I am sure that I say things that are hurtful to todd. If I knew what his wants and needs were then it would probably help a lot. At this point, I think he is really not sure himself what those are. So I am flying blind and guessing along the way and obviously not doing a very good job of it.
This has been and continues to be a problem in our recovery. I have been unable to get inside of todd and learn about him. He has kept himself very closed up. If JL is right about his observations then obviously it is my fault. So I guess it is my job to make a safe place where todd can come out to me and allow me to go inside. How do I do that??

JL-as afar as my dad and the comparing goes...todd and I briefly discussed it and although I felt like you took it to the extreme, todd agreed and because of that I need to do some real examining.

Do you have any advice...How do I treat todd in a way that will empower him?? How can I be totally honest with him about things without hurting him and still being truthful?? I do feel things that I am sure I have misunderstood. Someone said to us once that "our preception is our reality." That being said, how do you change your perception when it's perfectly clear??

I want to keep an open mind and heart about all of this. I truly do want to have a good M with todd. I will pray about this and talk to my C about it as well.

In the meantime, where do I go with all of this?? I am getting information from both sides and although I am getting my fair share of fire (so to speak) let's not forget my original reason for coming here to this post. Do I just need to back off of todd about being on the fence? What about those issues before the A?? Do I let him continue to blame me for most everything without really taking a close look into his own soul? Do I put my needs to the side so I can meet his?? If the answer is yes then it is yes. But I can't do it alone.

Thanks,
Cruise

Oops, I posted under todd's name sorry!!

While I have you all here...just a quick question about a comment that todd has said several times in the past and said it again last night.

It was:
That "I should kiss his butt for the rest of my life". Now at first glance this comment infuriates me on so many levels I don't know where to start. But todd tried to explain to me that I should have the "attitude" of that. Although I understand what he is trying to say, shouldn't that happen in both parties?? Is that not what you "should" be saying when you take your vows. Of course not in those exact words.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But I get the feeling that this is something that I have to do and he doesn't. He says I am not getting it. Can anyone help me "get it?"

Cruise

Expect the gamit of emotions to run strong with both of you. One time you want to help then you won't. That A virus is still alive but is slowly dying.

Do you both need help? IMNO, yes. I have made the suggestion u both call Jennifer C @ MB. That will help more than either of you realize. If the other doesn't want to call Jennifer, then the one who does should do so anyways.

Remember there are 2 types of recovery to be had here, personal and M.

Now have you both taken the EN questionnaire? If not so do. Do it once as yourself and once as your mate. Then compare.

Read His Needs/Her Needs and learn HOW to communicate with your spouse. BOTH of you read it. If you are not willing to invest this time into your recovery then maybe it isn't important enough.

L.

Who is Jennifer C?? This is the first time I have heard of her??

S&C,

You said

You and I are NOT in disagreement. I am sure Todd can do more, much more. But, he hasn't and the question is WHY?
I believe that Cruise may well have given herself, Todd and us viewers some very good reasons why. I'll go a step further. The issues in this marriage NOW, are not about the A. It is what is being focussed on, but it is NOT the issue. If what Cruise has said is true, then MY guess is that Todd hasn't felt much in this marriage for awhile now and the A is a convenient place to focus his resentment and anger. But, the reason talking about the A, counting the years after the A don't mean much is because Cruise is still comparing him (unfavorably I might add) to her father and other people. It is a lot easier to lead people than push people in my experience, and she is trying to push him instead of lead him. And as anyone knows that has tried to "push" a donkey, it does NOT work. Sorry Todd could NOT resist that.


Entitlement, ah that is the issue isn't it? I think both Cruise and Todd feel entitled right now. Cruise from upbringing and never really leaving home, Todd due to the A. Are either of them gaining anything? Nope.


Here is where you and I perhaps differ. I don't think Todd is really dealing with this because the focus is on the A, and the problem is elsewhere. So as long as the focus is on something that cannot be changed (the A) rather than on something that needs to be changed, there is little likelihood of a change in tactics or approach. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Humor me for a moment. Feelings do count...alot. If I have learned anything on this site it is that feelings really do count. They just don't make real good decision points. You may be right that his approach is destructive, but if the problem is elsewhere and Cruise is NOT really changing those things, then the destruction is going to occur no matter what he does. I am not absolving Todd from working on the marriage or treating Cruise better. I am saying Cruise is focusing on the wrong thing, thus the situation is NOT getting better. It seems to me SHE is in the drivers seat and Todd knows it. Thus, his frustration with the situation.


