having boundries does not mean lack of trust

trust is derived from boundries

You may also be confusing "boundaries" with "ultimatums".

An Ultimatum is something like, "You can't go for drinks with other men or I will throw you out!"

A Boundary is, again, something like, "I do not want to be married to a woman who is happy to ignore me so she can drink with an old boyfriend. That is very hurtful to me. I want to be married to a woman who wants to go out for drinks with ME."

Again, there is a difference.
Mulan

Vert-

Would you trust a pickpocket to hold your wallet?

A car thief to hold your keys?

Again...recognize that I'm not bashing you.

But realize that your wife IS NO LONGER TRUSTWORTHY. AND SHE'S TELLING YOU THAT HERSELF.

This doesn't have to be a permanent state. In fact, if it were, there would be no basis for a marriage.

But it IS the CURRENT state. And you need to take that into account.

If you can't accept that this is a temporary situation that you HAVE TO address, then there's no point in continuing this thread.

So when WOULD you trust a pickpocket with your wallet? When they've become a close friend, that you know no longer steals for a living? After they've demonstrated to you that you can hand them that wallet with a minimum of risk.

When should you trust your wife? After she's rebuilt that trust. After she's SHOWN you that she understands how to protect your marriage and your heart.

If you can't give her the chance to do this...if you don't want to help teach her how to develop the boundaries she needs to meet to support your marriage, then you're assuming a lot of the 'burden of responsibility' going forward, IMHO.

This isn't a permanent change...what you're trying to do is to assist your wife in learning how to meet this requirement for you to remain married to her.

You are making this into some form of political statement if you ask me, like she has had it with her liberal husband and just wants a Rush Limbaugh to set things straight.

[color:"blue"]Not a political issue, just facts as you stated them. Doesn't take a "Rocket Scientist to figure this out. This is probably true, she does want a Rush Limbaugh kind of guy, not an Al Frankin. [/color]

She tried to cheat on me because a man who she felt very strongly about came into her life, she looked into our relationship for some reasons to let her heart go.
For 12 years she had no problem with me.

[color:"blue"]No kidding, a man you are not and will not be! Yup no problem for 12 years, but BIG PROBLEMS NOW! [/color]

Now once she has done this and failed i think she may have come to some form of realization about her feelings for me that now have been overshadowed by someone else.

[color:"blue"]Or she could be scared about how her life is going and where she will live, how she will eat, how her lifestyle will change, etc... She may just be there until someone better comes along! Or someone who will actually want to marry and provide for her. [/color]

What you are saying eagle is that noone can be trusted and this is simply not true at all, so what if 65% of marriages have affairs or attempts? that means 35% don't.
I have seen just as many marriages ruined by over bearing spouses as affairs. Spouses either male or female who are so insecure they drive the other person to actually escape by cheating. Cheating is a form of disrespect but so is never trusting your partner.

[color:"blue"]Not at all just that trust is an earned thing not to be given blindly, unless you are a fool!
So your marriage is now in the 65%, and yes marriages are ruined by overbearing, insecure spouses who refuse to change as people change and attitudes change, LIKE YOU! Yes cheating is direspect, but no one here is saying to "NEVER TRUST YOUR SPOUSE", what is being said is trust but verify until trust is re-earned. Big difference! For someone so enlightened you are certainly closed minded and very narrowly focused. [/color]

Its not weak to trust, its strong to trust, its weak to never trust and assume all people are untrustworthy.

[color:"blue"]It is completely insane to blindly trust someone who has proven to be untrustworthy. Once they have re-earned that trust then you can easily trust them again. [/color]

For every lying spouse on this forum there is someone like me who never lied or cheated on thier spouse.

[color:"blue"]I have never cheated on my spouse either. So what's your point? [/color]

i haven't read the books no, i have read all the stuff on this site however.

[color:"blue"]Get busy Mr. Man [/color]

I cannot live with a wife i cannot trust, it is unthinkable to me to accept this as a normal relationship. I want to work on my marriage but there has to be some standards of what that is. i don't want to work towards creating more mistrust and resentment simply to make me feel secure and in control.

