Pep-

Please explain why you think that....please <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Bob,
I've been following your thread

Not sure if you are familiar with the term "Post-Infidelity Stress Disorder"...the condition mimics the process that trauma victims go through whether it is from a life-threatening experience, war, natural disaster, sexual/physical abuse, crimes, auto accidents etc.

The premise is that the BS goes through the same stages that a trauma victim:

***intense fear, horror, helplessness

***re-experiencing the event thru triggers

***avoidance of reminders

***emotional numbing

***heightened anxiety

***irritability and rage

The description of the irritability and rage details the victim as being at some point angry at themselves "at some level they blame themselves for allowing the trauma to occur...smoldering rage is characteristic of adultery victims"

In this vein it is easy to see how a BS may feel the need to forgive themselves for either/both the betrayal and the decision to accept the WS despite the lack of control over the behavior of the WS. Not that the self blame is justifiable but that despite whether it is or isn't the blame and self-anger are experienced

just thought it was interesting that this feeling is referred to in the literature so it is not uncommon

can't answer personally since I am sadly not in recovery yet

Hi cruise

I am confused as to how you can still be asking these questions after two years. You obviously made the decision to stay in the M a long time ago. Why have you forgiven her and why do you continue to love squid???

Right after d-day I made the decision that I would end the affair and restore some logic in our lives before making any permanent decisions. My vet friends advised me so and it was possibly the wisest advice I got. Also I SWORE that even if I was to lose Squid it would not be to so low and undeserving a reptile as OM.

When Squid's affair ended , I found I needed to wait while she withdrew then crashed. All the time I'm getting stronger and Squid is losing her entitlement.

I made a choice to forgive Squid some 5 months after d-day, but forgiveness is a renewable process not a single act IME.

I decided to forgive Squid primarily for my own benefit. Carrying all that hatred and indignation was drying my very bones. Also I felt that God wanted me to. It was a good decision. Why do I love her ? Dunno. Fact is I loved her even when she was deliberately hateful to me and the kids. It is alove that transcends lovebank deposits etc. Who knows why I loved her despite all that hate from her ? Now and for a long time she has been loving and supportive of me so its easier to see why I love her now.

Please forgive me if I seem a little clueless.

We're all beginners at dealing with this big stuff, cruise.

You see my H (todd 1967)after almost 2 1/2 years has not forgiven me or decided to stay in this M. Matter of fact I believe we are in the "withdrawal" stage.

Withdrawal is when the WS gets used to living without the lovebank deposits of OP. I don't know if Harley identifies a BS withdrawal. I guess there ar emany reasons why your H hasn't forgiven you or committed to stay in the marriage.

I do know this - that behaiour, not words , is the truest expression of feelings. Does Todd live with you and contribute as a husband to your life or is he physically and emotionally distant ??

Todd has similar "core beliefs" and he is in a very different place then you. WHY??? What are some of the decisions that you made along the way to get where you are now?? I feel like I am fighting inside myself everyday and am losing this battle. I have asked God for forgiveness but I feel beat and dishearted almost all the time.

I just want to understand the BS like you and todd. He tells me frequently that "I just don't get it!!" I pray about it and think about it and I am not sure exactly what part I haven't gotten! I know the damage that I have done (on so many different levels) he and I have discussed it. Can a WS REALLY ever GET the BS?? Obviously I am missing something. What is it that Squid did and continues to do that allowed you to forgive and stay??

The best I can do is point you t my edited history that seems to strike a chord with many BS who say it describes THEIR experience well too.
Click Here

Some of it makes hard reading. It might give you some insight into a BS experience.

Its a strength within myself, I believe derived from God that keeps me in my marriage, and try to forgive, nothing Squid does. She is a GREAT wife and mother once more - maybe better than ever - but the eviscerating insult of her betraying me can never be mitigated by ANYTHING she could ever do. Thats why forgiveness is so important IMO. A BS has to relise at some point that NOTHING , no torture, forfeit or investment can ever take away 1 % of the betrayal. So its best to leave it by the roadside and walk on without it.

What I'm dealing with now is the UNFAIRNESS of it. I've done 80% of the recovery work in our marrige and have achieved a really good life for all my family, but I RAGE against the betrayal of my principles that I had to do, in the name of the greater good. Squid never asked me to do that, however it was my choice to recover. Thats why I need to forgive myself.

