I just want to thank everyone for your support. The most important thing that I have learned through all of this is that my feelings, and my husband's feelings are all completely normal. There is a process to go through, which I didn't understand, and I know that in time we will hit all the stages and come through this. That makes everything more bearable, just knowing that there's an end in sight (though perhaps I can't see where yet, at least I know it will come).

Please don't mistake my understanding as just giving in to my husband or rolling over and taking it, but rather that my marriage is the most important thing to me and I am willing to do what it takes to save it. By far, the most important thing in our relationship has been our honesty. While that seems ironic (to me, not just to you) considering the situation, honesty is what brought us together and it is what will keep us together over the long haul.

Ahnold is not by any means perfect, but neither am I. I have made my share of mistakes in our marriage, the EA for example, and Ahnold has been compassionate enough to help us come through it. Believe it or not, I feel so fortunate to have him in my life that the thought of losing him, even in light of his betrayal to me, just about kills me.

Ahnold and I went through his divorce with his ex-wife together, so I know what nasty divorces are like. I am not willing to engage in that and I am not willing to take my children's father away from them.

I have made my share of demands in order to overcome this situation, most notably to get the nanny out of the picture completely, and I refuse to be made a fool. Ahnold knows that he has some making up to do to me, but if he tows the line like he promises, I will keep him around for the rest of his life.

Truthfully, the nanny is generally a very nice person, but I have to agree that this evil deed makes me question whether in fact she is evil.

Note to Ahnold: People of the Lie. How does the nanny fit into Peck's definition?

Fortunately, my counselor is a wonderful lady that is helping me to understand the stages that we are going through, encouraging me to take good care of myself, is concerned about our children, and respects my decision to stay with my husband. She has warned me that this IS a rollercoaster and to expect my feelings to come bubbling to the surface at some unexpected times. Knowing that makes it all less scary.

Your comment about me trying to play the martyr makes me angry. Despite what I did, we have a strong marriage. I don't want your sympathy or pity. I agree with your opinion that now is not the time to play the martyr. I F'd up and am willing to do whatever it takes to make it right. That is what I meant.

I know you may find this extremely hard to believe, but I am actually trying to do the right thing.

Shelly,

Thank you very much for your nice message. I am so sorry for what you had to go through and know how difficult it must have been for you. I know both sides of the fence, first as the BS then as the WS. Affairs are evil.

I hear what you are saying and think you are giving good advice that is very useful. FF and I have an extremely strong marriage despite what I did. We have a huge amount of respect for each other.

We are already healing, believe it or not. We are both scared and hurt, but we are falling even more in love each day as we lock arms and tackle this issue. Part of mutual respect is knowing each other's boundaries. We both are okay with the other voicing them and do our best to respect them. If I cross the line, I am gently reminded, as is she.

We are both okay with this, If FF wanted to rage at me, she would, but she chooses not to because I asked her not to.

I didn't read any of the responses..

but let me just say...

you have every and any right if you want to scream throw and break stuff..have at it....

there is no advice here that says respect his choices to cheat on you...

not any of it says to do that...

all that ranting raving and screaming will break down communcation...
and drag this out farther...

but you certainly can ....
anyone can

ARK^^

thanks TRU... I was going to mention the same thing...

R O L L E R C O A S T E R

up

then down fast

be ready!

?

your relationship began while he was still married?

how is this?

Pep

Ahnold

You seem to have set clear boundaries for yourself, in terms of what you will allow or not allow from your wife. Are you open to a discussion of those boundaries?


So you accept her right to describe her feelings of pain, humiliation, betrayal and loss?


What are 'verbal attacks'? I'm assuming you mean bursts of anger vilifying you as a person? Do you think those are unreasonable given the very recent nature of your wife's discovery? If she had survived a plane crash a couple of days ago, would you expect her not to be having moments of traumatic fear, and episodes when her behaviour was 'abnormal'? Do you feel this is a valid analogy, or not? How long a period (if any) do you think is acceptable for her to have periods of traumatic acting out? A month? Two months? Ten years?

Are her verbal assault permissible if they aren't made directly to you? You suggest that it is OK for her to express them to a therapist, but not in your presence. Do you object to her venting her anger 'in your face', or do you feel she should not have those feelings at all?

When she is in the middle of a 'verbal attack', how do you feel?



It's certainly within your power to do so. It's your right to set boundaries for things that hurt you once you have established that the feeling of hurt comes from unreasonable boundary encroachment. For example: if you park your car on someone's foot, chances are that person will beat on your window, screaming and cursing. This is likely to be frightening and hurtful to you, but it is not an unreasonable boundary encroachment, and to set your boundaries to 'No' as self-protection is not respectful of others' rights to protect themselves from you.

