I felt guilty for not defending justjilly in this thread below.
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I think this is one of the cases that star*fish was referring to and JustJilly was SHAMED and driven from the board. (Why stay when so many are telling her that her marriage is a sham...they have children so it seems to me
worth rescueing.)

I felt she got very little help, mostly condemnation because she married the man she had an affair with and now has children with him and told her marriage was NOT legitimate. This is her life NOW, she needed help NOW! (Some posters were kind and helpful to justjilly)

She loves her husband, she has been married to him longer than her first abusive husband with whom she had no children. (She is no longer an OW since she is legally married.) She has been faithful to her husband for the entire 10 years of their marriage.

When she posted her email address, I wrote to apologize for
never posting on her thread and encouraging her.

I shared her reply with 2BNormal.

2B emailed me Mr. Wondering's venomous reply (from 'wantout's thread' and I feel I have to respond and share Just Jilly's return email.

Mr. Wondering's post:
"That being said, JustJilly is a recent example of a wayward spouse in a 10 year old affair marriage upon whom I personally restrained myself from posting to. I couldn’t post one day to someone telling them/promising them their wayward spouse’s relationship with OP WOULD disintegrate and then post to Justjilly the next day about how to save her affair marriage. I think Justjilly’s exit posts were right on…she really had no place here. Others could post what they want, I would never think to question their posts to her, I personally didn’t want to post to someone that was so obviously and permanently “trapped” in shame. She is an example of one ”trapped in shame”…she can’t go back to her God-given husband, she needs to end her adulterous affair marriage and really can’t marry again (except to her original husband) pursuant to my religious beliefs. I quickly realized I had absolutely nothing in the form of support for her so I choose to abstain. My personal decision. However, Justjilly is the exception to the rule….most waywards that appear on MB are not so “trapped” in shame because the options and expectations are not that onerous…END YOUR AFFAIR."

What help do you think she wanted vs what she needed?

L.

IWRA - I am sure there is SOME point to this? It seems pretty incoherent to me. You posted what MrWondering openly posted on the iwantout thread. What is th epurpose of posting it here?

There are many people on these boards who would take the view that an affair is an affair is an affair. An affair is always going to end. An affair is never legitimised by time, marriage or the production of children.

JustJilly did have no place here. She needs to consider her children not the salvation of her "affair marriage" WHat's to save?

We tell BS's here all the time an affair is a fantasy and an affair will eventually end. Proof positive in this case. A cheater cheats. What's to save here?

And what is your motivation for posting this?

I deleted justjilly's email message.
For any of you that didn't get to read it,
she had a heartfelt message of her life and
love for her husband and family.

I will send it to Mr. Wondering so he understands
why this thread.

Maybe she will post it herself when she gets
back from vacation.

She has worth and value and deserves to post here
on MB as much as anybody.

IWRA, I really question putting someone's private e-mail personally to you on the board for everybody to read. You are seriously betraying JustJilly's trust by putting that e-mail here.

It's an unwritten rule not to and I hope you will delete it.

There is NOTHING you can do to change people's opinions on how they think and what they want to post.

Concentrate on helping those you can - it will save you a lot of burst blood vessels. I'm finally learning to do this (with mixed results LOL).

Thanks Kiwi for telling me this.

I guess I was thinking since it was anonymous that
it would be ok to post her note.

And it scares me to defend anyone or get involved in a thread because I don't want to be the target of any attacks. I rarely log on but I felt led to post this time.

Did you get a chance to read justjilly's note?
Do you think she has as much right to be here as anyone?

I don't know about any of you, but my own sister married
her OM, 30 years ago...(Her first husband was verbally and
physically abusive.) My brother in law did the same thing after being married to his first wife for 30 years. (He has been married the second time for 12 years.)

Divorce sadly happens.

Do other families have divorce and re-marriage in them?

How can we say these marriages are not legitimate?
Well, I don't say that....I think they are legal and legitimate.

Divorce and re-marriage is totally different to marrying an OM or OW

Big K, can I have your email address?
Thanks. (Did you get a chance to read justjilly's
email before I deleted it?)

Don't you imagine the majority of re-marriages are
with an OM or OW? I don't know the statistics, but I
would guess quite a few. Isn't infidelity and wanting
to ride off into the sunset with OP generally the reason
for divorce? (Another guess.)

I didn't see the email before you deleted it.

My email address is in my signature but it is bigkahuna_mb@yahoo.com.au

I imagine many re-marriages are affair marriages, maybe even 50% or more of remarriages. Doesn't make them right though.

IWRA,

JJ's responses were pretty much based on her account. She stated her M was A based. The fact that it is going south now, has taken no one by surprise.

If she wants to save anything, she has t/d the work. The extra guilt comes from where the M stemmed from....the A.

