wonderful insight

.... good for you !

Ahnold,

The "flirt" pattern is one my husband also had to deal with in order to reinforce good marital boundaries. Part of that comes from his need for admiration. As a couple....we each had an opportunity to impact that pattern. I realized, as his wife, that I needed to give him more admiration (and less criticism). He, needed to figure out why his need for admiration was so high. You see....it's sometimes not enough to just be more accountable....it's also important to realize what drives our own needs and that takes the raising of consciousness I was talking about. He had to learn to value humility as much as he valued admiration.

I will tell you this....though I would not want anyone to learn about themselves or their marriage in this particular way....the pain of this experience in my marriage has given us insight into our own humanity that is priceless. We are stronger not weaker. When I came here....many people discouraged me from remaining with someone they called a "serial cheater"....but if I had listened to that advice....I'd be divorced right now instead of living the wonderful life that we've built together. My husband has been laid bare....and I have forgiven him. That's a pretty powerful thing. I still have some triggers....but even those are losing their power as time goes on. I'm able to weigh those awful "weeks" now against many years health and change.

Ahnold, I wish he'd had the courage to confess as you did.....I do believe that shows more strength of character than my husband possessed at the time I found out. I didn't want to forget to tell you how much I value what you did. It was a dark gift....but it counts for plenty.

I will keep the two of you in my prayers....and to feeling foolish....the pain will subside. Your marriage may never be free from blind trust again....but then....maybe that's a good thing that we all recognize our vulnerability. Dr. H says that unconditional love and blind trust are folly....and I believe him. I'm living in an honest marriage. It's not perfect. It's not pure. It's not unsullied and idyllic....but it's real, it's strong, and I'm happy again.

Have hope. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

star:

" Dr. H says that unconditional love and blind trust are folly....and I believe him."

It really chaps my hide when I read this stuff. I know W.H. said this, but I think I know what he means by it, really.

Most people don't understand what unconditional love is, and so they misapply it 2 cases of infidelity. But it's the misunderstanding and the misapplication of ulove that's follly, not loving unconditionally.

-ol' 2long

Star, I have great admiration for you and your husband. You let your love win.

We are letting ours win as well. I said earlier that things are going well, and they are. Our day has been wonderful. I am giving FF what she needs, and she is being wonderful, having tapped into a strength neither of us knew she had. I told her tonight (in the whirpool, Asti, candles, very romantic) that I admired her for her ability to cope, and that I admired her for not letting me and the OW get away with it. We didn't deserve to get away with it, though I had this selfish hope that she would.

I appreciate your praise, but I don't deserve it. FF deserves all the praise, here. I caused the problem, her fortitude has anchored us and given me strength as well. The pain has greatly subsided. I told her tonight that now when I hold her and kiss her, the dark cloud of guilt that cast a shadow on my ability to love her is gone. I feel badly about what I did to her, but I feel that the love I give her now is so genuine.

So, I know what you are saying. If you have read what I said in my very first post over on the Just Found Out board, one of my motivations for coming clean was to rid us of that shadow so that we could truly be close.

I am very humbled by this experience. Greater powers than us are at work here.

I used to accept this definition, much like you. But after some study, I acknowledge that the marriage vows are mainly a committment before God and are promises you make to yourself. More than promises you make to your spouse.


I wonder why your wife said this:


It was a nasty divorce, even though it was mutually agreed upon. Why did things get so nasty if you both equally wanted out?

"visitation".... means kids

Was visitation the source of the nastiness?

Pep

Yes and no. Actually, it didn't get REALLY nasty until after his soon-to-be ex-wife found out that he was dating me. Then she pulled out all the stops, refused to do things she agreed to before, moved away even though she hadn't bothered to report it to the courts, and tried to turn the kids against him.

While I believe that his ex truly wanted OUT, I think she had this misconception that he should still pine after her in misery. The fact that he moved on is what pissed her off and then caused serious nastiness.

I have thought a lot about your question over the years. My thoughts about leaving began with "Constructive Abandonment" by her...a legal term in my state meaning that we were both there, but she had emotionally abandoned me. We had been arguing a lot, and at one point she literally stopped talking to me altogether - for months. I tried to get MC, I tried begging her to talk, I tried everything. She spoke only a few sentences to me the entire time. I finally said, "Maybe I should just leave." She said, "That's what I want."

The day I left, she popped a movie into the VCR and ate popcorn as I carried my stuff out to the truck. I came in and said, "goodbye." She ignored me. I left and moved into a tiny apartment with two rooms, leaving behind almost all of my belongings.

At one point, I was trying to talk to her on the phone about getting together to talk, and she screamed that she would see I never saw my son again if I didn't leave her alone (One phone call isn't stalking, I don't think).

So, I left her alone. When papers were later filed and things got heated in court, she started getting digs in on me in every way she could. Financially, keeping my son from me, etc. All of this started after we had dinner one evening to talk, and she asked if I wanted to come back and I told her it was too late for that. I was seeing someone.

I hear what you are saying about commitment before God, but I don't want to get into a religious debate about this. Everyone's religious beliefs are personal, and I have mine. There was no way that so-called marriage would ever have worked. Sometimes divorce is necessary. I don't want to argue that point either, it's an absolute truth to me. I lived a perfect example of it. I will also say that there is no way I will ever be divorced again, because I believe that divorce is impossible when you are with the right person.

I also want to add that my first marriage shaped who I am, but it in no way has negatively affected my real marriage. We are stronger as a result of it and know we will never split. I was divorced over 12 years ago, that's 10 years before my A. They are not related.

I think most women would actually want to reconcile a marriage that has produced children ... that's been my long time observation.

Perhaps she still had hope for an intact family .... it's not only possible, it's likely.

I have also observed, that people (and MEN in particular) who .... as you say "move on" rather quickly to the next relationship

.... without an appropriate time for mourning and reflection and learning .......

start their next relationship from a hole they've dug, rather than a mountain they've climbed.....

it's not a fatal flaw
but is does demonstrate impatience with the discomfort of grieving and a lack of self-soothing skills

I don't really want to "post-mortum" your first marriage for no reason....

It seems to me

and I could be wrong

that you perhaps needed to be alone for awhile

because you needed to find some sense of yourself

and what I have noticed over the years

is that "good people" have affairs because they seek an identity

I am not saying I disagree with Harley's theories about ENs and all of that....

but the affair-seeker is looking for a reflected sense of self ... many times they will say "OW/OM just made me feel so good." .... and what they leave out is "about myself"

but what happends in long term relationships that rely on one person reflecting the identity of the other ... it moves

growth demands it

so

thinking about what you might have lacked going INTO this marriage

might be useful

what do you think?

Pep

The marriage produced one child, my son. SHe had children from a prior marriage. We married less than three months after we met, not really knowing each other. We adopted my son when he was a baby because my ex could not conceive due to surgical sterilization during her first M. My ex is a good mother to him. I am a good father to him. He is 17 now, and a fine young man. I see him at least every two weeks and spend most of the summer with him when he isn't playing football. Back then, my ex didn't believe as I do that a child needs both his parents. She fought in court to try to get all of my rights removed. There was no good reason for this, and no argument that held any weight. The worst she could say about me was that I would yell at her during arguments (true back then). She moved away to another state during the divorce. She took my son almost 200 miles away, making things harder for me to see him, refused to give me their phone number, refused to let me call my son. I never missed a single visitation in all of the past 13+ years. The only ones we missed were when she didn't show up or decided there was some reason he could not come. Once in awhile, she even had the courtesy to let me know so that I didn't drive up. Please show me where in all of this BS where she was trying to reconcile for his sake??

I don't argue that *some* men have the capability to move on more quickly than women, I believe it. If you are placing a value judgement on this, I might just have a problem with that, however. Being wired differently doesn't make me wrong. There are things about womens' behaviors that are uniquely female, and I would be a real jerk to tell them they are somehow wrong or bad because they don't act the way I do.

People have a tendency to be narcissistic. When someone does something, they say how dare you do that, I would never do such a thing - thereby applying their own personal standards as a value judgement against others.

I also have an issue with applying a theory or stereotype to everyone. Each person is an individual as well as a member of family and community.

What I think is that life is a journey. You start off knowing nothing, almost literally. You learn as you go. As a young man first coming into adulthood, I had a lot of issues with my self-esteem. I am not just starting my journey personal of growth. I have been on this trip for a long time. I am very much in touch with myself and my flaws. I am also in tune with those around me. I have been told that I have a knack for understanding where other people are coming from. I put myself in their shoes. I feel compassion for them. I try to help where I can. I do this because it makes me feel good...about myself.

As an example of personal growth, I remember being devastated and depressed as a teenager when a supervisor at my job counseled me on my performance. I know now he was just doing his job and was trying to make me better at mine. As for raging and screaming during arguments, I don't do that either. I learned it was wrong. I have also learned how to tell others that doing so is off limits. I respect my wife's feelings and we have already spent many many hours in our lives exploring them. We do it walking hand in hand, not debating whether or not she should have them, but rather exploring what it is that brings her to those feelings. Feelings are indicators, not the problem She has done the same for me.

I know I was flawed going into my marriage. I am far from perfect now, but I am a better person since then and will be a better person tomorrow. I was acutely aware of my issues and had been in IC, read self-help books, etc. My DW and I discussed at the time we were dating all of these things. She knew all my skeletons and I knew hers. We accept and love each other despite our warts, and we lovingly help each other to grow. This is a basic tenet of my marriage, a wonderful relationship between two people who both know and accept each other and are helping each other on this journey.

If you want to know why I was strong enough to be able to confess my A, this is why. I was not alone, I am loved, I am understood. Despite my warts.

I want to add, one of the books I had read during DW's EA 7 years ago was about getting our individual needs met in a relationship. Both partners have needs and want them fulfilled by the other. These are deep-seated needs, and if not fulfilled, perhaps will cause a person to seek out help from another source, like through an affair, or online porn, or any number of other things.

We as a couple are taking responsibility for what happened...as a couple. I did wrong, and know and regret what I did. My wife understands me and my needs better now than then. We are not just optimistic about surviving as a couple. We KNOW we will survive. We know this for sure!

I may have missed this, but I can't see on this thread...

...how did Ahnold come to be in an affair?

...if much was learned from the first marriage...

...why was the second marriage risked?

...what was the weak place?

...what was the attraction, the lure of the affair partner?



TA

I developed an emotional attachment to a family friend who had previously been a nanny. It was during a time when my DW was very depressed and focused on herself getting better. I was feeling sorry for myself and deluded myself into believing that nobody would get hurt, I could get the attention I needed without hurting anyone and nobody would know. I forgot that I would know.


First M is irrelevent to this happening. Much was learned about marriage and myself, however. We have a very strong marriage, partly due to what I learned back when I was first married in my early 20's.


See above. I did not believe it to be at risk at the time I did this because I thought she would never know, and I wasn't about to leave her. I did not and still do not believe it to be in risk of failing as a result of my confession, either. We are committed to each other.


Me. I was selfish about my feelings and not considering those of my wife.


Beyond saying that she spent time with me, I am reserving all details of this out of respect for my wife. She knows the details, throwing it up in her face again when she reads this is not fair to her. I have hurt her enough, and I don't want to rub her nose in what I did.



TA [/quote]

Ahnold, I understand and sympathise with you reason for saying this. You don't want to cause any more pain that necessary, and your wife is likely to read here.

However, whether you discuss it with her or not, it is vital that you address this within yourself. You seem very certain that, having made two poor relationship choices in your life (both resulting in pain for the children concerned), you will have no problems making good choices in the future. On what is that certainty based? If I were ff, I would not feel confident in your future behaviour.

Something pulled you towards this woman (the OW). I would doubt that the attraction was about her personal characteristics; in almost all infidelities the attraction is to a projected image - and it is the projected image that reveals the hidden longings and weaknesses of the infidel.

Women with strong self-esteem,integrity, and compassion for others do not get involved with married men and lie to the wife's face. Desperate women do, woman addicted to romance do, women who long for power do, women who hate other women do, women who are emotionally empty do, immature women do. Something was wrong with your OW - have you thought about why you chose her?

My own H, after 17 years of marriage, confessed to 4 PAs and at least 2 EAs over the course of the marriage. I had given guest facilities to several women who knew him intimately; had even lived next door to one for two years. I know very well the double pain of your betrayal to ff; it still cuts me to the quick at times, nearly four years after d-day.

I wish you a good weekend. Please be prepared for fireworks and rage - it is still quite normal.

TA

I am sorry that you had to go through what you described. It must have been extremely painful for you. I hope that things are working out for you.


I don't recall saying anything in any thread that I would be making future relationship choices. I do know that I will remain true to my wife, however. I had one very brief affair two years ago. I am not interested in having another nor am I trying to. Instead, for the last two years, I have been building an amazing relationship with the woman that I never stopped wanting to be with. My wife. Is she worried that it might happen again? Of course she is, who wouldn't be?

Thanks for the concern for my children, but they are okay. We are not fighting very much, we are actually spending a lot of time being close. When we do discuss things, it is out of their earshot. We are not splitting up nor have we even considered it, so that won't be an issue. As for my son from my first marriage, he has had two homes for most of his life, and as I mentioned before, he is a fine young man whose biggest problem is keeping his grades up.

My wife and I have spoken in great detail about why it happened. I have had two years of introspection on why I had an affair and already have some insight into my motivations and the OW's motivations. I am certain that things will be okay in the future as I have said before.

I hear what you are saying about taking a look at my motiivations regarding this affair, though I disagree with some of your notions as they don't pertain to my situation. My wife is helping me as I discover new things about myself.

If interested, take a look at my first thread in the "Just Found Out" forum, and read back on this thread for our story.

Ahnold

One other thought, quoted from Dr. Harley's first infidelity article. After writing the last post, I read some more of these articles and this really struck home. Anyone who has not read his articles on infidelity really should do so. Here is the excerpt:

"We are all wired for affairs. The only people who are exempt are those who are utterly incapable of meeting someone else's emotional needs. If you can't meet anyone's needs, no one will ever fall in love with you. But if your spouse has anything to offer others, and you are not meeting an important emotional need, commitment to "forsake all others" can become words without meaning."