Orchid,

Bravo!

I have not ever cheated on him and
I never will

how very noble .... pass me a bucket ....
Help this poor woman if you want, but your assertion that affair marriages are as valid as non affair mariages is falling on stony ground with me.

The dog returns to its own vomit, the pig that was washed returns to roll in the mud. The unrepentant cheater cheats again.

She can read this when she gets back. The one thing I did learn was adultery is the one sin which requires the forgiveness of the BS. Not just God's. This was an eye opener for me. Not that I felt righteous....no just the opposite. It made me see that the importance of M is a shared responsibility. God has placed the recovery of this sin on not just his ability to forgive but that same ability to forgive or not on the shoulders of the one who was betrayed.

What does this mean? This means forgiveness for an act of adultery isn't soley for the WS to grant to themselves after the D or A. It is work that is required for a WS to get from the BS. It is a rebuilding of trust.

If that trust can't be rebuilt, how good of a 'man or woman' can that person be? Do we want to pretend that person is good when in reality there is no real trust?

Trust becomes a word that takes on greater meaning than love....for the moment. Earn the trust back and the love will follow.

So if Jilly's H is now the WS, what is he willing to do. Remember in their R this is at the very least the 2nd time trust was broken.

Then there's the broken trust factor from Jilly's own previous A to be addressed. Seems like Jilly and her present H would benefit with a few sessions with Steve H. (aka: the Marshall). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Absolutely.....

Bob...how does this woman repent? I mean this sincerely as I think you know I respect your opinion and insight immensely. Here original posts have all been deleted so I can't really get the jest of what happened here...I jumped in due to my perception of how some were acting here....

This is not an issue that will be resolved peacably to everyones liking ever.

It is a polarizing issue, it exposes your beliefs it does not defend or explain them.

Personally I believe that an affair is always an affair regardless of the passage of time or sad creation of children in such a sick and perverted environment.

Several people have brought up biblical examples of supposed forgiveness and "oh help yourself" affair marriages ..I disagree with the conclusions of the two that I have read.

In the first we have the ever famous example of the woman brought before Christ caught in the act.

What was the issue?

Did God change his mind? Was she special and somehow different from all of the other people guilty of adultery who WERE executed because of their crimes?

I think not at all. My understanding is that the question was a trap..and the crux of the trap was..where was the MAN who was ALSO guilty?

Jesus was not blind to their agenda..I believe had both parties been lawfully brought forth..both would have been executed.

The second example of David and Bathsheba..well I for one have always questioned the "affair" element of this story.

Sounds more like rape to me.

One important element to consider was the fact that Bathshebas husband was DEAD..had he been living I believe that there was no way the marriage would have been considerred legit ever..as it was the price of admission despite the fact that Bathsheba was now free of her marriage vows was the DEATH of their OC. Any takers?

I have read extensively on the subject of remarriage as well..having quite a lot to consider during my own Hs WS period. My conclusion was that the BS may remarry..but the WS may not ever.

The only option for a WS is to remain single or return to the original marriage while the former spouse is living.

Are there "experts" who disagree with this? Certainly. I think they are wrong. That's my position.

I have also read and listenned to "experts" who previously had divorced [legally]..became Christian..and were convinced/convicted that their "marriages" were sinfull and adulterous in the eyes of God as their first spouse was still living.

They left those marriages to return to the first whether they had children or feelings for the former/present spouse or not.

Those are the people that I would align myself with..that's where I stand on the issue.

It's not NICE and it isn't KIND or TOLERANT and it's going to make a lot of peole very ANGRY.

If this board becomes a place that supports affairees I will take my leave of it voluntarily and eagerly.

Marriage is sacred. While it should apply to all M's, not all believe in the source of the creator of M. That's a religious debate not meant for here.

Ok, separate from the religion..... this is primarily where one can come to learn how to survive an A, improve one's self and improve or recover one's M. That's it.

We are NOT 'experts' we are people who have dealt with this issue from various POVs. Sometimes as the Bs, Xws, observer, family member, friend, co-worker, child, relative, etc.

Our thoughts and POVs can be shared. Sometimes we will NOT like what we hear. Not all info here is beneficial for each scenario.

It is the attitude of the poster and those posting to them that is critical. I don't like to waste my time posting to someone with a bad attitude or thinks they know it all. So I try not to. If I am wrong and someone points it out so I can understand, I accept, make changes as needed and move on.

We are not absolving or condemning anyone here. Just sharing info.

Our own personal beliefs can be shared but how it is taken is up to the reader themselves.

We have had these discussions before. An OP who is now married to the WS, dissolved their former M still has to reconcile with their former mate and God (as it is written). Not my place to tell them what to do, just make suggestions. If they don't like it, they will leave and I can go help the next person.

Are we harboring an OP or WS here? Maybe we have for a while. But when that person leaves, is it as a Ws or OP? In most cases, they are the ones that change. Those that leave as an OP or WS is because they know they can't be here as such and must post in environments where such OP/WS' are welcomed as such.

Those who used t/b OPs and WS' but have changed share a deeper perspective that can help us all but note that they have changed.

A famous verse reads in a part, '......and that is what some of you were but you have been washed clean....' So the changes one makes in their life can help them move forward but they must must change their course of life.

Btw, in the account of David and Bathsheba.....King David commited murder to get Bathsheba. He had her husband killed under the disguise of heing in the line of fire. David paid the price for that betrayal in the worst way. His baby son died. Read the account again. There are always consquences to an affair. Always.