See how it follows and comes around? That means that Jilly's A is going to have an effect on her recovery personal and M wise.

I believe that was being pointed out to her and that may have scared her off. But if she is really interested in recovery, she has to face that fact and work with it.

Does she have a place here? Of course....well if she truly is willing to do what it takes to recover. Her's may have a few extra steps because she and her OM skipped those vital steps at the beginning by having the A.

So I don't see a backlash here. I see someone who wants to be a few steps farther down the road than she currently is.

That's no reason to leave....that's all the more reason to stay and tough it out.

JMHO,
L.

What exactly is the statute of limitations on an affair?

I mean honestly, is there some magic day that the original betrayal gets erased, the infidels are granted the grace of the earth, and we all just go on our merry way??? I just don't see that...It makes no sense...Just because the affair partners TRY to legitimize their AFFAIR with marriage, does NOT make the AFFAIR less of an AFFAIR...The relationship remains tainted and illegitimate...

And yes, IRWA, we received your email containing JustJilly's email explaining her circumstances...I have been a WW...I recognize the same tired old rationalizations and justifications that all WSes use...Yep, she's unique, just like the rest of us...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Here's the deal, there are NO mitigating circumstances that justify an affair...NONE...

Mrs. W

Are you guys suggesting that a second marriage to an OP is null and void? That seems strange to me. The thought may be distasteful to BS's, but reality is that it happens quite often. I hate to think that MB principles only work for some marriages not others.

This is a great opportunity to explore MB principles and our own fears. I think it's a challenge, and discussion on the topic could be illuminating.

Could an affair marriage ever be redeemed? If so, what would it take?

Just because they are legally married does not change her status as an OW. They will always be affair partners, and the marriage will never be legitimate.

The vast majority of divorces are the result of an affair, but in many cases there is no remarriage, and many of the remarriages that do result end in divorce. It is common for the affair to fall apart after the divorce and then at some later date for the WS to marry someone else. And what about the other 50% of the people in the original marriage? Many of the BS's eventually remarry - I realize some of them have affairs (like my H's OW), but many manage to remarry unattached people.

Why will their marriage never be legitimate?

Quote from MrW.

WHY does she need to end her marriage? Because it started out as an affair? Yes, she was the OW and married her affair partner. But, do we condemn her for the rest of her life because she did this?

This woman was seeking help for where she is in her life NOW! I agree there are consequences to what she has done in the past, but how do you help her NOW? Condemn her? I just don't see how that is helping her?

I agree she was the OW and wrongly entered this marriage...BUT...She divorced her first H. Doesn't that mean legally she is not married to this first H? She is now LEGALLY married to her 2nd H. How does that make her still in an AFFAIR? How does that make her marriage illegitimate?

I think what Nellie2 and Mrs Wonderings really meant when they said the above (please correct me if I’m wrong Nellie and Mrs Wonderings) is that such a marriage is not morally legitimate or legitimate in the eyes of God, but this is not necessarily the case… And belief it or not, there can come a day where the infidels can be granted the grace and blessing of God on their M...and that is the day when JustJilly and/or her current H become newly converted or new born Christians and receive the forgiveness of God for their past sins...

You see, I don’t know if JustJilly became a newly-converted or new-born Christian after she divorced her previous H and married the second one (only she and God will know) but whether that was the case or not, I think the following passages (in bold) will address some of the issues raised in this thread (specifically by Nellie and MrsWonderings) and that such a marriage can become legitimate in the eyes of God.

Please note that the following passages was copied and pasted from this thread I posted on Biblical Divorce and Remarriage. Unfortunately the original link on the internet (where I’ve gotten the above info on Biblical Divorce and Remarriage from), doesn’t exist anymore. Here it is:

Sometimes it is said that a newly-converted Christian or a re-converted Christian should divorce their current spouse if they ever committed adultery or fornication before they married, presumably either to live the remainder of their life as a single person or to remarry a former spouse they divorced without just biblical cause.

However, even if someone committed terrible sins, including adultery, sometime in their past, they always get a new start in life through the forgiving power and grace of Christ Jesus.

That is what Christian salvation is all about.

Therefore, once you have repented of your sins, and have accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, you should begin to live your life everyday in compliance with His commandments to the very best of your ability.

On the practical level, this means that whatever your life circumstances are at the moment of your conversion or reconversion to Christ Jesus, that is the point from which you begin to conform your activities and thoughts and lifestyle to His commandments.

That is why the apostle Paul wrote the following passage of scripture:

[color:"blue"] I Corinthians 7:20
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. (KJV) [/color]

Accordingly, in matters pertaining to adultery and divorce and remarriage, whatever your marital status happens to be at the time of your conversion or reconversion to Christ Jesus, that marks the point in time during which you begin to conform your thoughts and actions to His commandments.

So, if you are single when you begin a new life in Christ, you are free to marry or remarry if you wish to do so.