Do you think there is any possibility that your boundaries are subconsciously in place to protect you from experiencing your own shame and feelings of guilt? You have, after all, had quite a long time to prepare defences for this moment.

feelingfoolish, I would like to ditto what Tru and Pep said, be prepared to experience this anger for about TWELVE MONTHS at least. Many seem to peak out around 8-9 months when the shock wears off and fury and disgust really sets in. After that phase, if you have a cooperative, supportive spouse, things should start to get better.

I am just saying this so you will understand this is not going to go away overnight. Harley likens adultery to BEING RAPED; personally I would compare the trauma to that of the death of a child, except it was done on purpose. In your case, it was worse because you were not only betrayed by your H but by a so-called "friend" who was not really your friend at all.

ahnold, I commend you for telling her. You owed her that, and I appreciate you were man enough to tell her. Please try and understand the great depths of pain she in and will be will in for the next year. You are going to have to be willing to go to any length to help her undo the damage YOU HAVE DONE TO HER. And that includes being tolerant of her anger and fury. After all, she did not volunteer for this, you did. This will not be easy for either one of you. But at the end of the road, you can REALLY have a good marriage; one that is based on honesty.

Sorry you both are here, but you are in the right place.

Thanks everyone for caring so much, but this thread is now starting to cause more emotions in me that I'm not quite ready for. At my request, my husband and I are ending this thread and persuing whatever counseling is necessary so that we can have the express one-on-one and immediate interaction of a trained therapist.

Thanks again everyone for making me feel not so alone. I am certain that we are headed in the right direction.

ff, please try and find a PRO-marriage counselor who understands the dynamics of adultery. Most are not pro-marriage and most do not have the slightest understanding of adultery, much less an effective recovery process. Many cause MORE HARM than good.

If you can swing it, the Harleys are simply the best. They are pro-marriage and are specialists in maritial recovery from affairs. They won't waste of a minute of your time and will be worth every penny. They offer phone counseling for $185 an hour, if you are interested.

I wish you the best, ff, we are here for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Totally understandable you need to seek quality MC after this trauma.

I'd like to point out ... that this discussion is not the root cause of your discomforting emotions ... adultery is.


Pep

ff,

I'm sure it is difficult in the midst of this, but going back to consider the question of how your relationship began might give insight into your husband's behavior. I hope you are not running away from Pepperband's question.

Ahnold,

I'm sorry that I neglected to commend you for confessing in the first place. I imagine that was very difficult to do, and right now you might be feeling that it was a mistake. I don't think so. I think it was a step on the path toward genuiness in your marriage. I was not trying to make you angry with my "martyr" comment - just making an observation. If I was out of line, I'm sorry.

I'm a betrayed husband myself - and listening to my wife complain about how inconvient or uncomfortable it was to have to waste time discussing her affair was certainly something that would make me angry. I expect it would anger your W too.

I'll ask the others on the forum : Was I out of line with the "martyr" comment?

In any case, I wish the best to the both of you and your children as you go through this difficult time.

-AD

Just saying goodbye. Thanks for the apology AD. My issue was with your assuming my motives despite the lack of evidence.

Ark^^...thanks, you are one of the few who got what I was saying.

For the record, I was legally separated from my ex when we met and fell in love. We are not the product of an affair.

I left my goodbye post on the "Just Found Out" forum.

Ahnold,

In my state at least, "legally separated" is married, and a relationship outside of the marriage while married is legally "an adultrous relationship" - and can be used as grounds for divorce.

-AD

My wife and I further discussed whether or not we would continue to use this board. We agreed that it would be a personal choice to use the board or not. I intend to use it, if at all, to help others, as this will help me with my personal healing and will not further burden my wife who is already carrying a heavy load. That being said, my response to AD is below:


This is true in my state as well from what I can tell through my research. If you have not yet been granted a final divorce decree, you are still legally married, and therefore, adultery could be used as a legal grounds for divorce against you.

You raise an interesting point. You state a legal fact that applies in your state and mine, but you don't tell me why you are telling me this. I am left to guess.

This legal point does not seem at all relevant or helpful without any context.

This Web site and discussion board is about relationships. If you look at marriage in terms of a relationship, would you not agree that marriage is a mutually agreed-upon loving union of two people who pledge fidelity to one another? In other words, two people have made commitments to each other and expect the other to remain committed?