I do not sanction an affair. Never have and never will. I have spoken to those who have been OPs and Ws' in affairs, but AFTER they have left that way of life. The few I have had the unfortunate chance to meet while they were OPs and Ws' showed me why it is best for me to consider them bad association. That is why I like plan B. It allows me to keep those at a safe distance away from myself and my family.

As for Jilly's sitch......she is going to have to let us know which one she is. It looks like she is still coming out of her 1st fog.

The principals for recovering from any A is the same, so in reality Jilly doesn't have to post here to get support. She can read the books like anyone else. She will get the info. she needs.

It is best though in her case, to work with coaches like Steve or Jennifer for some direct one-on-one.

JMHO again.
L.

They left those marriages to return to the first whether they had children or feelings for the former/present spouse or not.

Noodle, check out Deuteronomy 24:1...this activity is expressly forbidden for God's people even if the second spouse is dead. Not an option for believers anyway. KB

Mr. W. - I just saw this thread and began reading. I have only read up to your post so far, so I'll withhold any potential direct comments until after I finish the entire thread.

All I will say so far is the following:

1. JustJilly has every right to be here if she wants to be, regardless of what anyone else thinks or says.

2. I don't know if she is a Christian or if her husband is a Christian, so if she is not, she is not "bound" by God's commands. If he is not, God's commandments will not likely hold much "water" with him. Only those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior are bound to "obedience to God's commands."

3. There is, to my knowledge, only one unforgiveable sin, and it's not adultery or marriage to an affair partner, or any other sin.

4. There ARE consequences to all sins, regardless of whether or not they are forgiven. Sometimes we have to live the rest of our lives with those consequences, but we can try to live in accordance to God's commands "from this day forward."

right-o

Pep

Mrs. W - a couple of thoughts for you to mull over;

1. Hate the sin, love the sinner

2. All your sins are as white as snow, are put as far as the East is from the West, for those who have accepted Jesus Christ. It is so NOT because of anything we have done or for our sake, it is so for Christ's sake because He took upon himself ALL of our sins and paid the penalty for them. He "paid the check" if you will, so we don't have to.

No one is saying that sin (wrong) becomes sinless (right). What IS being said is that FORGIVENESS as God has forgiven us is found in Christ. The robes that were as scarlet are then white as snow. Couple forgiveness with LOVE, and for most "smaller sins," "love covers over a multitude of sins." For the rest, they are forgiven but may still have consequences that one must deal with (as in the previously mentioned example of David's first son with Bathsheba).

3. In this particular instance, there are small children now involved in the foolishness of "adults." Their needs are every bit as important as the needs of the father and mother and must be "counted" in the advice given and the actions that the husband and wife should take.

Are you serious???? Wow-The Wonderings did me dirty...

Low - this is NOT what the Scripture says. If someone, or some church, is teaching this position they are woefully ignorant of what Jesus actually said to the Pharisees. The reality is that divorce is allowed by God for the faithful spouse so that, should they later marry again, they will not, themselves, be committing adultery by getting married.

Also, I have been confused a bit here because you keep referring to a "JP." Is "JP" the same as JustJilly, the subject of the thread?

FH - Interesting. I presume you would agree that Repentance consists of more that just saying sorry. How does an adulteror repent? How do you see they should "turn from their sin"

CS - I'm confused. Is the Unconditional Cease Fire over? You should have sent me the memo.

FH.

Thanks for your input thus far. I am reading

BTW, I think "JP" is justpeachy at times as she got involved in posting to JJ and is the example of the BS on the board with a xWH married to an OW....other times maybe a justjilly typo.

Mr. W

Yes, there are consequences to sin... sometimes very far-reaching ones that last for years and years. Sometimes your consequences rub off on innocent others, like children. So unfair.

Much of what has been written on this thread is opinion, based on experience, the Bible, and feelings. But the truth we can't escape from is in the words above -- no matter what we do to try and make things right (after any sinful act)... the consequences remain.

Sincerity aside (and thanks for that, weaver)... it's something I have had to learn in spades.

Orchid - huh? Since when is adultery the "only" that a sinned-against person can forgive?

If a sinner repents of their sin (first and foremost against God) and is a believer or becomes a believer, God is faithful and just and WILL forgive their sin. Furthermore, as Jesus told Peter, "If a brother sins against you seven times in a day and repents, you are to forgive him." The rule is "seventy times seven times" (or no limit) if it is needed.

What the Scripture says is that forgiveness for repentant person is required, but the in the case of adultery, the faithful spouse is not "required" to remain in the marriage. They can both forgive and divorce without themselves committing a sin.

Marriage IS a shared responsibility that is founded in love and forgiveness, because not one of is "perfect." So I agree with you on the responsibility statement.

yeppers!

Pep

BK, you "presume" correctly.


"How does an adulteror repent?"

Through heartfelt sorrow over the sin, confession of that sin, asking God for His forgiveness because of their acceptance of Jesus Christ and what HE did, and "leaving their life of sin," (turning 180 degrees from that sin and following God in humble obedience to His commands).

Once that is done, then the next "order of business" would be to apologize to those sinned against and asking them for their forgiveness too.

The area of marriage following divorce, especially for the unfaithful spouse, or unfaithful spouses in the event that both were having an affair, is especially "tricky." Yet the fundamental principle that must guide us is that God forgives repentant sinners and ONLY blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is "unforgiveable." I would surmise that the "forgiven and saved" thief that was crucified with Jesus had had a lifetime of sins and was sincerely repentant, not just looking to say "I'm sorry" to get a free "Get out of He11" card. Jesus KNOWS the heart, so insincere repentance will be know to him also.

And manifest in many forms.