I am lost and confused but strong. I have SAA and I've read it. I've talked with Steve Harley. I also know that some of the things SH told me are mutated/filtered/interpreted differently here on the Boards. I don't know why. He told me that Plan A goes for 3-6 WEEKS. He told me to Plan B until I ran out of gas. I know that my H baffled SH, too.

Plan A didn't work. I did a lot of Plan A even before I knew about the A or about Plan A. I Plan A-ed 'way too long but well within the guidelines some people promote on this forum. Exposure didn't make any difference. Plan B didn't make any effect at all. Although, I should have Plan B a whole lot earlier and probably better but that's the way it was. I did run out of gas. Announcing that I was ready to enter Plan D is what made the difference.

When H finally ended his dithering, there was finally a change. He decided ended it with OW. All of the exposure, letters and Plan B-ing didn't do that. He had to come to the place where HE could do that

What I do know is that I have found out more about my H, OW, the affair and his situation in the past month than I have in the past 2 years. He has spoken to me more than he has for a number of years. The mystery and secrecy of the A are gone. He answers all the questions I have. I know more than I want to know. I also know that he's been miserable a lot too.

I've kicked him out and he keeps coming back. I keep stating my position, pizzing him off and he still comes back. I don't have a whole lot of sympathy. I make him mad but he keeps talking and thinking. Like many people, he takes a long time to process things. I say something, he gets mad but comes back with a little change in his mindset. He keeps starting the relationship talks.

This morning, he was as down as I have EVER seen him. Depth of depression and tears. How often do you see a guy in tears? He said he "missed" OW. I'm sorry but I don't want to hear it. He needs to find the strength to deal with it and talk with his counselor. I don't want to be his crutch or ear about that person.

I do not believe that he is continuing his affair. His newest best friend at work just ended his marriage of 22 years. H got to see what that was about. H ended his A because he was confused, felt he needed to make a decision and hated OW's kids. (I believe OW's kids have seen many guys cycle through and don't like any of them.) These are not the reasons I'd like him to ended the affair but it's a start. I don't think he'll be going back. I've even taunted him with that. Why not go back, the kids will be gone soon enough? It seems to have been more of a emotional thing than a sexual thing. Not that that makes a huge difference.

Personally, I think OW will find another victim soon. I remind H that in general, woman don't say they love you and then threaten to file sexual harrassment suits in the next breath. Nice women, especially those who say they've gone through a nasty divorce and have damaged children, don't inflict the same pain on others. I don't like and repeatedly say that working with OW is a BIG problem. That is a decision that H has do come to. He needs to find a way to untangle OW from his work. It may come down to how he prioritizes his life. If I don't like the priorities, I don't have to be here.

To be realistic, I give our recovery chances at less than 50%. However, that's a lot higher than I would have given it 2 months ago. This is a tricky time when we are walking on eggshells. I know that per MB, I, as BS can be the biggest roadblock to recovery. It took us a long time to get into this mess. It's going to take awhile to get out.

For the most part, I feel strong but distant. There are many things H's said that have really hurt me. He understands that I don't trust him. We are forging a relationship we can move on from whatever direction it goes. He's spending more time with our kids and that's good. I know what I want and it is NOT crumbs.

Maybe I'm foggy sometimes but I'm lucid most of the time. I am not special nor is my FCH. He is no different from any other CH. The MB principles have made a big difference in my life. However, I'm dealing with people who will make no buy-in to MB. H and my inlaws think that the mildest exposure showed me to be a mean, vengeful person. Plan B to them was being stubborn and not working on things.

These are things that have to be worked passed. When I come back from my trip, I may decided I've had enough. H may finally be in touch with his stupid "feelings" thing. All I know is that in 3 days, I'm going to visit good friends in a far away place. Just the thought of stepping on an airplane makes me feel good. Travel is broadening. It gives you a different perspective on your life and problems.

I don't disregard people's advice. I do ask that people think creatively.

But wait a minute ... haven't you both signed divorce papers? Aren't you in the divorce process? Wasn't he all warm and cuddly and open just before he went off to sign the divorce papers without telling you?

I guess I don't get it either.

I agree. Steve was more liberal with me as well..not as strict about how to follow the plans.



What was his recommendation for after "ran out of gas". Steve was "baffled" by your WH..but yet you say he is like other WHs...



How can you BE SURE that he ENDED it with the OW? Because he is talking about her and the A does not necessarily mean that he ended it. I hope for you that he has but, IMO, you need evidence of this and/or confirmation that his NC will continue before you leave on your trip. Have you visited his apartment? Is he accountable regarding his whereabouts? Have you made surprise visits there? What about a letter from him to her..that would clear up whether his claims about how the A are true. In my personal experience with this, TOO MUCH TALK without ACTION to back up the talk can be a SMOKESCREEN. MY MANTRA: TALK THE TALK AND WALK THE WALK... There was a time period when my H was sharing a lot of information about the OW....just before he left me again...



This is what I was referring to as being the CRUMBS that he is offering to you. But I need to try to accept and to understand how much this means to you. It is HUGE to you that he is TALKING AND SHARING !!



This sounds does in fact sound like WITHDRAWAL. In response to this I say: Do you LOVE him? Do you care that he is hurting? And so, if you have come this far, why not make the best recovery efforts and BE THERE for him?



This is believable to me, too. My H "hated" the FOW's daughter...moreso, didn't like the way the OW treated her daughter..saw the REAL HER..during PLAN B...She certainly must look awful compared to you as a mother, Grape.



I've been saying that you need to know this FOR SURE.



Here you go again. This sense of "whipping him" when he's down concerns me. What kind of marriage will this be if there is Recovery? He's finally talking and you are..so to speak..beating him up about what he has to say? I thought this is what you are wanting from him.



You are wanting a MARRIAGE, Grape. This is supposed to a TEAM effort about how you TWO will lead the rest of your lives. This is what you two would work on together. Why are you saying this is up to HIM?

There seems to have been a real disconnect between the two of you. I would be ROUTING for you two to really come closer and to bond with each other. Could your H be wanting this? Could he be opening up to you to get to this? Are you opening up to him as well about YOUR FEELINGS..how HURT you are about what he has done to you?



That's just it. I'm thinking that your chances could be higher. We would like to do our small part to help you with this.



SUPER!!!



Who cares what they think? This is YOUR HUSBAND and YOUR MARRIAGE. Try to encourage your H to talk to Steve again, saying that you think that Steve can really help him with his PAIN...which is TRUE....



I PRAY NOT..Grape, your H's FEELINGS are not STUPID. Why are you saying this? His FEELINGS are REAL. I hear that this is what you have been wanting..for him to share FEELINGS with you.



Wouldn't it be wonderful to look forward to traveling with your H? We love TRAVELING, too..TOGETHER...

Are you going to Europe again?



Gotcha...Let's keep talking...

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here's my two cents...

no matter what grapegirl is NOT stupid...

NOR
is she dependant on him...

she has traversed Europe on her own.....
she has planned smashing garden parties...

she has picked up and gathered strength.....

and now for the first time she is getting the ONE

the ONE thing that was holding back her freedom...

INFORMATION

KNOWLDEDGE IS POWER....

this is the missing piece...

if she uses this time as gathering info

and doesnt get dragged down or in to it...

then with the knowledge in power gained..

she will either

be done enough to walk
or
she will make a real plan that will realistically work...

this is her time to gather...

ARK

Agreed...

BUT...I'm afraid for her..that she will be like I was early on...

I was CHARMED by the WORDS of a WS who now was TALKING..after being SILENT..

Oh, how I remember when he began TALKING to me about the OW..when he was MISSING her during our FALSE RECOVERY...

Since he was still a WS and still in contact with her..much of what he was saying was not TRUE..he remained a LIAR since he was a WS....

So it is important to LISTEN CAREFULLY but be SUSPICIOUS...and BACK UP THE INFORMATION WITH EVIDENCE...BACK UP THE INFORMATION THAT YOU RECEIVE WITH EVIDENCE....

At that point, much of the information that I obtained..I obtained on my own..when during this TALKING STAGE, I caught him AGAIN with the OW....

He TALKED HIMSELF into getting back with her again...

This is the reason for my concern for GRAPE....

My H was not really HONEST and OPEN with me UNTIL our TRUE RECOVERY....

MUCH of the information that Grape's CH is providing to her now is LACED WITH FOGGINESS...

This was hammered down to me in my regular sessions with Steve H...Steve said to me: ASSUME THAT THE AFFAIR IS CONTINUING UNLESS YOU HAVE EVIDENCE THAT IT IS NOT...

I agree... USE YOUR SMARTS, GRAPE but do not BE CHARMED by his WILLINGNESS now to TALK with you...I still say that this is CRUMBS..you see this otherwise...

I think he's moved more on THE FENCE..

He is now more of a CAKE-EATER..given that he remains IN CONTACT with her...

My opinion...

We are here routing for YOU, Grape...

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Grape, I agree with Mimi here. I don't think your WH has ended his affair at all.

At most, OW has kicked him out - or is threatening to - and he is testing you to see if you'll still let him hang around and be his pal *even after he dropped the D-Bomb on you!!!*

And guess what - you ARE letting him hang around and you ARE being his pal. He's getting just what he wants from you without the danger of letting you get too close.

You absolutely must find out for certain what the status of his affair really is. Please stop trying to believe what he is telling you. Find out for yourself.

Did you read the links in my sig line yet?
Mulan

YES INDEED!!

This says it all, Mulan.

I sincerely thank everyone. This has been very helpful.

Oddly enough, I do believe that FCH is being truthful. He is accountable for his time. I have visited his apartment. In fact, several times in the last few weeks. He even took DD and I took the complex pool party on Friday night. There is no evidence of OW. Together, we have visited his "sanctuary", his local pub the past Saturdays. He wanted to take me. He's been coming home for lunch. (He used to spend his lunches with OW.) He knows that I have lost my trust. I want to work to the point where he offers me his phone and email records. Did I say I don't trust him?

I also believe that he was the one to end it with OW. He had been vacillating for sometime. His trip started that. When I handed him the summons for divorce and said "Either work on this marriage or sign them", he was truly shocked. Even he says that was the kick in the butt that got him off the fence.

I'm not being his pal. He's spending time with me and our family and seems to enjoy it. In a sense, I'm Plan A-ing with family activities and good dinners. I am not filling the silences with chatter. He brings up the relationship talk, not me. There's a lot of fog talk that I ignore.

I don't kick him when he's down. I've held him as he cries. I try not be belittle his feelings but they do seem a bit pie-in-the-sky. I can't compete with the adrenline rush of an affair. I just ask him to think about why you'd have feelings for somebody with a history of cheating, who keeps threatening to sue for sexual harrassment, has other boyfriends and treats her kids like [email]cr@p?[/email] Big fog. He is the one who needs to find the strength to do what needs to be done whether it's ending it with OW or divorcing me. Ultimately, it has to come from within him. I think he needs to give his AD meds more time to work. Doesn't it take a few weeks for them to really kick in?

H is a man who has never had many friends. I believe he has mistaken companionship for love. He says SF wasn't there but they talk about work a lot. OW met that emotional need. During the time we've been separated, he has made new male friends. He is more open with other people. He's seeing that you can have friends that don't destroy your marriage. I've seen a lot of personal growth in him. The time he spent alone on his big trip served him well.

One of the core things about H is his work. It is an unhealthy-ly large part of his self. He loves his job. Always has, even well before OW. He is a valued and well-paid worker. The only option he sees to NC is quitting his job. To force him from his job is a sore issue. There aren't a lot of jobs out there at his level. He thinks of OW as an unavoidable coworker. I know, I know but it's a decision HE has to make. I am firm on my opinion. I've said that I would be willing to relocate our family.

ark is right that the information has made me stronger. The affair and H's life is no longer the blackhole it was. His emotions are accessible. Not knowing things is worse. Knowledge is power. The unknown doesn't hold power over me anymore.

Unfortunately, H is listening to his parents opinion about MB. He doesn't like not being face-to-face with SH. He's buying into exposure being vindictive. The conflict avoiding apple did not fall far from the conflict avoiding tree. If we can get into recovery, the parent issue is one to be dealt with. I don't understand their whole Catholic attitude. Why would they not ask for advice from their priest? Isn't that what a spiritual adviser is for? Why would you be so upset about your family knowing the truth? Wouldn't you want comfort from your family? My feeling is that these very religious folks chose their cheating son over their grandchildren. Yes, it's a sore spot.

I spoke to my counselor about the passive-aggressive thing. He's also talked with H and has some perspective. The counselor says that P-A has to be deliberate and he doesn't think H does it deliberately. He thinks it's a combo of bad timing, the need for resolution and the meds. I'm not completely convinced and am watching it closely.

At times, I think I do love this man. Sometimes when he kisses me that tingle is there. H has no interest in SF with anybody. I don't know if the V-med could help that. SF is not something I'm willing to spend more time without. I need physical closeness. I feel really beaten down and bruised. That's why going away for a while will help.

H suggested and gave full blessing for our trip. Part of it is to "pay me back" for not taking me on his other big trip. I asked him to go. The counselor encouraged him to go. H made the excuse of work committment but I don't think he's ready for a trip with me yet. In some ways, he's regretting that decision. He knows the next 3 weeks will be rough for him.

DD and I are going to Australia. We have friends there who have been begging us to visit since they moved there. My friend was a BW before she made her current, very successful marriage. She has promised me escape and sanctuary. I've promised her chipolte peppers, chili powder and hot sauce. (There are some things you just can't get in Oz.) Our daughters email and IM each other all of the time. DD is going to go to school with her while we're there. We're going to hug a koala and see an opera at the big house in Sydney. I'm going to walk on the beach and drink a lot of wine. Sympathic friends, distance and a chance to heal will work wonders.

If H makes it through that time without contact, we might have a chance. Once I'm out of the trees and can see the forest, I might be able to see my own direction. It's not all his decision nor is it all mine. If H has contact with OW, that makes my decision really easy.

Gotta go pack!

this is why I am OK with Grapes info seeking time..

she's taking THREE WEEKS away from it right in the mix of things...

she gets to look at this issue from accross the planet...

she gets three weeks to process....

she gets three weeks to protect.plan.and dream...

go gettem mate...

ARKie

THANKS FOR FILLING US IN!!

This indeed sounds VERY ENCOURAGING...for your MARRIAGE, your FAMILY and especially FOR YOU...

Have fun on your trip.

Like you..I have the WANDERLUST...

Come back and tell me why I need to wander to Australia.

I've been wondering about Australia..never felt interested in going there..maybe that will change..

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I want to make sure to stress to you that this sounds SO WONDERFUL..GREAT RECOVERY WORK!!!!

Why were you holding back on us?

You are sounding like a MB STAR to me.

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Grape said: He said he "missed" OW.

Translation: I wish I could get away from all this pain and conflict and go back to how I felt in the A--like everything in life was great because someone thought I was wonderful.

Conclusion: Its NOT about OW, its about his FEELINGS.

SO WHAT? I am spliting hairs, but it is a very important and distinction (for WS).

WHY: When WS recognizes it is not about OP, but instead about WS feelings about themselves and their own life...the dependency on OP for "those feelings" is removed. This is a liberating moment, followed by a depressing understanding that WS must do the work themselves--there is not magic pill. But for me (and for many other FWS on this board) it was a very important leap forward.

I mention all of this because you are speaking to him and you can, IMHO, "get through"....when he says he misses OW, TURN IT INTO A CONVERSATION ABOUT HIS FEELINGS. Dont let the focus stay on HER....dont let him believe for one minute that it is actually her he misses! ITs not about her! She was a pawn in his self gratification game. Its all about HIM! (I am not teaching you anything here). Its about "I am in a miserable place and want to feel good again".....

What does he describe about his feelings during the A?