownup. He understands honor, integrity, responsibility, etc.

And the poor man, when I tried getting out of the way and not being so opinionated today, finally said, "Uh, what are you doing?" Errrr, well, remember that book I told you about that NB is going to work through? I'm trying that.

He asked that I not give up being -me- just because of what some book says.

A good point. And not my intent. AND I've gotten off-topic because thinking about HoFS pretty much guarantees that my head will start doing lovely loop-the-loop daydreams.

Wheee!

Gosh, you guys are talkin' up a WONDERFUL storm...

It's Friday, the end of a very long day leading into my holiday weekend here... and I have to stay late at work because my H's working late (we share a ride in - we work at the same place! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)... anyway, here I am for a bit.

Just J... here's the thing... neither THIS BOOK or I am asking you to *change* anything other than your prayer life.

While it is assumed, since it is a Christian book, that the reader is a Christian and a wife... I believe that ANYONE can benefit from its teachings on prayer.

That quote you mention above (about purring on God's shoulder) is from the book Praying With Katie . Honestly, at the spiritual place you are **right now** you'd probably really, really, REALLY [color:"red"] LOVE [/color] reading it. (Psst... get it!)

I'm not so sure you'll even the teeny-tinyest *like* POPW... and the more you write, the more I worry ('cause you know I'm a worrier <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> )... because the last thing I'd want is for you to feel that you were 1. mislead or 2. preached-at here. More than that, I'd never, ever want you to feel excluded by me (personally) or by a group of Christian women reading a book.

Now, all that said... the Bible will be mentioned throughout, and J, you know I have had my issues with the Bible and with God. The whole reason I wanted to begin this discussion is actually for two reasons: 1. because I want to learn how to lift up my H in as a Godly wife and 2. because I want to feel closer to God, who I see as the God of my youth, the Christian God (which includes the Holy Trinity - which we can and will discuss later in the study, I know).

I just want you to know, J, that the wife is given very high esteem in the Bible. Let me share a Bible verse that fits this study very well:

Who can find a virtuous wife? For her worth is far above rubies. The heart of her husband safely trusts her; So he will have no lack of gain. She does him good and not evil All the days of her life. She seeks wool and flax, And willingly works with her hands. She is like the merchant ships, She brings her food from afar. She also rises while it is yet night, And provides food for her household, And a portion for her maidservants. She considers a field and buys it; From her profits she plants a vineyard. She girds herself with strength, And strengthens her arms. She perceives that her merchandise is good, And her lamp does not go out by night. She stretches out her hands to the distaff, And her hand holds the spindle. She extends her hand to the poor, Yes, she reaches out her hands to the needy. She is not afraid of snow for her household, For all her household is clothed with scarlet.

Proverbs 31:10-21

The wife has *great* worth, and for a Christian wife, these words have deep meaning.

Okay, well, I ended up saying a mouthful, I think.

I do not see it as anyone being the boss of me, I see it as H being given specific responsibilities by God. Doesn't make H my boss, makes us co workers with different responsibilities.

Also when we have a doctor we trust implicitly, and something is really wrong with us we run to him and do as he says without question, and in our lives God is like this, We trust him to care for us. In our marriage God wants our husband to be like this, not a dominator, but one who is loving and caring and held responsible for our welfare by God. So we feel loved and "run" to him and give him the trust to care for us in his part of the M responsiblity.

So praying for H in our prayers is really like praying for him to make good driving decisions when he will be the driver on a journey. WE drive when the journey is our part of the responsibility.

Linda

Good morning, Ladies,

Up early, husband still asleep, and I began reading through Chapter One...

And lo and behold, I had to run in here, quote MYSELF (from yesterday's response to Just J, and do some thinking!


The subheading that got my attention this morning was Who, Me? ... Change?

I want to quote one part of the paragraph, which explains what Stormie means:
So, I stand corrected!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Change is, indeed, a part of the process.

Just J, I was thinking about you last night -- about this discussion -- about this forum (Women's Bible Study). I don't know the answers to all your questions and/or concerns. While I have many years of Christianity under my belt (like 25 years, actually), I have struggled with my prayer life and my relationship with God. I've had issues with church, as you know. But ultimately, under all the muck of my human-ness, I have come "home" again and again to Jesus.

I am here to learn, like everyone else, and to be led by God in being the best wife I can be. So, I think I'll reserve my opinions about what Stormie is writing until we've come to the chapter in question. See, I already made a BIG boo-boo -- well, kinda/sorta. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Everyone:

I will finish reading the chapter this weekend and be back for sure on Monday with a synopsis for us to discuss. For anyone who doesn't yet have the book, please feel free to share thoughts on what those of us who have the book are writing.

As I said to JustJ above, this is an important study for me. Like so many of you, I just want to get right with God, and have blessings in my marriage and in my life.

God can bless us even when we're questioning, fretting, and wondering about our marriage. We've all been where you are...(whoever you are - me, included. And if you understand that one, you get a prize! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ).