[color:"blue"]Neither can I. This is not a normal relationship, maybe used to be, but as soon as your wife went off with another man it was no longer normal.
Teh "Some standards you mention above is what everyone else is calling "BOUNDARIES." Christ, even you own wife is asking for boundaries, so be a loving husband and give her a few. What is so hard about that? This is nopt about you, it is about your wife not getting what she needed from you and going to another man to get those needs filled. This is very basic. What part of this do you not understand?[/color]

Love , trust and honesty are basic standards. You have to give and get them to have a good relationship.

True, but you have allowed through your laisse faire approach to your amrriage, NOT given. Your wife has asked for boundaries, you refuse to give them to her, so she will continue to look for someone who will show their love for her by setting and enforcing boundaries. It will make her life easier because she will KNOW THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT, she will no longer HAVE TO GUESS![/quote]

well yes there is a difference but if she goes out for the drink after I have told her how i feel and I leave her over it how different would that really be then?

If she hears me say that and she knows damn well i will leave her if she disrespects me isn;t that sort of an ultimatum, maybe delivered better but its still an ultimatum.

For example if she wants to travel to NJ in sept for a business conference what do i say knowing full well she had tried to plan her last little affiair for this very business trip? do i lay down the law, go with her? forbid her to leave?

What about her friends who i know full well have probably brought this whole thing onto my marriage with thier contsant attacking of everyones marriage around them and their support and assistance with her extram marital attempts?

Do i say i want a wife who doesn;t want to sit there with an evil woman who wants to destroy all the marrtiages around her to make up for her own lost one due to her own infidelities? or do i say i suggest you doin't see her?

But if i get yupset when she does then its an ultimatum isn;t it.

And whats so wrong with ultimatums? I think those are also appropriate at times. Like Don't cheat on me or i will leave you because that is disrepsecting me and showing me you don't love me.

Well...this is all up to you.

Are you OK with her going out for a drink with someone?

Are you OK with her going to NJ again?

If you aren't...THEN SAY SO!!! AND MAKE SURE SHE HEARS THAT, AND REALIZES THAT CONTINUING TO DO THESE THINGS WILL RESULT IN YOU DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

If you are ok with it...then there's no point to this discussion.

How can you possibly expect her to do the things you expect of her if you don't tell her what they are??? Read your mind? Assume?

Realize that she's already demonstrated that she can't do this right now...so why would you expect her to do so in the future if you've not taken steps to ensure that she won't do it and she understands the consequences???

Think about it.

You want a wife that's automatically always do the right thing.

Don't we all!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But you are here...we're ALL here...because our spouses clearly didn't do that.

So now you're being 'educated' on to help your spouse learn from this.

Do you want us to tell you not to set boundaries and teach them to her and help her to meet them while she's weak?

Not going to happen. We've all learned this lesson already...and now we're attempting to teach it to you...SINCE YOU ASKED US TO.

If you don't want that...then don't ask us to.

yes i appreciate the help in understanding this

I am trying to understand exactly how these boundaries would be set without making ultimatums that are essentially love busters

v'x

What would you do if you weren't afraid ?

It is not a "lovebuster" to expect your spouse to respect you.

You seem to have the idea that it is.

I can tell you, women do not love men that they cannot respect.

Your wife cannot respect you if you are afraid to say to her, "I do not want you to socialize with other men unless I can be there, too."

Failure to stand up for yourself is only being a doormat who will allow himself to be treated with great disrespect out of fear of being called "controlling".

This is being a doormat who acts like he doesn't give a damn whether his wife goes out with him or not.

Where did you get the idea that expecting your wife to treat you with respect, and expecting your wife to be with you and not with other men, is a "lovebuster" or "controlling"???

V6, you are well on the path to losing this woman.

You are showing her that you don't care how she treats you and you don't care what she does.

I DON'T CARE HOW YOU INTEND IT

THAT'S HOW SHE IS TAKING IT

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED DURING THOSE 12 YEARS YOU THINK WERE SO GOOD

THAT'S WHY SHE CHEATED ON YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE

I don't know what else to say to you. It seems like you want a relationship that you don't have to lift a finger to protect. As another poster said, you want you wife to just automatically do all the right things with NO input from you.

Dude, that's not the way healthy relationships work. Partners do have a responsibility to TELL each other their wants and needs. You are refusing to do this and just expecting your wife to magically do all the right things all by herself without you having to say a word.

It ain't gonna work. You have a responsibility to your marriage, too, and you are shirking it by refusing to stand up for reasonable boundaries in the relationship.

