In my case, once my wife finally learned her boundaries, and how to enforce them herself, I've no longer had a need to work to enforce them...she's learned how to manage on her own.

Personally, I'd suggest that the both of you find a good MC who can help you define what those boundaries should be and how you can help her to maintain them.

Example for my own situation:
Just the other day, my wife was online and had a guy join her in a game of cards. It was obvious from the beginning he was 'trolling' for someone to have fun with...he tried to chat her up, and then asked her "Where's hubby?" (She has her profile for this site listed as "VERY HAPPILY MARRIED", and her favorite pastimes as "playing games with my kids and hubby".) He'd obviously checked her profile...trying to check her out.

Her response was CLASSIC for a great boundary!!

She replied, "Here in the living room teaching our son karate so that he can pass his next belt test this weekend."

The guy promptly left the game without another word.

It told that guy that we were married, I was close, family-oriented, and a martial artist. What a GREAT message to give someone who's looking to 'hook up'!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Two years ago my wife wouldn't have understood what to do. She wouldn't have even understood WHY she should respond in such a fashion. She learned it, over time, with my (and our MC's) help.

Your wife clearly doesn't have this yet.

Your choice is simple. You either help teach her and work with her to enforce the appropriate boundaries, or plan on accepting her wayward behavior for the rest of your marriage.

Bluntly, the reason your marriage GOT to the point where she was capable of commiting adultery is BECAUSE these boundaries weren't understood and enforced. Same as in my case.

It sounds to me like you've got some learning to go through as well in this area as well. If YOU don't understand the need for them, then you can't expect her to meet them either.

Does this mean your marriage will require this FOREVER? Hopefully not. Hopefully it means that your wife (as mine did) will learn these boundaries and how to enforce them herself...she'll have EARNED that trust back.

This isn't that tough. She's not asking for anything more than your help to learn and do what she needs to do.

vercing, what your wife is asking is that you set boundaries FOR YOURSELF and stop allowing her to run over you. SHE WANTS YOU TO DEFEND YOURSELF FROM HER SO SHE CAN RESPECT YOU. She needs your help. Women do not respect men they can run over, and often our feelings of love are directly contingent on the RESPECT we feel for our H.

She wants to respect you but she cannot if you don't respect yourself enough to protect yourself from her.

She is asking you to MAN UP and stop letting her abuse you. It is not facist to NOT ALLOW someone to run over you, it is MANLY. She wants a MAN, not a wimp who allows her to run over him.

my wife had no problem underestanding the boundaries of our marriage for 12 years. I think its clear she knew what to do before. if she doesn't want to do that now what good is me trying to enforce it?

I am interested in fixing my marriage not setting up a martial enforcement camp.

How cazn she earn trust back if i don';t trust her? If i don't lket her do anything then how is anyh trust being built?

The trust was there before because she acted in a trustworthy manner whenever tested, if she is the opposite now what good is my intervention going to do but prolong the inevitable.

12 years is a long time

Obviously your wife DID have a problem with the boundaries before now...or you wouldn't be here to begin with.

The two times she strayed were just the ones that finally got that far...odds are there were other times when it DIDN'T get that far for whatever reason.

Again...exactly the same in my case.

Mel is right on the respect thing.

We can't get any more blunt and to the point here.

She's asked you for help.

It's in your court to either help her, divorce her, or accept the consequences of not wanting to help her do what needs to be done.

As I've said before...this isn't rocket science...I used to work on rockets!

well melodylane the way for me to man up is to leave isn't it?

How am i going to earn respect by becoming some sort of 3rd world husband banning her from all male contact and watching over what sort of women she is friends with. She fell in love with me for my strong values and me with her for the same reason. She also fell in love with me becauses i beleive in strong women and i am essentially a feminist.

It seems to me that i am now being asked to take away all the things about me she fell in love with to cover up for her having stopped loving me as stringly as she did.

How will this help? Our boundaries were never ever a problem until 1 year ago, i understand this means our marriage was and is broken. But is mistrust the way to fix the sudden glaring lack of trust now?

Thanks for the replies, i am not trying to be argumental here but this confuses me as it seems contradictory to the way we have been for 12 years.

OK V6, you can't seem to see the reasoning for working for your marriage. Soooooo I guess it's time to get a lawyer.

This is not about a spousal prison camp or concentration camp. It is about establishing boundaries, things that your wife might do that you will not tolerate. Same for her vs you. Are you really so PC that you can't concieve of the notion that you should have boundaries??? This is not about oppressing women, it is about RESPECT! If you don't know what your boundaries are or are unwilling to establish them, you are lost. You have to earn back your wife's respect, then she has to earn back your trust (unless you are completely clueless and blindly give her your trust again).

Christ I don't even know you and have lost all respect for you as a man.