PS: ((((CarenMc)))) I meant to give you a hug the other day... I'm so sorry for your pain. I've read some of your other posts. I understand VERY MUCH... especially about your ex, the regrets, and the amends... I have gone down your path... and I lived through it. I think I might have some insight for you.

NB,

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to this!!! My work schedule & family has swamped me! LOL But I am still interested in working on this book. I've read it, have it in my nightstand & it has worked wonders in my M. Some things I saw an answer to right away & others I've had to wait quite a while & are now finally feeling the affects from the prayers. But all in all, the jist of it is -- prayers for our H's WORK! I'll have to go back & read the responses you've gotten. So happy to see so many! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have to break out my book this evening & post my thoughts. We're on the introduction?

I envy you, NB! I'd love to work at the same place as my SO. I always wanted to do that with my ex (she wasn't interested) and would love to do it with HoFS now. Maybe some day when it's not a 365 mile commute.

Anyway, I chuckled when you said that stuff about how you weren't asking me to change. I'll tell you the same thing that I told HoFS: I'll always learn and grow.

It's not so scary for me to think of changing myself. I've changed so much in my life that a little more change, or even a lot more change, isn't worrisome. I know that I will always work toward excellence in myself; it's not like I'm going to consciously change for the worse, you know?

External change is harder for me sometimes. I didn't really do all that well with the whole "you're not married to me anymore" change. But I still work to accept my life exactly as it is at the moment. I guess that's all change too.

I want to reassure you, too, because I know you worry. Once I receive the book (ordered it last week) and start reading it, if I figure out that the underlying Christian structure really does give me cooties, then I'll back away slowly and quietly. There's a decent chance that will happen. It's happened to me every time I've tried to read the Bible (about once every five years) and it happens to me with other strongly Christian books as well. The underlying ugliness -- hatred in some cases -- is so strong sometimes that I can't stomach it and have to walk away. I hope it won't happen to me with this book.

Silverpool, you said this:


It's interesting that you would use the analogy of a doctor. For more than a decade -- from the age of 16 to the age of 28 -- I lived without a diagnosis of a rare medical condition. It's called Premature Ovarian Failure and it basically means that my ovaries don't work. My own personal theory (there is no real understanding of this condition, just lots of theories, and mine is based in the medical facts and knowledge that is pretty certain) is that when I hit puberty, an autoimmune response was triggered and my body basically destroyed my ovaries as they began to function. I don't ovulate and my body doesn't produce estrogen, progesterone, or the small amounts of testosterone that all normal women's ovaries produce. There are various effects associated with this -- primarily that I am infertile and that my body has been post-menopausal since I was about 16 years old. This is, understandably, NOT something that most doctors think of when they examine a teenager. It took a long time to get -- and accept -- an accurate diagnosis. For many years I simply told all medical personnel to leave me alone because they'd already admitted they couldn't help me.

And when I did find the one doctor in the country who does understand this condition (a researcher at the National Institutes of Health), it surely was NOT the case that he told me what to do and I did it, although I do trust him more than any other doctor I've met. He sat down with me and the other woman who was there for their experimental evaluations that week and told us everything he knows about POF -- and then asked us what we thought. We discussed the pros and cons of various treatment options. He asked about our experiences (uniformly bad) with other doctors. We talked about methods of getting the word out to OB-Gyns about the condition.

That's my paradigm for doctors and that's how I work with them. I've found that they -- and men -- are simply human and sometimes they're good and sometimes they're not. They may have knowledge that I don't have, or I may know much more than they do. I have yet to meet a doc who knew much about POF. I have always known more about it than they do. I tell them what the most current research is. I explain the current hormone dosages. I tell them that we need to check my bones and my thyroid and that we need to watch for early heart disease.

(It affects 1 in 100 women over the age of 40. Less than 1 in 10,000 begin this when they're teenagers.)

Lest you think this is all doom and gloom, here's a bit of humor about it. At my last OB appointment, the nurse-midwife said, "Well, I can't find your ovaries, but that's no surprise." I said, "Yeah, since they're shrivelled up like raisins!" She said, "Well, smaller than that, actually..." And I said, "Yeah, yeah, I have currants for ovaries, I know!" She laughed so hard that she had tears running down her face.

So I really like your analogy, silverpool, though I take it differently than you meant it. I have had excellent working relationships with the best doctors I've ever seen. They understand that I am intelligent and well trained in the sciences. They know that I know the lingo and will ask questions when they hit an area that I'm less familiar with. And most importantly, no doctor has ever made a decision for me.

Perhaps, bringing it back to God, it's about free will and about doing your best to make sure that you really understand what Deity is suggesting that you do. That's a decision and responsibility that I can't, in good conscience, ever give to someone else. It would put someone else between me and my God, between me and my responsibility as a human with free will.

Huh. I suppose we're going to talk about submission somewhere in here. That'll be interesting.

StandingTogether,

Yes, we're still on the Intro, but on Monday we begin Chapter One thoughts... jump in anytime, anywhere, with anythoughts! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JustJ,

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