I don't know enough to comment on this, but it seems like a DJ to me, if outside third persons can really DJ. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I think this situation is more about something else besides the A and until they both recognize it, define it, and focus on it, there will be NO progress, even if Todd swallows his pride.

I just keep seeing: expectations, entitlement, resentment in this situation and frankly until those are addressed in a realistic manner, the A is NOT the issue. The A is just a manifestation of these things with the expected response from the other person.

Just some thoughts.

JL

Jennifer C. is Dr. W. Harley's daughter. She along with her brother Steve both serve as counselors @ MB.

Here's the link to the basic concepts and phone counseling info: Basic concepts and phone counseling intro

Phone counseling setup: MB phone counseling setup

Info on Steve Harley: Steve Harley Info

You can do this in the privacy of your own home. Since we were on the west coast when our call was made, we had our session at 6:30am.

You may want to check if your insurance will cover this session. Steve's office will ask that you both take the EN questionnaire and read Surviving an Affair. If you can also say that you have read His Needs/Her Needs, it may expediate the session. It is expensive but a good investment for you M.

All the best,
L.

MEDC - You may well be right. I am going off what I have observed over a period of time. Most recently, Cruise posted this in Bob Pure's thread.

I find that abusive. Emotionally abusive.

A. The description lacks the proper context, and is therefore inaccurate.
B. Given A, the conclusion you draw is really just a guess based on your own projections.

Are your posts abusive to me? If not, why not? What if I decided you were abusing me in these posts? Does that mean you ARE abusing me in fact?

Ridiculous! I read some real crap on here from time to time and your post certainly qualifies.

Todd

Cruise,

First, here is clue about what part of the problem is. I was NOT attacking YOU, nor was I "blaming" you.


Took it to the extreme? What do you mean? I am reflecting on what you said. What did Todd agree with? What I said or that it was extreme? Please do this examining and I will tell you why as I address the rest of your post. Oh! just a hint. He just gave you a way to heal your marriage.:) The only question is can he handle it IF you take this path. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Funny thing about hurtful things. People can and do accept some pretty harsh evaluation IF they know it is HONEST and it is in THEIR best interest. Further, you seemed to be hurt by my post, and yet it was meant to offer you some insight about your marriage based on what YOU said. Suggesting you don't accept suggestions, advice, nor guidance too well. Please consider that as well please.


Perception is exactly what I am talking about and was talking about in the first post. IF Todd preceives that you are constantly comparing him to your Dad or other people and that these comparisons are unfavorable he has several choices. One accept that he is viewed as a failure by you. Two, fight back to protect himself. Three, knuckly under (his feelings) and follow orders. There are probably a few others, but do any of these look attractive to you? You have said that given those options that they are not. You say so below.

If he preceived that he was the man you wanted, that he was loved and NOT just needed, that you would cut him some slack, and that any comments were NOT criticisms but simply remarks, do you think he would respond to you differently?


Excellent and please do talk to C about this. I really think your stated attachment to your family has hurt your marriage, not because it is bad, but because it produced expectations that Todd was not equiped to meet, especially when you two were young.



Cruise you are NOT getting any fire from me. I am simply pointing what I preceive to be an underlying issue in your marriage. Given that perception I feel that the real issues in your marriage are not the A. The is just representative of how Todd feels disrespected. If I am right and the focus swings toward how you two show respect for one another, then the A part of this can be addressed and probably already has been addressed in the last few years.

Whether he looks to his own soul or not is not your problem. IT is his. It seems to me you have enough to look at within yourself to keep you busy. In case you have not noticed I have been talking about the issues before the A.

Your affair on the ship was nothing less than disrespectful and the act of someone how felt "ENTITLED" to do as she pleased. This sense of entitlement came before the A and the lack of respect also came before the A.