How long were you in prison???

Dude...

Your situation is NOT the same as it has been for the last 12 years. THAT MARRIAGE IS DEAD.

Read that above line again.

The vows were shattered. She strayed, and violated the oaths that she swore to you.

Why? Well, obviously because she decided it was what she wanted to do. But YOU need to start recognizing that if you DON'T make a change, then nothing WILL change. She WILL end up back where she was before...only this time, you CAN add yourself in the who to blame list. She ASKED you to help...it gets no more clear than this.

If you choose not to, then expect to deal with the repercussions of that choice.

Man up doesn't mean divorce. Man up means step to the plate, roll up your sleeves, and GET TO WORK.

Right now, you're dodging the work by not being willing to assist your wife, out of a misplaced sense of...something.

You DO have one other choice here.

GO find a wife who doesn't need help in building boundaries and maintaining them.


I have tons of respect for women, while not claiming to be a feminist.

GET THIS IN YOUR HEAD NOW...THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HER GENDER. IT HAS TO DO WITH HER MENTAL STATE. THIS COULD EASILY WORK THE OTHER WAY, WHERE SHE WOULD HAVE TO HELP YOU LEARN AND ENFORCE THE SAME KIND OF BOUNDARIES. IT HAPPENS HERE ALL THE TIME. IT'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH GENDER...IT'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH HER BEING A WOMEN. IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH HER BEING VULNERABLE, AND NEEDING YOUR HELP IN MAKING THE RIGHT CHANGES TO KEEP IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.

My point is made.

Up to you now.

You keep saying this. And I will flat-out tell you that you are wrong.

If she was keeping appropriate boundaries in the marriage for all those years, she would not have ended up cheating on you the way she did.

Most people don't just suddenly start cheating. It happens more gradually. They let the boundaries gradually slide and slide and slide, until they're gone.

If she truly "had no problem understanding the boundaries of our marriage for 12 years," she would not have been able to let them slide and slide until she was ignoring you for some other man.

Why are you afraid to stand up for yourself and say to your wife, "Look, I deserve a wife who will respect me and respect our marriage and not ignore me for other men." -- ?

I think what you're really afraid of is that your wife will leave you if you insist on you and your marriage being treated with respect.

Look at it this way: You think you're being all modern and progressive and feminist by saying, "Sure, honey, I trust you. I'm not like those other controlling male pigs. You can have all the male friends you want and go out with whoever you want. I'm content to ignore you and find something else to do while you spend time with your male friends."

What she hears: "I don't care what you do. I don't care what you do.

"I don't care.

"I don't care.

"I don't care.

Do you understand this?

Your wife had very poor boundaries for most if not all of the time you were married or she could not have done what she did. You either did not know what she was up to or you were very, very lucky.

If you do not insist on reasonable boundaries within your marriage, you will lose her because she will assume you just don't care enough about her to protect her.

I hope you understand that. You picked a great name, but if you're not careful you're going to end up like he did.

It is NOT being controlling or Taliban-like to insist on yourself and your marriage being treated with respect.

Sitting back and saying "Well, okay, do whatever, I won't say a word cuz I'm scared somebody will say I'm controlling" just makes you look like a weakling who simply does not care what his wife does - and therefore does not care about his WIFE.

Do you think any woman wants to stay with a man like that?
Mulan

What is this obsession with the Third World? It's neither here nor there to the issue at hand.

Anyway, 12 years or not, whatever you were doing before in the marriage is obviously no longer working for your wife. I still maintain she is not hinting but PLEADING for you to be strong.

I also see by your knee-jerk reaction that it doesn't sit well. Eagle is right, you need to quit whining. A wise old lady told me once, "There is nothing worse than a whiny man." 'Fraid I have to agree. For whatever reason, a "New Age Sensitive Male" isn't going to cut it with this woman anymore.

If it's not in your nature right now to be firm and meet your wife's emotional needs in this respect, then you need to either get counseling (to learn assertiveness) or part ways, because she has as much TOLD you now that if you don't step up to the plate and take the reins, you will soon experience the pain of a third affair.

Many people here are telling you the same thing and trying to help, but you seem to be in denial about this issue. Falling back on the 12 years argument doesn't change anything. That was then, this is now.

~Silverwraith

vercing...

I'll give this one a shot....

First of all...

YOU CAN'T CONTROL HER....

you can't CONTROL anyone..

so it's rather mute....eh?

tell her that...

dear wife I can't control you...

what I can do is work with you in YOU finding the VALUE of cherishing your husband...

cherishing is in fact the most underated VOW in my always humble opinion.....

your wife has not acted in a cherishing way...

she does NOT know how
OR
she CHOOSES not to...

ALL boundaries set reside with YOU...for YOU by YOU...

wife you have free choice to do as you like...

but the vision of my marriage that I want DOES not include...

having discussions with other people male female shemale...etc...
that would not go on with me right there beside me...

your wife needs to learn this....

I have been privy to bash the husband fests many a times in my life....

I know women whose husbands would be horrified to show their faces if they KNEW how their wives spoke of them...

do exercises with your wife...

ask her to write a list of her close friends
male and female...

ask her to write beside each name how much of a percentage of HER interactions include aspects that are UNcherishing to you....

show her the actions of herself...
show her the pain they cause
show her the path they beget...

ask her to write down beside the names episodes and experience in which she would have DEFINITELY acted differently if you had been standing beside her....

what also don't get about YOU is that several times in this post...

you say I never had to do this before...why now...

well OBVIOUSLY what you two had been doing before wasn't really working....

I adore my husband...
I want him by my side more than any other person....

when I am not with my husband...I have a marvelous time...

often...
with different people and groups...

but there is nothing I do or say..that I would not do or sayh without him with me...

your wife does not act this way with you....

ask her WHY
do not accept I don't know...

does she feel pressure to join in the gang for a good game of spousal bashing...

has she iniated so much spousal bashing in her life that it is what is expected from her....

FRIENDS true FRIENDS
hold others marriages as SACRED..
otherwise they are not friends....

and blabbbing blabbbling blabbing about all the ills of a marriage and spouses short coming...

have never ever ever in the history of marriage gotten one iota better going to others.....

tell your wife she must go the source for TRUE resolution...

and then you sit back...
and you watch her actions...

then you decide if this is a marriage acceptable to YOU...
and if you decide it is....
then you clam your trap up...
for you condone and participate..

lord another living example of the womens movement gone awry.....

also if she is interested in getting help...then SHE must be the transparant one..
offering up cell phone passwords
emails etc....

she must the work as well
and strike now while she is asking for help

ARK

maybe if she was not willing to settle for me as i am and was i should be not now ready to settle for being not enough for her. if she didn't settle for what we had then why must i settle for having to do this and live our lives without trust.

If she couldn't settle for me the way she loved me then why should i settle for having to turn into a musli9m goat herder to keep her, i call [censored] on that.

If seh can't control herself how in ****** am i supposed to?

and i am not being a whiney male, a weak male would settlel for having to police his wife to keep her faithful, if i have to do that then isn't the battle already lost.
Its not string to settle for suddenly being second best in the life you builtl together, she should be able to go and hang out at a porno shoot and keep faithful to me. i am that way and i see lotsd of women who have no problem keeping to thier marriages.

I suspect that this might have been going on for far long than she has admitted as some of you have said, if this is the case then she is still lying to me and this is all wasted effort.

I will not settle for second best, she didn't and wouldn't.

i am not a goat herder from saudi arabia, my wife should be able to talk to another man and have a casual male friend.
She should be able to go out alone sometimes if she wants.
I should not have to monitor her cellphone to make sure she isn't talking to someone behind my back etc etc.

i don't think you people understand how critical and central to our relationship that trust was and is, it was and is the core of our love and our family.


How can she rebuild the trust if i don't give her the opportunity to be trusted?

Then you have no basis for recovering your marriage.

If you think that recovering a marriage means to go back how things were before...

If you think that a marriage where a man helps his wife learn how to protect herself and her marriage contains a "weak male"...

If you really do completely believe that EVERYONE and ANYONE should automatically be capable of standing up against every temptation...even when they've clearly demonstrated that they CAN'T and ask you for help....


Then I can't see any hope for you or your situation.

Your marriage is likely doomed. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.

Doing what you have done up to this point has led to her lack of ability to understand appropriate boundaries and knowing how to enforce them.

You have no desire to assist her in correcting this issue.

What do you expect from a site dedicated to recovering marriages from infidelity if you're completely unwilling to make a change needed to allow your marriage to recover?

This isn't prison...this is teaching and helping. It's not permanent...unless you make it so.

I'm done. No more advice from me...you clearly already have made your choice on what you want to do, and are totally unwilling to accept another opinion. So don't be surprised when you end up right back where you are now.

OK then vercing..

WHAT is YOUR plan...

doesnt' really matter what anyone else would do...

what's your game plan..

what you have been doing hasn't been working..
you don't like what anyone else is telling you though you aren't real receptive to HEARING it...

really...fifteen different replies...
you don't agree or see value in any of them..

what do you want us to tell you
what do you want to hear...

and my questions are sincere..

what are YOUR marital goals...
and what is YOUR plan to get there



ARK

i don't know, but i don't like the idea of rebuilding my marriage into something other than what it was, i don't like what it is and has become.

I am not trying to be argumentatal here so i really don't appreciate the ****** hostility directed at me for questioning.