You are scared to death of something here. You have to find out what it is.

Otherwise, this ain't never gonna work. She will find a man who DOES expect her to respect him and that's the last you will see of her.

Women do not love men they cannot respect.
Mulan

Trust, do basically what i had been doing for 12 years but with more attention to the EN's

mulan i don't think you understand me at all.

i am not saying no boundaries, we have discussed all sottgs of boundaries and she well knows what i wont put up with. But you poeple are advocating something much more than boundaries.

How did it take 12 years for her to lose respect for me over this?

I have ranted and threatened and acted up all throgh this, none of it helped. There has never been a shortage of me letting her know how i feel.

i cannot stop her from cherating if she wants to, you all know this. But if i have to live with a wife you all now say is going to cheat if i dont watch her every move, what part of that exactly is love and marriage.

I havent had any ul;timatums given to me about my behaviour?


its not weak for me to let my wife go out for dinner and drinks with her friends, its weak for me to act insecure about it and forbid it.

Its not weak to have let my wife talk to an old boyfrind at a show, its stong to have done that, I was stroing in my trust.. i am not going to get that back by now controlling the smallest thing in here life.

You all say you cant give ultimatums but what you all describe is ultimatums offered up softly.
You say i have been weak for 12 years anbd thats why she cheated becasues i trusted her, so in other words noone on this planet is worthy of trust. She earned every ounce of trust i gave her just as i have . Why should i not have given it to her for 12 years when seh acted in a trust worthy manner no matter what the situation.

The longer this thread goes on the more i have to hear that i am a weak man for not wishing to tell my wife what friends she can and cant have.
I have never said its ok for my wife to do anything inappropriate with anyone. i simply allowed her to talk to another man that she had know before with thousands of people around and many of my own friends.

A weak man does not trust, a strong man trusts. The answer to loss of trust is not to take it away forever and never give them another chance to prove they have learned anything. Thats all i am saying.

Everytime i have bropught up the details of what these boundaries are noone is very specific, oh not all the time, not forever etc etc

some of you advocate that the 12 years i trusted her was me being a weak man, you people have no idea what you are talking about. She earned all the trust and it was only given becasues of that. In fact i never would have gone anywhere near here without that trust present first.

It is not strong to be controlling, telling my wife what friends she can and cant have is ridiculous. What i need to do instead is make sure clear boundaires are set for what is appropriate in how she talks about us with these nast yfriends or express that i do not like these friend and would prefer she didnt see them. But in the end i cannot force her and any attempt is controlling.

Ver,

Trust is earned. She has broken your trust in the most horific way a spouse can. That needs to be earned back.

I think what people are getting at here is that every relationship needs boundries.

A boundry can be unspoken. IE if you are running late give me a call. Nobody has to say it it is just common courtesy.

In your pre A relationship your boundries may have led to your M not being A proof.

In each M both sides need to change after an A. You should not trust your FWW like you did before. Maybe you gave her enough rope to hang herself and she did.

I have no problem telling my FWW what friends she can and cannot hang out with. Female ones are fine male ones are not. Easy enough.

My FWW is in AA. I have no problem with her going to meetings and after a womens meeting she can stay as long as she wants to talk with other women. In mixed meetings I want a call if she is running late and I want to know who she is talking with.

She can give her phone number to only women in AA. I will never accept her giving her number to a man.

She will never go back to where OM is alone.

She will never again start an inapporpriate friendship with another man.

Now what if she crosses these boundries.

See an ultimatum is an all or nothing.

A boundry can be incremental or progressive.

For example if my FWW stayed after a meeting and talked to a man for a few minutes I might just say didn't we discuss this please don't do it again.

But if she stayed after a meeting then went to coffee I would really be upset. What would I do. I would say from now on you come home right after the meeting. I trusted you and you broke my trust. I would never say she couldn't go to a meeting.

See if they put one toe over the boundry it can be a small reminder. If they decide to completely disregard it then you enforce it the way you see fit.

For you if FWW went out with the girls and you knew she was doing something that crossed your boundry you can just tell her you don't want her to go.

It is not controlling. It is protecting you and your M.

Why don't you two sit down and negotiate your boundaries? Ones that work for you and ones that you will abide by also.

Perhaps a good place to start might be to ask your wife where she feels that her relationship with the ex-boyfriend crossed the line.

Did it happen when she began discussing her marriage with him? Did it happen when she began keeping calls/meetings secret? Did it happen when emails/calls turned flirtatious? Whatever it was, that might be a good place to sstart.

Boundaries would not be the same for everyone. What will work for you might not for me. But if you two can jointly agree on what will work for you in your marriage, what possible harm can there be in that?

Okay, one more thing:

Trust is one thing.

Shutting your eyes and walking around blind and saying "I am strong because I don't need to know what my wife is really doing" is an entirely different thing.

You are confusing the two.

You say you "trusted" her for 12 years.

In reality, you just shut your eyes and hoped for the best.

That's not the same thing.

Real Trust happens because there are no secrets.

Blind Trust happens when somebody shuts their eyes and tells themselves everything must be okay because they haven't walked off a cliff yet - and then they're shocked and amazed when they DO walk off a cliff, as you did.

Do you want Real Trust or do you want Blind Trust?

Blind Trust is what you had for 12 years. It's full of secrets and blank spots.

Real Trust is what we are encouraging you to have instead. There are no secrets and you always have the whole picture.

Big, big difference.
Mulan

Hi Verc.

Making demands vs. setting bondaries . . . ahh the eternal question. The differece isn't that obvious at first, really, they are both pretty similar. In both cases you describe what you will or you will not tolerate. That is the same in both. What makes one a demand is when you attach a consequence for your spouse if they don't do what you wish. When you do that you leave the realm of boundary and enter the land of selfish demands.

e.g. Boundary . . . I don't wish to be in a marriage where my wife has emotionally intimate relationships with other men.

Demand. If you are emotionally intimate with other men I will divorce you.

I know it may be hard to see the differece, and many men, the author of these words include, can have a hard time telling the two apart. It comes down to a demand must have a punishment linked to it . . . boundaries dont. Harley says the same . . .


From Harley:
Selfish Demands

We were all born with instincts to help us survive the trials and travails of life. Some instincts are very helpful and others are downright stupid and abusive. One of our more stupid and abusive instincts, especially in marriage, is making demands.
If we make a request for something we want or need, and the request is turned down, our instincts encourage us to take more forceful steps. And the first thing that comes to mind is usually a demand.

Demands carry a threat of punishment -- an if-you-refuse-me-you'll- regret-it kind of thing. In other words, you may dislike what I want, but if you don't do it, I'll see it it that you suffer even greater pain.

People who make demands don't seem to care how others feel. They think only of their own needs. "If you find it unpleasant to do what I want, tough! And if you refuse, I'll make it even tougher," is what they seem to be saying.

Demands depend on power. They don't work unless the demanding one has the power to make good on his threats. But who has power in marriage? Ideally, there is shared power, the husband and wife working together to accomplish mutual objectives. But when one spouse starts making demands-along with threats that are at least implied-it's a power play. The threatened spouse often strikes back, fighting fire with fire, power with power. Suddenly, it's a test of power-who will win the battle?

If the demanding partner doesn't have enough power to follow through with the threat, he or she often receives punishment, at least in the form of ridicule. But if power is fairly equal between a husband and wife, a battle rages until one or the other surrenders. In the end, the one meeting the demand feels deep resentment and is less likely to meet the need in the future. When the demand is not met, both spouses feel resentment.

I want you and your spouse to get from each other what you need most in your marriage. I want you to meet each other's emotional needs and be there for each other when you need help. But let me assure you that demands will not get the job done.

When I ask my wife, Joyce, to do something for me, she may cheerfully agree to it-or she may express her reluctance. This reluctance may be due to any number of things-her needs, her comfort level, or her sense of what's wise or fair.

If I push my request, making it a demand, what am I doing? I am trying to override her reluctance. I am declaring that my wishes are more important than her feelings. And I'm threatening to cause her some distress if she doesn't do what I want.

She now must choose one of two evils-my "punishment" on the one hand or whatever made her reluctant on the other. She may ultimately agree to my demand, but she won't be happy about it. I may get my way, but I'm gaining at her expense. My gain is her loss. And she will most certainly feel used.

"But you don't know my husband!" some wife might say. "He lies around the house all night and I can't get him to do a thing. The only time he lifts a finger is to press the remote control. If I don't demand that he get up and help me, nothing would get done."

"You can't be talking about my wife," a husband might say. "She only thinks about herself! She spends her whole life shopping and going out with her friends. If I didn't demand that she stay at home once in a while, I'd never see her."

Without a doubt, you and your spouse need to find an effective way to motivate each other to meet your needs. But demands are nothing short of abuse. In fact, it's usually the first stage of verbal abuse that ultimately leads to fights in marriage.

If you make demands of your spouse and expect obedience, you are being controlling and manipulative. Your spouse will try to escape your abuse, and instead of becoming responsive to your needs, he or she will have as little to do with you as possible. Is that what you want? Do you want to drive your spouse away from you?

Neither of you is a sergeant and neither of you is a private. You do not have the right to tell each other what to do, and if you try, you will find that it doesn't work. If you try to force your spouse to meet your needs, it becomes a temporary solution at best, and resentment is sure to rear it's ugly head. Demands and other forms of manipulation do not build compatibility; they build resentment.

There is a wise alternative to selfish demands, and that's thoughtful requests. This approach to getting what you need from each other begins by simply explaining what you would like, and asking your spouse how he or she would feel fulfilling your request. If he or she indicates that the request will be unpleasant to fulfill, discuss alternative ways your spouse could help you that would not be unpleasant.

"I've already tried that, and it doesn't work," may be your immediate reaction. It may be that he or she simply indicates that whatever it is you want isn't something they want to do. But that's where negotiation should begin. If you become a skilled negotiator, you will accept a negative reaction and try to figure out a way for your spouse to help enthusiastically with whatever it is you want.

After I've finished explaining Love Busters to you, the rest of my Basic Concepts will show you how to negotiate successfully with each other. But remember, if you or your spouse is using the stupid and abusive instinct of selfish demands to try to get what you need, you will most certainly destroy the love you have for each other-and in the long run, you will not get what you need.



I hope this clears things up a bit for you.

Look, your wife has had inappropriate relationships with other men. She is asking you to help her stay away from situations where there is a high likelihood of that happening. I think you owe it to her to help her.

Personally I don't care if you call them demands, boundaries, or fluffy pink bunny rabbits.


The reason that your marriage has FAILED up to this point is because YOU refuse to see the danger in the very actions you mention above.

If YOU can't see the dangers in this...how can you expect HER to do so?

From my perspective, there is no hope for your situation. Until you BOTH learn from what's happened, your marriage will remain ripe for affairs to continue.

You don't like the fact that you SHOULD put a boundary in place about how your wife interacts with other men. If you're not prepared to face the REALITY that you NEED to do this, then there's not much anyone can do for you.

You're stuck on thinking this is some kind of bad thing. It's not. It's a matter of maintaining your marriage...of knowing what the risks and dangers are, and avoiding them and helping your spouse avoid them too.

You can be liberated. You can continue to feel that this violates trust, that this is completely undignified for a 'modern man'. Odds are, you'll also be alone, or repeatedly hurt by those you love because they're going to continuually cross lines that they didn't know were there.

I'm all about equal rights. I have NO expectations of my wife that she shouldn't also have of me. I'm ex-military, and had a number of women subordinates, peers, and superiors, and never had an issue with that. I'm as equal rights as anyone...the sooner you recognize that this isn't a related issue, and that it IS a NORMAL PART OF A HEALTHY MARRIAGE, the better chance you've got of recovering your own marriage and affair proofing it.

It's all up to you. I really am done giving advice now.

i am still considering what has been said on this thread so stop getting pissy because i am not just accepting what you people say, i am carefully considering the details. Alot of what is said makes sense but there are a few details noone seems to be able to hold together with logic. The difference between boundaries and demands for instance is definatly something i want to discuss more.


And I have been reading this thread with my wife, she will have some comments to post on here in a day or 2. I will let her give the details but i think essentially she agrees and disagrees with me and you guys. I think it will be interesting to get her perspective on this.

We've spent 3 days discussing the same thing with you over and over and over, with no indication that you're 'getting it'. This has become a pointless debate. THIS is the source of my frustration. You asked for advice, got clear, concise responses from a large number of people all telling you the exact same thing. It's been explained, re-hashed, discussed, but never changed. Yet you still don't agree.