Perhaps you do, but what I am suggesting is that you have a better chance of getting your needs met, if you recognize what I think are some issues in your marriage that have been there from the very beginning, and I think YOU have already identified them. The issue is how do you, start to view Todd as someone of merit and NOT compare him to your Dad. How do you come to realize that you should NOT need the level of emotional support that your parents gave you as a child? How do you change your approach to Todd, so that he can change his toward YOU. I truely believe YOU hold the key Cruise. This is not about blame, who is wrong, whatever, this is about changing perceptions and then acting on these changes, and yes you can and MUST do some of this alone. Even if you and Todd divorce you will bring the same baggage into the next relationship. You do this for yourself and you just might be surprised at how Todd reacts. I feel very confident about this based on HIS comment to you which I am coming to now.
You stated the follwoing OK, he has just told you something very important, and Oh by the way your response should have been "Which cheek?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, that is the problem I have been telling you about. He should be FIRST in your life. Metaphorically, you should be kissing his butt. He needs that level of respect and dedication from you. However there is a "but" in this and you hit it with your question. He should NOT be doing the same thing to you because you don't need your butt kissed. What do you need? You have stated you need emotional support or perhaps one could phrase it as protection. You need him to take tender care of you as if you were a flower right?

Well, the issue is IF you will kiss his butt for the rest of his life, will he protect you, care for you, love you as you need? If you handed over your life and ALL decisions to him, could you count on him to sustain you, make good decisions for you, and love you?

You see he is telling you he needs respect, love, and attention. You should be giving this to him. You should surrender to him. The "but" in this is that if you do he is obligated to care for you, nuture you, love you, and protect you.

Are you beginning to see the balance here? You have not "gotten" what he needs from you, he may or may not see what it will require of him if you do get it and provide for him what he needs. Here is where you negotiate and discuss. Here is where if you love him you enthusiastically "kiss his butt" for the rest of your life. Here is where he enthusiastically protects, nutures, and loves you. You do have to "get" what he needs.

It is sort of like the military or even a successful company. The grunts take care of the officers and it is the officers job to take care of the grunts. They each do it differently but responsibility flows both ways. In your marriage, you could decide to be a "stepford" wife to Todd, but if you do, he is obligated and must take great care of you as well.

I think given his comment your original comments are more germaine that you realized at the time.


I think he is right, but I am not sure he understands HIS obligations to you if you do "get it" and start to do it. If you lay your life in his hands, he must move heaven and earth to protect it. He is really asking for respect from you and you are really asking for emotional protection. That is my take on this.

What do you think?

God Bless,

JL

Ok - I am going to vent some frustration here.

This is a prime example of Cruise throwing something out to the boards to be sure everyone "sees" what a sh!tty husband I am. There is no learning intended, only harm. This is her usual tactic with me when we talk at home. I bring up something to discuss and when it gets uncomfortable, she unloads the cannons with some way I have "wronged" her. I must say it is quite tiring.

The fact is that I did NOT say what Cruise describes here. There is a huge difference in saying Cruise should "have the attitude" of kissing my butt and saying that Cruise "should" kiss my butt. The truth is that Cruise can never do enough to "make up for" what she did to me. That does not absolve her of the responsibility to have the attitude that she should try!

This is very frustrating. I don't know any of you personally (I don't think...) but I do care generally about how people see me. I care at work, I care at the grocery store, and I care here. You are getting a very incomplete picture of what is REALLY happenning in our house. And yes...it gets to me sometimes and I sometimes respond with sarcasm and the like. But don't be fooled. People who know me IRL would describe me as one of the most cool-headed, rational people they've ever met. When I say something on here, I mean it -- I don't sensationalize to go for sympathy. I hate crap like that! So if you want to believe I'm an evil bass-turd and Cruise is a poor, pitiful abused wife, go right ahead. Just know that you are way off the mark.

End of rant.

Todd

Your own words condemn you Todd.

Condemn how, Kahuna? It is a fact - no more, no less. If you can describe for me exactly what Cruise can do that will "make up for it", then I will revise my view and hail you as all-knowing.

Yet it's a true statement Big K.

Yes, Todd..there will never..ever..be anything that she can DO which will add the equal measure to her crime in your marriage.

That is unjust and it IS a fact.

It seems to be an area in which you are really struggling.

Injustice is infuriating..but not very decisive is it?

Tell me how that injustice affects your ability to committ to the marriage.

It is true of course. But he doesn't want to even entertain the possibility she is trying.

Nothing cruise does or tries to do will ever be enough or good enough for Todd.