When one partner breaks the commitment of fidelity, then we have the relationship problem that we are here to discuss. In the case of my first marriage, my ex and I had released each other from these commitments, separated, and filed a consent agreement regarding marital property, custody, visitation, etc. We both considered ourselves to be irrevocably separated from the other by mutual agreement, and did so because we were completely incompatible.

From a relationship standpoint, there was no extramarital affair, as we did not consider ourselves married to each other. The other was free to do as they wished with their lives, and it stated as such in our consent agreement.

Legally, however, we were "married," as you point out.

Back to the reason this board exists and why I came here, and why I invited my wife to come here.

Emotional support

Please explain in as much detail as possible:

1. How this legal point is at all relevant to our situation
2. How this is supposed to help our relationship
3. Your reason for saying this to me

I am the one who first noticed that your current relationship began while you were a married man.

Here is why I think it is important ...

marriage is important ...important for the 2 individuals, and for the extended family, and for society as a whole

when marriage is de-valued people suffer

when a new relationship begins during one's marriage, it is a signal that the married person had devalued his/her vows when it becomes convenient to accomodate something they want to do ... like get involved with another woman while still legally married

the justifications

"our marriage was on paper only"
"our marriage was dead"
"we don't have feelings for each other"

... are strikingly similar to the justifications people use when starting an affair ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

When someone dates while still legally married, what does it mean? I think it means that for that individual, the marriage vows can be disposed of when ~feelings~ draw them outside the marriage...

and when that same person then goes on to break their vows taken during their ~next~ marriage .... it is not really very surprising.

Yep....what pep said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

However, what do we about folks who come here whose marriages had less than auspicious beginnings? Do we say....well ya got what you deserved....OR do we have some hope for the future about how to rebuild a better marriage....and one that has some hope of not further complicating the lives of the children involved.

I think it's important Ahnold to understand the marriage dynamics associated with second (or multiple) marriages...especially when the second marriage begins before the previous divorce. Yes, it increases your odds for repetition of unresolved issues....and those issues will follow you into the future until you recognize how very vulnerable you are.

Having said that....what can you do to help rebuild trust and put these issues into a framework of accountability that can improve your marriage? Well....not sure if you saw my earlier post...but I also found out about my H's ONS a year after it happened. It was the second time around for me....and yet....despite the ugly odds I was given (even here on MB) my marriage has recovered.

What did it take? It took a greater amount of accountability than I think most folks would need. It took a restructuring of our life to make time for each other....and a level of openess and honesty we had never achieved before. But along with that....it took a raising of consciousness, a willingness to make amends for the past and create more compassion for us, our children, our community etc. I felt as though my husband was "missing" a vital piece of his conscience....that was very scary for me. So part of the conditions for reconciliation....were confessing to his priest and doing community service. There was no way to address the wrongs done to another BS....because his trangression occurred in a foreign brothel....but in your case....addressing the past may be possible and my help the two of you to build a much stronger future.

This board is for "support"....but don't confuse support with validation. Sometimes support is about helping someone be courageous in the face of poor odds and crisis. Sometimes support is helping someone do what they know is right. Your wife has no right to abuse you....but I hope you'll give her a free pass to say every vile thing she needs to for a short time. Agree on a timeframe where all her questions are answered and she gets scream her rawest objections. Infidelity is it's own form of abuse....it's not anymore difficult to handle than your wife's anger. So you both have a heavy burden. At the end of it....and when the crying is exhausted....you'll both be ready to try something else.

I send you strength and most sincere wishes for success. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

yep

and you will embark on your own discovery of how you allowed yourself to devalue your own integrity

because

when you break your marriage vow

you don't just hurt your wife

you hurt yourself
when you break a solemn vow you made

you break your own heart as well

you smash something important to you ... and then what?

your honor and your integrity are probably somehow attached to your sense that you are a man of your word ~~~> to yourself

if you make a promise to yourself, you know you mean business ... or ... do you know you might break your word if the opportunity arrises ?...

how we face life's difficult choices defines us

so you might recognize a pattern in yourself where you put aside your vows in order to have some temporary need met ...

and change yourself so you will not repeat breaking your word to yourself

I think you're up to the task

Pep

Hi Pep, thanks for the response. I understand what you are saying, but I want to give some food for thought.


I totally agree.


It wasn't "during" my marriage except by one definition. Which of the following groups' definition of marriage and what it means is most important to the couple in question?