Why has noone addressed my central question if i am so wrong

HOW CAN SHE REBUILD TRUST IF I NEVER TRUST HER AND LET HER DO ANYTHING REMOTLY NOT TO MY LIKING.

HOW CAN I TRUST AGAIN IF I DON'T TRUST HER WITH ANYTHING?

Trust is buiLt through actions not boundaries, i understand things need to be more careful but as i have studied this issue this boundary thing is going to mean, evrything will be different than it was for 12 years?

i want to save my marriage but i don't see it as up to me solely. Its mostly up to her, she is the one that strayed not me. How am i supposed to help her not stray but acting like i can't trust her with anyone?

can noone understand what i am trying to say here?

BTW...

I'm ex-military. I've BEEN in a number of 'third world countries'. I've been friends with people from all over the world. From all kinds of religions, backgrounds, etc...

I've seen some VERY loving, supportive, wonderful marriages in those countries.

You seem to think that ANY kind of 'boundary' is bad.

Have you raised kids? Ever set boundaries for them? Why?

Granted, a marriage should be between EQUALS.

But right now, your wife is weak. Nothing to do with her gender. It's got to do with her emotional state. I said this again and again...MEN end up in this state too. It's NOT a 'woman thing'.

So helping someone recover when they're weak is being controlling?

If you found out today your wife was addicted to pot...

...would you refuse to set a 'boundary' of no more pot, and help her 'get clean', and help her recover?

...or would you simply expect her to deal with it on her own?


Quit thinking like this is some kind of gender thing...start realizing this is a HELP thing.

Ark & Owl,

Well Said!

Dude you have got to be open to change, life does not sit still, it is dynamic, it lives and thrives on new and exciting things. You are sitting on the curb and watching it pass you by.

You are exactly like a muslim goat herder, sitting under your tent, more than willing to let your goats wander as they please, so long as you have to do nothing in the hot sun.

You marriage is only worth the effort you put into it. From what I read from you here, you are way in the red! You have put nothing into it, so you should expect nothing in return.

Your wife is asking you for help and you are refusing to help her. If she was drunk almost out of her mind would you help her to bed? If yes, then why won't you help her repair her mariage?

You profess to be a feminist, yet you are more than willing to stand by and watch your wife destroy your life and marriage. You are unwilling to lift a finger to help her. You are so determined to stand your ground that you can't see that you are in a mine field.

I can see why she would look for another man, your mind is closed, locked, boarded up for the winter of your life. You sound like one of the mullahs in Iran, "It's my way or the highway!" Well dude, I'm taking the highway.

Seeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaaaaaa

my plan was to get all truth out,m work on emotional needs being fullfilled better and us spending much more time together to keep the relationship healthy.

But she is starting a business now, how do i control the male and female friends there? can you ever truly control someone like that?

I see trust as the only path back to our once healthy marriage, if she can't be trusted thens its not healthy and all the cell phone checking and boundary setting won't mean anything. The same goes for me if i cannot be trusted? I do not need to be told that i cannot try to set up a secret dinner meeting with another woman.

Trust was the very core of our relationship, how do i turn my back on that and pretend i am wqorking towards what we had?

trust is a choice....

are you choosing now based on todays' actions that you will never trust again....

you can...

or you can seek avenues that you BOTH do to build trust...

and again you can't stop her from doing anything...

right??



and you can't go back to what it was...
none of us can...

so you need a different goal...

ARK

no one here is telling you to control her at all...

I don't know why you think you are being told that...

do you need to check your wife's cell phone..
OR
do you need the ability to check it whenever if ever you want....
and you may never want to...
but in a marriage....should that option always exist between spouses...

ark

i understand what you are saying there ARK and i appreciate it.
i just find the details of the boundaries the sticking point for me, because when i look back on the last year and how i would have stopped what happened i would have been compleelty unreasonable.

i would have had to said, no you cannot go out, no you cannot have that girl friend as a freind and no you cannot speak on the phone to an old boyfriend from 10 years ago, nor can you have a drink with the old boyfriend who is both of our friends and introduced us before we got married.

I might also have had to say NO to starting this business as she is going into business with one of her girlf friends who pretty much back stabbed my marriage and encouraged her to cheat and assisted her in making secret contacts. I would also have had to say no to about 10 dinners out with her group of girlfriends cos they go out and act like party ******
They are all friends because they met at mommy and me groups so i would have to cut out that too?

See not such an easy thing to enforce these boundaries is it?

I admit i have little exporience with this other than my first wife who was an unmitigated ****** and i tried desperatly to do the very thing you all say i must do and guess what she tossed me out 2 years later becasues i was untrusting, oveerbearing in my demands and unrelenting .

can you see why i am confused now?