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I'm a bit confused, Temp.

Personal Recovery is not supposed to be at the expense of Marital Recovery.

I'm a better person AND a better wife AND a better mother, etc. because of my PERSONAL RECOVERY....

I don't understand why you would not talk to your H about reconciliation if that is what you want.

It seems like this is GOOD NEWS.

I do think that the first priority is NO CONTACT with the OW and a NO CONTACT LETTER as opposed to COUNSELING. IMO, counseling is useless if he is continuing contact.

BTW, thanks so much for your kind words to me on the other thread.

I agree. My personal recovery has not been at the expense of the marriage. I have been tending to my H needs as I can (without living together). I'm still following Plan A, not ready for Plan B. H says that he could not focus on HIMSELF while we were together; I'm unsure as to why, maybe still in affair or still foggy. H is attempting to reassure that he is no longer with OW, but has yet to follow my request for NC letter (he says that would be embarassing for himself and OW--as they have not seen/spoken for 7 mos. now). It's a definite boundary for me. I feel WE are unprotected, otherwise. Kind of like sitting ducks; it leaves the door open for both of them to transgress.

It has been confusing to me as well. Things are looking better; we are beginning to at least discuss a love for each other. H wrote a lengthy email telling me about how ashamed he is and how he feels 'unworthy'. I told him that he was always worthy, otherwise, why would I have stayed and fought. I hope that things will progress with time and care.

I feel like we may have a second chance to have a wonderful marriage. Thank you for reinforcing the feeling that I have about NC letter.

Mimi,
I thought that you needed to hear from someone who has gained a lot of insight from your advice. I may not have always seemed receptive, but you seem to understand that I'm trying, and your advice matters to me. MB has changed my way of thinking about myself and how I treat marriage/H. You are a part of that and I thank you.

There are definitely lots of positive signs in your situation, Temp..

BUT, as you indicate, you are not there YET...



Plan A includes NEGOTIATING No Contact and the No Contact Letter.

If you stand your ground on this and he wants to reconcile with you, he can and will do the NC LETTER. Who cares about the OW's or his EMBARASSMENT? Embarassment is expected and would be a GOOD THING if she is. I don't think the OW in my situation was EMBARASSED AT ALL. She thought what she was doing was OK...getting what she wanted... YUCK....



You see, "EMBARASSMENT" is not necessarily a BAD thing.

He wants to hear that you will not "beat him up" (what my H used to say) about the affair once you reconcile. He wants to hear that you can FORGIVE HIM. It sounds like he is being repentant so forgiveness on your part would be appropriate.

I'm happy to have been able to help you, Temp.

That makes coming here worthwhile to me...to hear that I am being as helpful to others as folks here were to me.

I pray for YOU to be as happy as I am today whether you reconcile with your H or not.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

My H has been discussing recovery with me (we no longer live together). We have gone out together on a couple of occassions, and it feels good to spend time together. My problem is this, I still feel fearful of embarking on this new R with H. I have told him that I feel vulnerable, and do not wish to extend myself into something AGAIN without a clear commitment to our M from him. After all, I would love to spend time with my H, but I don't want to 'date' him, as if our prior R never existed.

I have made it clear what I believe will help us to move forward (open, honest communication, no LB's, no DJ's, spending time together). I just don't know how far we can get while living apart, and I am CLEARLY not ready to have him move home. WHY? Well, in all honesty, I am afraid of him pulling the same bullcrap that I have been through TWICE with him. He's home, yeah, but he shuts himself down, just does the day to day, and let's the daily grind of life with responsibilities get in our way. I don't want to be second to anything ever again, and he's been a great avoider. I just don't know what to do. Is this normal? Do all people beginning to try to make the choice to recover feel afraid? Do WS's feel this same fear? What do WS's fear during recovery? This is so frustrating it is bringing me to tears, and I haven't cried over this in a long while.

I've been taking care of myself, son, and crazy dogs; going for long walks, spending lots of time with friends, SHOPPING FOR SHOES (Yummy). I've been reconnecting with myself, really starting to think of what I want, and now I feel a bit lost. I want the brass ring, the recovered M, stronger, better, more real, real love, honest love. What am I so afraid of? Oh crap-it!! This sucks holy he!!

This is what I have wanted all along. A remorseful H, wanting me again. GEEEEEZ. What do they say, 'Don't look a gift horse in the mouth?' Well, so far, this horse has been trouble and I think a close inspection won't hurt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Also, for those who were separated prior to recovery, how long was it before WS moved back in? Does anyone have reccomendations? I have boundaries in place that need to be met prior to that,(verbal commitment to the recovery process, MC, spending time together, working on communication, etc.), but am unsure about time limit for being apart. I don't really know how much we can accomplish apart. Does anyone have advice on this?