Recovery is hard, cruise. For FWS and BS. But I believe at some time both spouses need to "sh*t or get off the pot" and either divorce or commit to recovery. I had this moment finally in February this year when I told Squid to leave if she didn't want to work harder in recovery.

We got through that crisis, but it occurred to me that Squi dis trying with all the tools she has right now to love me and invest in me. She is in no way the harpie that betrayed me 2 years ago this week. I can't divorce her now over a repented adultery however fed up I get.

ALl blessings Cruise, and Todd too.

Bob-
We have been together the entire two and a half years. We both feel that being apart would make it easier to stay apart.

As far as contributing...he does IMHO the bare minimum and that is not much. That has been a problem throughout our M.
Helping with the kids, doing things for me, etc.

You see I don't want to leave. I WANT to have a healthy happy M with todd but he is emotionally unavailable to me. Our MC says he has been that way through out our M. I know that he could be a wonderful H if HE chose to be.

A perfect example is a discussion we had just last night...he made the comment that he was here (in the M) for many reasons. I told him that I knew that the kids were one of the reasons but what were some others. He would not answer me. Instead he said, "I'm not going to throw you any bones." My interpretation of that was...I am not going to give you anything that might give you hope or let you inside me at all!!. You see since d-day he has moved farther and farther from me emotionally and has closed himself to me in every way. (except physically)

I find myself in tears a lot and thinking about the real possiblity that he will NEVER get over this. At least during the time that we are M'ed. My C (same as MC but we don't do MC anymore)says that it is a real possiblity that I may grow past him and need to move on to be healthy myself. I am and have grown past him. IMHO it's because he has grown minimally. He knows I feel this way but he gets upset with me and tells me that "I can't put a time limit on his healing." That is true but after this amount of time I would have hoped for some growth, at least the willingness to work together but I get nothing.

The thing that scares me is that I am dying inside. I try to reach out to him and I get nothing. We try to talk and we end up arguing because he thinks that "I don't GET it!" He also accuses me of being defensive. I am sure that I am at times but I have to protect myself from him (emotionally). I am lost and I can't find my way to my H. Any thoughts??

Cruise<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

P.S. It is funny (not funny haha) that you used the sh*t or get off the pot expression. That is exactly the phrase that my dad used when talking to him.

In re-reading my post, it sounds as though I am blaming todd for everything. I am not!! My frustration throughout this thing we call re-covery is that it should be just that...recovery. I do not feel as though I(we)am(are) able to recover because I do not have a H who is willing to give our M what is required to start healing. I am just lost.

Bob, todd refers to your posts alot in regards to the core belief issue. He seems to really relate to you. If you look back throughout your posts he comments some in most of your threads. He doesn't usually say much but mostly that he agrees with you or that you were able to express something in a way that was helpful for him. Even though you are in a totally different place in your walk with squid I was hoping that you might help me understand todd better since you both are a like in many ways.

Do I truly just not get it???

Cruise

Does Squid ever post?? I would love to converse with her sometime if she is up for it.

Cruise - IMO you are in an abusive relationship. He is willingly and willfully witholding himself from you as punishment.

How much longer do you intend on allowing him do disrespect you like this? How about the modelling you are displaying for your children.

Cruise - when will you consider it time to move on?

well

most of the time

around 2 years

the M turns a corner in recovery

and the PAST is finally "in the past" in the BS's head

and some more philosophical issues come forward (like on this thread)

because most (sometimes ALL) the hard-core-painful crap has been worked through in the previous 2 years

.... so the less urgent matters are taken out & settled .....

in your case

this has not happened

something has stalled

.... and for what it's worth, I don't think it's "you"

something else is the door-stop

I don't know if you can open the door or if it is permanently stuck ... but I highly recommend some

truth or dare marriage counseling

get 'er done

MORE resentments rather than less .... is NOT the norm

sorry

Pep

Both Newlife05 and hurtingless gave Very Good explanations of where many of us that said NO {to the question) are coming from!

Truly,
the examples were very on point and found myself shaking head (up and down) in agreement.
Thanx for putting that to Form, for others to read.
Good stuff! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Truly,
Boundaries and enforcing them .......yes, a large part it.......cause if I didn't enforce this {Huge huge } one ......what ELSE will I Let Slide? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
[Cause at least in OUR relationship .......there has Never been any gray area on the subject and was totally understood by Both sides].

Indeed,
what's the Point of having a so called Boundary .....if once its crossed, the LINE just continues to get moved OVER and Over and over again? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Without any Real consequence? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

[Aside: it is similar to the Strange advice I see given here WAAAY too often .....posters telling others to "once again" state what your boundary is {once its crossed for the nth time}.......even though telling your spouse is doing NOTHING to stop their behavior .
Never have quite figured out THAT ONE]. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> {puzzled! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> }
Kind of in the same vein as the 5th, 6th and 7th NC letters! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


Now On to forgiveness.
Yes of course,
we ARE to forgive those that DO Wrong against us.

However,
This is one of the Rare circumstances that Once we've forgiven a trespass ......that we Continue to have an intimate/close nit relationship with the perpetrator.

For instance:
Someone backstabs and destroys your reputation ......you forgive ......but you STOP having them over for weekend barbecues or family vacations (& basically telling them your Business)!

Someone embezzles your money .....you forgive ....but you DON'T go back into any type of a business venture with them.

Someone attacks/harms your loved ones .....you forgive ......but you Don't use them as your babysitter.

Anyway -- I'm sure you get the jist.

So yes,
Giving Forgiveness IS called for.
However,
continuing on in a relationship is Not mandatory.
This is yet another piece of the quandary we are dealing with.

This was right on the money$:

Ding, ding, ding.
You My Friend win the Prize, for asking one of the RIGHT Questions!

With all that said,
its Not unresaonable at all
to question yourself when continuing on in a relationship,
that Goes against the very Values, principles and self expectations that you've carried For many years (if not Most Of Your Life)!

Doesn't mean We can't overcome it .....just that there is Nothing abnormal with Having to Deal with it in the first place.
In fact its a good thing,
as it shows that your moral code and life vision don't just change with whichever way the "easier" breeze of Life is Blowing at the moment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sorry folks,
IMO No great mystery here with Todd and cruise.

From my readings,
more then 1 expert has commented that it Can take the BS the same amount of time to Recover (get their head and emotions back to square one) as it took the WS to get into, Live out, and then extricate themselves from the A.

Of course no expert on their situation,
but if I recall it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 7 years for cruise to "come out" and be real and truthful about her A.
(whatever the time table, its been Longer then the 2 1/2 yrs Todd has known about it).

Therefore,
it took her 7 yrs to fully Personally process and come to the FINAL decision that she Wanted her M and wanted it on an intimate and Honest level.

Now since recovery is SIMPLY the Attempt to reconcile .........its no stretch in my mind that Todd has years to decide what he ultimately wants.
You can rant and rail all you want that he needs to basically Sh*t or get off the pot ......but that doesn't mean that's the way it works.

Why is it the WS gets as much Time as they Want/Need to get into an A, get out of an A, decide to Finally be totally honest about the A .....and indeed Decide they truly want to BE IN the M for good --------(basically an Open Ended Decision) .......YET there is this complete Double Standard on the Other side of the equation?????????????????????

Makes Zero sense!
(except to try and pull out the "its not Fair" card).
Well, maybe its not ......but now your only getting into pulling a one up's men ship scenario, and the WS loses that argument EVERYTIME!

He's still there.
He's still processing.
By the experts count .....he's still got yrs left to Ultimately make up his mind.
And sad as it is,
Maybe just maybe ......in the END he will decide that this is something he CAN'T deal/live with.
Unfortunately,
that's just the Risk the WS takes when they decide to come back ........which is balanced by the BS's risk that it may just happen again.

Funny how WS's take all the time they Want and then CLAIM they are back in the M For Good .....yet don't REALLY want to afford their BS the Same Due Process they felt entitled too themselves.

NOPE,
instead now there are these "time limits" -------
and the WS's not wanting to give Equitable time .
Unbelievably,
the same time they themselves took. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Todd brought it to my attention that this particular statement that I made was confusing. I am referring to Harley's Three stages of Mind in Marriage found here:

Three States of Mind in Marriage

I think that much of the stage of withdrawal discribes us.

Thanks,
Cruise

Top Rope,

Alot said right there and I can not comment right now but will later. Thanks for your thoughts.

Cruise

cruise:
Yea,
sometimes the Yap doesn't KNOW when to stop. (that would be mine <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

I'm sure your not the only one that will have a bone or 2 to pick. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Oh well,
if anyones TOO "meanie" for me,
Then I'll get the chance to run and tattle too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Wouldn't that be Fun?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Cruise/Todd... I had hoped you two were doing better. Sorry to hear that is not the case. Todd.. if in fact you did said that you were not going to throw her a bone by letting her know the reasons why you are still in the M, well, that is just a bit too much for me. That is an intentional infliction of emotional harm. Would it have killed you to just say something nice? I have tried to understand you in the past... and again, I will say "if" you said that it is a problem.
I may not have forgiven myself for what I allowed to happen for so long... Bob P may not have either... many here have not found themselves able to forgive themselves... but to still be throwing those types of jabs out there after all this time is over the top. Is Cruise not working on the M in a way that you would like? Do you see her effort or do you think she is missing the mark? It's up to you to not let the poison of bitterness consume your life. You can maintain your standards of conduct and still be kind, caring and loving towards your W.
Remember...
"Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future."

Accept that you cannot change what Cruise has done... finally accept that and allow yourself to love and be loved again.

MEDC

Cruise,
I am so sad for you.

I can't think of any BS who gets under my sking anymore than Todd.

On another thread we have spoken of what it takes the BS to heal. It was brought up that the FWS needs things to heal as well.

Unless you are a great novelist, it seems you have done your best to help him heal. Of course if he doesn't tell you what you can do to help him heal, you can't do much can you?

What do you need to heal?

Do you think you are healing?

Do you think that you are worthy of being healed?

I think you are worthy of being healed.

I am all for marriage building, Cruise. But what kind of marriage are you building? Can you continue to live with a man who continually punishes you?

I'm fairly certain that he will respond to me as he has before and tell me how wrong I am with my thoughts.

I nearly cried when I read your post today. Throw you a bone? How cruel is that?

Cruise, you do not deserve to be continully made to feel like a failure and second class citizen. You are worth so much more than that.

I am praying for you.

I didn't do anything MORALLY wrong, but I betrayed my principles that I would never tolerate infidelity. I allowed myself to become a choice that Squid could choose or reject.

In that I wronged myself very badly whether it was morally wrong or not. Its a source of indignation within me. Just naming it is helping me.

Hi Bob. I was hoping this thread would fade away, to be truthful.

Possibly the phrase "forgive yourself" put me off. Forgiveness has already been declawed by the "forgiveness is a gift you give yourself" crowd, you ask me.

Wronged yourself very badly? Bob, imagine yourself in my shoes. You and I were drug into heck at just about the same time. We handled our situations similarly. The only difference between us, w/r/t the subject of this thread, is you stayed married and I didn't.

Right? Well the kind of stuff you're talking in this thread never occurs to me. Forgive myself? For what? Oh don't get the wrong idea. I know where you're coming from. However.

I think it's extravagant bellyachin'. Live and learn, man.

GC

extravagant bellyachin'

ROFL !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

What a brilliant and accurate description ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I can't put myself in your position, mate, just as you can't put yourself in mine. I can't envisage the unique hurt you feel, its outside my experience. I'm trying to live and learn. Doesn't a TINY part of you wish you'd kicked sparrow out on d-day in a dramatic and high minded way with a few choice scathing and pithy words ? Not your sensible brain thinking this, but that caveman brain we have tucked away round the back where the light of logic doesn't shine too brightly.

I'm not trying to draw you in matey, don't answer if you don't want. It IS extravagant bellyachin' and the thread's about dying now. It'll be at the bottom of the page by tea time. All good things mate. Really.

Bob - of course EVERY Betrayed Spouse "Entertained" these thoughts. "Returning hate for hate" is a normal human response. It is the concept of vengeance and retribution. It is also the concept that God reserves for Himself and tells to NOT seek vengeance on our own. That is different from telling a spouse involved in an affair to leave the house and different from a decision to divorce because the spouse is unrepentant and unwilling to work on rebuilding the marriage.

If you want to "forgive yourself" for having had such thoughts of vengeance, then by all means forgive yourself. But turning over that "right" to God and following God's commands in humble obedience to Him no matter what you might be feeling is NOT something you need to forgive yourself for. God commands, we Christians obey. It really is that simple. It is so because God IS God. He is Sovereign and He is the one who knows the hearts and the future and what is best for US, individually and as a "one flesh" marriage couple.

That "caveman brain" you are referring to is our innate "sin nature," that is always opposed to God and opposed to being obedient to God. It's the old "Yes, but..." lie that continues ever since Lucifer used it on Eve. "Yes, God said that, but He didn't really mean what He said. You know better than God and it 'makes sense' to you, doesn't it?"

Now let's be clear here, God commands us to forgive a repentant sinner just as God has forgiven us when we accepted Jesus Christ. God does NOT command us to remain married, even though we have forgiven the adultery. God KNOWS how difficult and far reaching is the emotional damage that adultery wreaks in our minds and He tells us that we do not "have to" remain married. We CAN divorce if we can't "get past" the sin and start a "new life together walking in humble obedience to Him as a couple." It is NOT easy, and anyone who says rebuilding a marriage after adultery is "easy" really has no idea of what they are talking about.

But the "kick 'em to the curb" innate "caveman" mentality is just that, it's our "old nature" talking, our Taker talking, our "you hurt me and I'll hurt you in return" self-protective nature talking. But the "hard part" is that we (Christians) are supposed to TRY to live our lives as Christ-like as possible. Did Jesus "kick 'em to the curb" when they betrayed him, beat him mercilessly, nailed him to the cross, killed him?" He most certainly had the Power and the Right as God to do just that. But he didn't. Why? Obedience to the Father and love for hopeless sinners who he KNEW had a better future "if only" he submitted his "human will" to the Father's will. Does he need to "forgive himself" for being obedient to the Father's will and doing, no matter how hard or difficult to his human nature, what the Father commanded "was necessary" to accomplish His will? Of course not. But you are arguing that the "caveman" mentality is superior to God's mind. You are arguing that the "old nature" is superior to the "new creation" that you are in God and are arguing that when the Scripture tells us (no matter how hard the apparent challenge in front of us) that "I CAN do ALL things THROUGH him (Christ) who gives me strength" is a lie and not God's truth. I am fairly certain that you don't intend to say those things, but what you are saying is essentially the same thing.

If you want to forgive yourself for HAVING HAD those thoughts, then move over and make some room on the bench. I had them too and I'll wager that every Betrayed Spouse has had them. "If your eye offends you, pluck it out..."
"If your hand does wrong and would lead you into sin, cut it off...." Will you ACTUALLY do that, or will you subject them to YOUR will to NOT do evil? Will you CHOOSE to not look at sin that might entice your "caveman brain?" Will you choose to be obedient to God "no matter what?"

Obedience to God does NOT require forgiveness. Disobedience to God DOES require forgiveness.

There is a difference. Usually the difference is "dictated" by who we allow to sit on the Sovereign throne of our lives.

God bless.

The "throwing a bone" incident in the Cruise/Todd situation is moving to a new thread to keep this one on topic...

Todd

This is still an interesting thread, but I'm still way confused by it.

The idea that "I will never accept my S being unfaithful, if they do, its over" is not a core belief to me.

It reminds me of the line from a Tarantino movie; "The less one makes declarative statements, the less likely one is to look foolish in retrospect"

This does not mean one should not have principles. The declarative statement reflects both our principles and the context of our current situation. The movie quote above does not suggest not having principles, it just acknowledges that the context can change.

I would think most betrayed spouses feel they would have never accepted an A, without ending their M immediately. Its an easy statement to make when you haven't been touched by infidelity. Its why the advice from those that haven't experienced it often falls short and why we turn to those that have for support. The context changes and one feels foolish for violating their declarative statement.

But your principles haven't changed. You still care about your well-being, your family's well-being, your S's well-being.

At D-day, the BS makes a choice. Whether they do it consciously or sub-conciously, they decide things will be better if the M stays together. Their were elements in that decision that you value. Maybe you value the kids having two parents, maybe you value not having to face the fear of being alone, maybe you value keeping your M vows, maybe you value your S.

I don't understand why many BS, after they make that choice, immediately start short siding the choice they made. Its like the ultimate buyers remorse. You bought a fixer-upper because you saw something there, that if you made the repairs, it would be a dream house. After the purchase, it seems like most lose sight of the dream house and get bogged down on the repairs.

What is there to forgive yourself for? Having a vision? Having a dream? Having the strength to tackle a hard job?

Doesn't a TINY part of you wish you'd kicked sparrow out on d-day in a dramatic and high minded way with a few choice scathing and pithy words ?

No, but if I ever have another d-day (doubtful), that's what'll happen. I don't regret not tossing her out, or anything else. My ex is the one gets to regret stuff.

I don't know what you can ever do to lose that nasty emasculated feeling that probably crops up now & then. I think you just have to endure it. It's something you do for squid that as a woman she might not appreciate.

GC