What more are you looking for on this thread?

ok 2 points

About blind trust vs real trust.

i don't think my 12 years can be called blind trust, my wife earned every bit of trust from me in that time and backed it up with appropriate action and copmplete honesty.

i mean if my wife was tested many times in our early and never failed what reason could i have to be not trusting her. I am not saying you guys are not right about this, but she did earn every bit of that trust. There are no blank spots or secrets in those 12 years.

I feel that after the first affair i wanted to give her room to be tempted again so i could test her, she knew this and i think most definatly it was a mistake. But I still need to see her get tested and pass the test, we have failed too many tests and our marriage needs some passing grades.


On the difference between boundaries and demands.

Ok here is the supposed difference correct

Demand = "if you have sex with other men i will divorce you"

Boundary = "i would like to have a wife who would not want to have sex with another man, i want a wife who wants to have sex with me"

Then the other difference is that in a demand punishment is used as a motivator.

Ok well call me dense but unless you expect me to let her have sex with another man and do nothing about it a boundary sounds alot like what yopu people have been telling me i have been doing wrong for 12 years. Not being firm.
No matter how i sugar coat it i am saying essentially the demand aren't i. Because if she does not listen to my boundary (as has happened in the past) and ignores me am i not going to react to it? or am i just going to keep whining at her that i don't like it. That sounds like a flimsy boundary to me.

The bottom line is this a boundary is something like
Sex with other partners is unacceptable in our marriage for either of us. The act of cheating on the spouse is disrespectful and damaging to the marriage and family. The consequence of which will be the wounded spouse running in pain from the marriage and family.

The only essential difference i see between a boundary and a demand is the wording and delivery. We can sugar coat it with marketing but essentially its the same thing, the punishment or reaction is still there, as it should be IMO.

i think boundaries AND demands are necessary, but they must be soften and strengthened. Demands are ok if they are not unreasonable and take into account the other spouses feelings. Boundaries are good as a line in the sand we are all aware of but it can not be done in a wishy wash manner. thjat would be me doingh exactly what you guys say i should not be doing, not being firm.

I'm looking to step correctly as i move forward, if want to know it.

But essentially i have heard that i was too weak in the past and i brought this on myself by not taking charge.
The i am told that i need to be firm. i say ok that seems reasonable for a while only under certain circumstances.

but as people on this thread have told me if i demand that she not see any friends i do not like that would be bad rather than good. A demand.

Then i am told not to demand but request as a demand uses punishment. i am just logically saying if i was weak before and this happened , then why is the answer for me to simply request my wishes and not try to enforce them with the imminent punishment of my reaction if my wishes are ignored.

The way i see it and the way i the way i think my wife sees it is the answer is somewhere in between what you guys are saying (which i see as one extreme) and what i am saying (which is another extreme)

Some demands are necessary, but boundaries are more suitable to a happy relationship, but if boundaries don't work then demands musdt be made.

If i say " i want a wife who doesn;t want to have sex with another man" what do i do if my wish or request is ignored?
Request some more?

i am sorry to be a bonehead to me but this sounds like either "there is a punisdhment motivation" or "you cannot ber too firm and make demands" which sounds pretty much like what io did for 12 years. make the boundaries clear but not enforce them by watching and protecting my relationship.

My wife agree with many of you that i shopuld have put my foot down firmer about some of her activities, but at the same time she would not be very happy if i was trying to veto her friends upon my personal whim or severly limit her activites outside the home. She goes to a gym, works and is starting a business. All these things make me nervous if i feel i can;t trust my wife so would become targets under the boundary rule. but i don't want to walk into doing more love busting either.

I am appreciating the dicussion, my position has changed during this thread several times so i do resent being called close minded or unwilling to get it. If that were the case i would not be sitting here discussing it. But a discussion requires carefiul looking at the details of what a theory put into practice will do. I feel that some of the details are a wee bit fuzzy or difficult to simply apply a general theory too. Different circumstances require different reactions, sometimes a gentl;e boundary is good, sometimes a clear red line in the sand is required.

remember i am here because i didn't stand up immediatly stand up and say NO FORMER BOYFRIEND CONTACTS, i said well i guess thats ok as long as you understand not to disrespect our marriage and family etc. It didn;t help, i should have stepped in with a firm hand. So i feel like stepping gingerly going forward as i think i have made things worse before in both ways, by being to demanding and by being too weak and wishy washy



So like i said she is right in the middle of our 2 positions.