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I think I already told you about how I can't relate to the idea of doing Recovery living apart.

My FWH came home right away..as soon as he delivered the NC Letter.

Living apart, he would have resumed contact with her...I'm sure..she would have been pursuing him ..as she did right away......but my H was very much ADDICTED to the FOW..not sure what the case is with your H, temp...

Thanks Mimi,
It really does confirm my thoughts on this to hear from someone with a similar situation. I feel that we can spend time enjoying each others company, but we will not be 'together' again until we begin the hard work and the process of healing.

I guess it's hard to convince H, as well as those around me, that moving back together NOW is the right thing. Many feel like we came back together too soon last year (I don't agree, I feel the OW just didn't go away soon enough! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). Now that OW is completely out of picture (and I'm sure of this), and H is fogless (mostly), and I have dealt with much of my anxiety and demons, I am feeling prepared to move forward. I know it is going to be tough, but I know that the reward will take the place of that eventually. Like yesterday, sometimes my faith wanes, but today I feel better (after a good vent <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

Thanks Mimi, for all of your help; I'll keep posting and reading and learning. I've given myself more to the MB process and principles and know that no matter how things turn out, I will be okay. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I feel more embarrassed than ashamed, but I have been duped again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Thought H was starting to wake up and see what he was losing. Instead, after a few weeks of spending sparse amounts of time together, and telling me that I have every reason to 'hope' for reconciliation, he has told me that he is unsure, and is thinking about how he feels about a new 'crush' named AMY. I've never met her, of course.

I'm finished with this man; I am greatly pained, more than I thought I would be; it's almost like square one again. I have told him that I can no longer do this. I've been down this road before (similar pattern). My heart can take no more. I need to go dark, and heal. I have worked on what I can to try and work toward recovery. As soon as things begin to look the slightest bit UP for us, he bolts (not necessarily physically, but mentally, and I can tell now).

What's worse, I saw this coming. I realize that I am unable to stop it, but seeing it coming SUCKS. He says, come on in the water is fine, and on first inspection with the toe dip, everything is great, then I put my leg in and it feels pretty good, so I decide to hop on in, and it's a boiling cauldron. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I'm so disappointed. I feel betrayed, again. I feel that my H does not value me, my M, our DS or our life.

I need to write a Plan B letter. I have already told my H to contact me with EMERGENCY situations through my girlfriend (as doing it through my father was unacceptable). I've told H that my respect for him is dwindling, my love for him eroding. I don't want to move to hate, and therefore, I cannot SEE him anymore. I've told him that I need more, that this is not enough, that currently, HE is not enough. I will be more precise on what we would need to do to be together, married, in a Plan B letter. I'm ready now for a D. I don't want one, but I am ready now.

This is truly just a vent, my decision is made.

Is this as good as it gets? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I see so many people struggling here, to hold on to any bit of dignity they have left. I've allowed myself to be hurt by the one person who nearly broke me down; I allowed it! I am weak in his presence; I feel used; I feel sad; I feel of little worth. My dignity is not in tact.

I've been told in the past that maybe my H is one who needs to be shown respect, and maybe that's part of the problem, I don't show him respect. Well, I need that too!!! I have been respectful, given him time, let him in and out of my life on his D#@MNED whim, hurting me along the way; so not only do I have the disappointment of being left for another woman, I've been graced with the pleasure of being ignored on a daily basis, watching him have inappropriate relationships with OW, giving me nothing, etc.

Any help will be greatly appreciated, just being heard will be appreciated. Hope doesn't live here anymore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hi Temp,

I tried to send you a private message but they are disabled. You & I are living this nightmare in parallel. We separated on 7/9 (2 days before you two did). The pain I experience from my WH is so devastating. I am trying Plan A to make him realize what he'll be missing, like you, and it went well, I think until he announced his plans for his new job (traveling the world) and then I lost it and started crying all of the time. I am getting more and more disappointed in myself because I am letting him continue to fail me. He used all the same phrases your WH did, and I recently got an e-mail that talked about him being ashamed of his failings and his lack of self-worth. It really is freaky as I read your story and see my story within it. I was able to prove the A, however, via my snooping. Now, however, I just can't bring myself to view the evidence (cell phone, etc.) because it causes my heart to race and I have an anxiety attack. I feel so trapped by myself and mad at myself. Temp, you have given me inspiration as I read what you wrote - you are strong; I know I will get to the place you are and it makes me realize how much I'm hurting myself by letting this happen over and over again. In my case, my H just took a job traveling the world and is currently 8000 miles away. Even when he comes back from business trips, he will be returning to another state as his new "home". The crazy thing is that he says that he doesn't want to give up on the marriage and that he still wants to try. I don't know what's worse - your H doesn't want to raise your hopes while mine is promising things that are just completely unrealistic although he says he's now scared that he realizes he could very well lose me while he's finding himself.

I don't mean to hijack your thread, Temp. I was hoping you & I could correspond since our situations are so similar. I don't have children, so I'm living completely alone for the first time in my whole life. I have 2 dogs, like you, and they are my children. I talk to them - I don't know what I would do without them.

I am in the same place as you regarding the LS. I think you said you already delivered it though. I have had the same concern as you - that he would take the filing of an LS as just the same as a D and he would just "finish the job", I am sure. I am as scared as you were/are. The difference between you & I is that you fought your fears and did it. I am doing what I can - he has a new bank account, I'm moving his bills over to his new account, but I'm still concerned about our biggest loans, which are joint. He says he's taking this new job to earn more money for us to finally pay off bills and remove the financial stress between us, but it still stings that he's willing to risk our R for his own self-esteem and more $.

As far as your most recent post, you have shown him respect through everything you have done over the past 3 months. You can never doubt yourself, Temp - he knows deep down that you hung in when most wives would have already been long gone. My H basically said that. He said he's surprised I didn't walk away, and when I asked if that's what he wanted, he said no, but he just has to figure himself out. You will never wonder if you could have done more, and that should give you some peace of mind in this craziness, if not now, then someday. I often wonder if your H and my H wonder if it's so far gone, that they have caused so much damage, that it's too late to recover. We just went on a vacation together (scheduled 1 year ago with out of state friends) before he left on his trip. It was so hard to watch him (suspect him) continue to contact the OW. I told him I won't wonder every day if that's what he's doing, but guess what, that's what I'm doing. At least you're not watching what he's doing, which is what I need now. I don't want to receive his bills, see clues in his apartment, etc. - it is too painful.

Everyone tells me to work on me, that I have so much to offer. I am stuck just like you are. I know we will make it, and like you, I know that the next year will be tough, no matter what. But remember, you & I both deserve the love, caring, and respect we give. I know we do, and I know what doesn't break us will make us stronger.

I hope we can correspond. You are very strong - believe in yourself.

Are you saying my private messages are disabled or all? Anyway, I read your history on EN board and responded there, you should post more on GQII. There are more veterans trolling that board, as well as many 'same boat'ers. Thank you for your support. It means a great deal to know that you are not alone, doesn't it?

I delivered separation agreement not long after the second time H and I separated. One HUGE false recovery, followed by a dollup of hope, followed by disappointment. Be more specific about H's EA in your post, how long has it been going on? Who is she in respect to you/H? Is it physical now? Just try to include more details about what brought you to this point, besides money and such. If you want to correspond, try PM again. Hang in there.

Hi Temp,

I guess my private messages are disabled. I'll have to figure that out. In answer to your questions, OW is a friend of a female friend of H. We have known the female friend for 20 yrs. She is absolutely furious over what has happened and she is no longer friends with both the WH and the OW. This has been going on for 4 months. He swears over and over again that it is not PA but has admitted it is an EA, which is my mind is worse. He also says that he no longer speaks to her but my gut tells me that isn't true. However, I struggle with my paranoia - he may finally be telling the truth but I can't let myself believe him.

I went to IC today and that helped. I need to start living my life (I know that, I just keep circling in this situation). I have to let this go - it is way too draining for me.

I have since heard from WH twice via e-mail - he says he misses me terribly. Per the advice of counselor, I will not pursue. I'll respond that I miss him too if he says it first but I will not work so hard for this. He really needs to do "flips" if he wants this to work.

How did your H react to receiving the LS notification?

Oh, H did not like the LSA at all! He said, "I thought you said you weren't going to file for a D." I said that it is not filing for a D it is protecting myself and our son from future relations with OW. It is to ensure for the welfare of myself, and the life I am accustomed to. Now, I do feel that if H drags his feet, I will file next year. I don't see the point of staying in this M if there is no H here!

That being said, I plan A'd very well these last three months while separated (not to mention the last year prior to separation) and feel that I have done all that I can to help H find his way home. I have worked on myself, and feel strong because of that. I'm happy with myself, and have begun to understand what it is to be still. I still become angry, but it passes quickly, and I'm able to understand that this is not about me, or OUR life together; it really is his problems that are keeping us apart, and he has not been keen on turning the mirror on himself. It's not easy; I know, I didn't like what I saw in the mirror, but I do now.

I lost myself somewhere along the way, after my career, my son, my H, then it was me. Now, I come first, son runs almost next to that. I would love to put H right with me, but, alas, he is not ready. I am writing a plan B letter, and have told him to expect something from me in the mail. I've told him that I want no further contact, and the letter will give him a better idea of why, and what I need.

I'm a bit worried, as the last conversation we had was filled with tears, so I may not have left a great lasting impression, but I did stick by my convictions to live in a happy M, and that I wanted that. I told him that I did not want to punish him, but I could only take so much more disrespect and pain. I didn't want to lose what love I have left, and so I asked him to leave me be until he figures out what he wants, and then only to contact me if he chooses me, his family and Marriage (and the work that entails now). I referred to BobPure's recent post regarding his trip away with his wife; how horrible their situation was, and how they worked very hard and seemed very happy. The affair and the confusion following it did not kill their love. I told H that I loved him, and then asked him to leave. He stood there for a loooong pause, then softly said, "OK" and turned and walked out. He was crying during this time more than I've ever seen him do in a lifetime together.

I'm ready for this step; I'm frightened but ready. When you get to this point, you still have to harbor hope, and leave the beacon on, but you can move forward and not dwell so much. The man that stood in front of me is not the man I love, when he shows up, it will be a fine day indeed! If he never shows up, there will be fine days ahead.

I guess my struggle is just that: how do you leave the beacon on? It just seems like we get disappointed, they appear to be moving toward it, we get cautiously optimistic, and then they let us down again. If I "turn the beacon off" then I won't care if he comes back but I guess I'm equating "leaving it on" with waiting for him (even though I'm living my life in the meantime.

Well, for me, for now, that is where planning comes in. I didn't do a very good job this time around of enforcing boundaries. I started 'hanging out' with my H again, informed him of what I needed in order to proceed with him and feel safe, and then didn't enforce. It's not about demands, it's about safety. He knows this, though, and chose to deny me yet again. The end results in most of this have really stemmed from his choices. As I believe he may be passive-aggressive, of course, he sees this as a product of 'me' and ' our marriage', not his own decisions. He doesn't believe that he controls his actions, he believes that life just happens.

It is much easier, at least initially, to have your needs met ( at least superficial needs, ie, lust, ego) by someone new, exciting. However, when that doesn't turn out to be fulfilling, it was just the wrong lady or the wrong time or something other than "SELF". In the wake of your decision you leave destruction of friends and family, and still blame it on your spouse or the OW.

H told me that I 'made' him come home last year after his PA ended. How did I do that? I told him that he needed to decide whether or not he wanted to remain married to me, and if he did, we needed to get back together and seek help. He CHOSE to come here, but still placed the blame for the failure of our recovery on ME. Interesting theory, for a LOON!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I guess I'm leaving the beacon on by sending the PlanB letter; letting H know that I love him, enumerating the ways as best I can, and then setting our a clear plan for how we can recover. I'm not sitting and waiting for him, but I am leaving the door ajar. I will gain even more knowledge of self during this time, and be able to be more objective about H.

I think you should think up what you need advice on, post in in GQII. I don't know if you are ready for plan B. I waited until I really had no other path. I still have some love for H, and can picture myself working on our M in the future. If you wait until only pain and resentment resided within you, it may be too late, it really is your call. Post, I'll be there, and others, too. No one is here to berate you and your choices, they may give you a swift 2x4 now and then, but it really is for your own good. Lets keep this momentum...

I have had some time to think about the way that things have gone over the last three months; PlanA did good things for me, and I think helped to show WH that life with me can be grand.

That being said, having been pushed aside again, and told that he still has interest in other women, I have to preserve me now. My steam hath run out. I've had some time to cool my engines, so to speak, and realize that I'm tired, and, at this point, no matter what I say or do, WH is not ready. He cannot see beyond the world that he has created for himself over the past 1.5 years. I can no longer be his anchor when he needs one. I'm married, I want a strong and happy marriage. I love my H but this WH is not for me. There really is a difference.

I am in the midst of writing my Plan b letter, and have already set up my intermediary (my best friend). I do feel some sadness over not seeing my H (not WH) again, as he has shown his face here and there, but I am ready to really gather more steam for the life "I" must live. I am ready to move on, and need to begin now. I haven't given up on my M, I've given up on this current course. I'm ready now.

Life is going to be pretty interesting, and if there is any advice that those of you who have been through this or are currently doing this, please let me know your thoughts. I'm pretty much alone in this, not much support beyond friends and my very small family (Dad, sis, bro, mother passed 1999). I have to say, that I look forward to seeing the changes in myself; the healing of myself, and that is good. I look forward to spending oodles of time with my friends and my DS. Autumn is a good time for new beginnings...