- The couple's view
- The government's view (legal)
- The Catholic Church's view (DW and I are Catholics)
- Others? Look up the definition of "Marriage" on Wikipedia for an eye-opener!

Couple's view - and mine: In my first marriage, we were like oil and vinegar. Nothing in common. For the sake of our collective sanities, we agreed that the marriage was over. I left the home, started my life without my ex for reasons of incompatibility. At some point while separated, after I had mostly recovered from the emotional trauma of our split, I decided that I was tired of sitting home with no social life, so began dating again. I met mw DW during this time.

Government's view: Still legally married, but also legally separated, with all ties and obligations severed via a court-ratified separation agreement.

Catholic Church's view: I am actually on my first marriage. I have a certificate of "Lack of Canonical Form" to prove it. According to the Church, I was "living in sin," and was never married before.

My relationship did not begin when I was a married man, other than in a legal sense, and even then with government recognized separation. My ex tried to use adultery as a grounds, but the court would not allow it because I didn't meet DW until after we were separated.

Just to be clear, we were legally, physically, emotionally, and financially separate from each other, and considered ourselves single except that we were waiting for the state-mandated waiting period to expire.

In my humble opinion, if the couple does not consider themselves married, and enthusiastically agree that they are not, they really are not.


N/A in my case. I was running away from a horrible marriage with no real plan as to what came next. As for devaluing our vows, the love busters started on day one and continued until the end. I don't think either of us listened to our vows or even tried to keep them, though neither of us ever cheated on the other. We just argued all the time. I was incredibly immature and enamored with the idea of being married, with no clue what that meant. I married one of the first women that came along, which is a recipe for disaster.


I agree... that is sad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
We just couldn't stand to be around each other any more. No justification for anything, just a really bad match of people who loved each other at first but quickly killed that.


I can only speak for myself. Despite evidence to the contrary (my affair two years ago), I highly value my commitments. When DW had her EA 7 years ago, I was devastated, but my commitment to her is what helped me to hang on and work through it. I am wholly committed to my wife and will never do that again. I made a big mistake, I admitted it unsolicited, I am ashamed of it, I apologized and am making amends for it, and I am stronger as a result of what I learned from it.


I am sure this happens all the time. I know from reading on this site that it is very common. Just because something can happen however, doesn't mean it did. The only data point that matches this theory in our case is that I didn't have a divorce decree in hand.

And as far as analyzing why I broke my vow to be true to DW, this theory is not the root cause. There were dynamics in our marriage that I couldn't handle very well and became depressed, lonely, and desparate for companionship. I allowed myself to forget about my vows and violated them. I screwed up.

Wow, I can't keep up, so many posts!

Star... as for the "Repeat Offender" dynamics, please see my last post.


Excellent point. How about point out that there are some dynamics that are fairly common and ask if they think this might be going on in their case? We are all fallable, but we all don't have all the facts, and this is a great place to learn. Similarly, each couple and relationship is different, and I don't believe in "one size fits all." Frankly, I am feeling like some people here have already diagnosed why I strayed, without knowing us, without knowing the incredible strength in our marriage, and without knowing the dynamics of my failure to keep my vow.

As for rebuilding our marriage, we are already making strong headway. I just asked my DW for a quote on where she thinks we are in our recovery, and she said, "We are maybe 25 - 30% into it already, but this is only because of the incredibly strong foundation we already had, and that we are very deeply in love." I would agree. We know there will be rough times, but we are getting back to where we were.

As for my inner feelings about myself, I am working on this incredible pain and guilt. I walk around with the feeling of a knife in my chest, ashamed of violating my personal ethics to both myself and my marriage (Pep). As for knowing whether or not I will break my word again, I doubt it. My issue was more being lost in a haze of pain and not thinking things through. I deluded myself into thinking that nobody would get hurt. I learned that I was foolish to think that. I learned what pain REALLY feels like. I burned myself once testing the stove, it ain't happening again.

I will take your advice though to look for the warning signs so that this does not become a pattern with me. I have already committed to making sure that I discuss any such feelings with my DW early on so as to nip it in the bud should it occur. Neither of us want it to happen again, and I would eagerly tell her because I know she would help me. She is the woman of my dreams, why would I want anyone else?

I have recognized a pattern in myself, but not the one you are telling me about. I realized that I am very flirtatious with women who are not my wife. I have pledged to cut that out, and if I get the urge to do it, go flirt with my wife instead. It's a bad habit I have, that in that one case got too serious. I know that is the road to ruin, so am going to work to not drive down it, but instead hand my wife the wheel if I come to that road.