Nor is it scripturally necessary for you to remarry a former spouse if you have ever been divorced, regardless of the reason for the divorce.

There is no biblical reason to atone for past mistakes such as adultery or unjustified divorces; atonement was accomplished by the substitutionary, propitiatory finished-work of the Lord Jesus Christ Who paid the penalty of sin for all by His death on the cross at Calvary.

Consequently, I do not believe God demands that divorced people who have been forgiven for their sin of adultery must remain single and alone for the rest of their natural lives.

Instead, if they truly have repented of their past failures, and are determined and resolute about not committing that type of sin again, I believe they are free to remarry as forgiven sinners under the grace of God.

However, as the book of Romans argues, God's grace and forgiveness is not something we should take advantage of just because God always stands ready to forgive us if we sincerely repent of our moral failures.

Rather, we always should strive to do our very best not to repeat any sinful mistake; most certainly we should not act in a cavalier manner, committing the same sin over and over again, knowing full-well we can always take refuge in God's willingness to forgive us.

Therefore, even though we live under God's grace and forgiveness, we do have a moral obligation to do our very best not to commit the same horrendous sin again.

In like manner, if you are remarried at the time of your conversion or reconversion, then you should remain married to your current spouse. You should not divorce your current spouse to remarry a former spouse in a misguided attempt to achieve atonement or "restitution."

That is one of the reasons why the apostle Paul also said we should put our past sins and mistakes behind us, and press on toward the future in Christ Jesus:

[color:"blue"] Philippians 3:13-14
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (KJV) [/color]

Moreover, here is what Jesus had to say when confronted with a person who had just committed adultery:

[color:"blue"] John 8:3-11
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. (KJV)[/color]

Thus, whenever a person sincerely accepts Christ Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour, they become a new creature in Christ with a clean moral slate (since they have been forgiven).

But after that person has been forgiven, God expects them to make a "good-faith" effort, through the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit, to obey the commandments of Jesus to the best of their ability. That is why Jesus said: "Go, and sin no more."

So, it is clear that a new Christian or a reconverted Christian should remain married to their current spouse if they are married at the time of their conversion or reconversion, but that they are free to marry or remarry if they are single at the moment of their conversion or reconversion.

Moreover, all of this is true regardless of any previous moral failures.

Suzet,
Great post. Thank you for taking the time to gather the information.

It's true that we don't know if JustJilly became a Christian before or after she divorced. But,whether it was before or after, God's grace and forgiveness still stand if she repented of her ways and chose to not engage in this sin again.

{edited to add:}
Divorcing yet AGAIN is not the solution to Jill's situation. God HATES divorce and for her to divorce her current husband would be wrong. Sure, she entered the marriage wrongly...but God is forgiving. If she repented of her adultery to the Lord and turned from her ways, she would be forgiven. She is NOT in SIN with her current husband no matter how wrongly it started out. What about GRACE? God's GRACE is sufficient.

Exactly...

I 100% agree... Everything is in line with what I've posted on my previous post in this thread.

Thanks '090886', 2BNormal and Suzet.
When JustJilly returns from her vacation and checks MB,
she will appreciate your encouraging words.

JustJilly is doing the best she can; trying to be a good wife and mother to her little children. (She had no children from her first abusive marriage.)

I am always reminded that if we want God to hear and answer our prayers, we cannot have any resentment or unforgiveness in our own hearts.

I am glad I serve a God that doesn't pick and choose which
sins HE will forgive; that when we repent of our sins,
He forgives and washes us white as snow...buries our sins
in the deepest sea.

(By the way, we/me sin every day, even if it is the sin of omission; not doing something we should do, like a kind deed for someone.)

Okay....I want to say something....and this is a fact. Dr. Harley does NOT withdraw his services or help from people who's marriage began as an affair and are legally married now. I know more than one couple in that situation who have counseled with him.

I think that we have to ask some hard questions about how to bring legitmacy to a relationship that began as a tragedy to another family and whether there is anything that can be done to help people coming here in that situation. If the answer is "no" then perhaps there should be some sort of warning so that people don't wander in here unknowingly.

I know one couple who each when back to their respective betrayed spouses and apologized, talked about the cruelty of their choices, and rebuilt their friendship with their exes, and I think that's probably something that might be a good beginning. It seemed to make a real difference for everyone involved in this sitch...included the betrayed partners.

Some folks will be too sensitive about that subject to help at all. That's certainly understandable.

I think Mr.W did a good thing....when he saw that the situation was one he couldn't help with....he didn't. I find that admirable and I don't like to see posts directed at individuals....that's using shame tactics.

Maybe it's true that there's just too much pain on this board for folks who are in this situation to post here....I don't know. Dr. H is one person who is not being wracked with pain so perhaps can be more objective...that may not be possible here.