Tell me Todd - Why do you remain in the marriage? Is it just to punich Cruise?

An A is a sin. Can she physically, emotionally or mentally make it up to you 100%? No more than anyone can go back in time and undo the damage that was done.

That is where 'forgiveness' comes in. Adultery is the one sin where the BS (not just God) gets to use the tool of forgiveness as part of the M recovery.

Not a forgetting forgiveness but a true forgiveness to move forward together. Will there be times the A subject will come up during this 'forgiveness' period? Yes. How to handle it? Best way is to handle it 'together'. Todd your part is to extend forgiveness. Cruise your part is to prove worthy of that forgiveness. If either of you need to go back and rehash it, then do so. That need will eventually die down. If it doesn't there is no forgiveness and D must ensue. This stuff takes time.

....or you can both continue to keep beating each other up with hurtful words. If so, there is no forgiveness or healing, just a lot of hurtful words which will eventually lead to a D.

Your choices.

L.

Todd,

Actually her post was very useful I think. Please read my response to her.

JL

I am at a total loss of words right now. I will try and write some tomorrow. I just can't right now!!
Cruise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Cruise,

Please think about these things. And Todd, you do the same. If Cruise "kissed your butt" everyday, could you take good care of her? Would you take good care of her?

Please think about these things.

God Bless,

JL

The above quotation is from the thread that spawned this thread.

Todd, Cruise, JL, Orchid, BK, et. al. - I am asking myself why I am trying "one more time" to reach out to Todd and Cruise and the seeming "neverending story" of their dysfunctional marriage and dysfunctional recovery (yes, JL, that IS a DJ on my part based solely upon the "around and around and around" rehashing of the same points, with no positive movement forward). The answer to my own question is that I care about them as fellow believers who are still working at HOW to recover their marriage.

I GET that they both "WANT" a recovered marriage, but they both continue to put their own "feelings" (yes Todd, I understand you THINK you are being calm, cool, and rational instead of emotional on this) ahead of their obligation FIRST and FOREMOST to God. The "why should they put God first regardless of their feelings" is simple, they both profess to be Christians, yet continue to act as if they, individually, are "in control" of their lives and actions.

They deny, through their actions, that God is their Sovereign and that God has the right to command them regardless of what they might feel. They continue to flounder around in the secular realm and refuse to surrender their feelings and actions toward each other TO God and to live according to God's commands.

Until both of them choose, as Christ showed the way, to surrender their "will" to God's will, they will be fighting not only each other, but refusing God's help in healing their marriage.

All the rest is simply discussing over and over the SYMPTOMS, not the cause, of the problems and the way that a Christian deals with problems. They form "excuses" for NOT doing what God has commanded. They become acceptance of the lie that "God didn't really mean what he said."

What seems to missing in addition to surrender and obedience to God is Agape Love. Each of them continues to wrapped up in "me" and unwilling to "let go" and focus on "thee." They allow, though Todd will likely disagree with this as it pertains to him, their emotions to justify their actions. They may call it "logic," but in the end, it is disobedience of the "core beliefs" of a Christian who HAS accepted Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior.

So my question to the two of them remains unchanged from previous posts, when are the two of you, Todd and Cruise, going to surrender your wants, desires, wills, to God and simply follow His commands it humble obedience no matter what you may be feeling or "thinking?"

You are both Christians. Isn't it about time you both started looking at THAT "core belief" and let the "3rd Person in your marriage" actually BE the head of your marriage?

The "context" is the Scripture and surrender to God.

"I will do this regardless..."

I hope this shows the distiction.

So do I hope.


Those of us that do have a real struggle with this violation we have chosen."

The "struggle" really involves a Christian being willfully disobedient to God's commands. The rest of the seeming struggle is just trying to address the symptoms caused by the underlying real problem.

Hi All-

Not much to say this morning. Other than I DID NOT write this with the intent to bash todd in anyway. Obviously that is how he took it and I am truly sorry. My intent was to get some feedback from those out there with more wisdom than the both of us. Thank you JL for your words, they are many to ponder.

Please pray for us. FH- I know that God is the answer, maybe I haven't surrendered completely and maybe that is why we are still here.

I don't want to be todd's enemy anymore, I want to be his wife.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Cruise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />