OK I am NOT in anyway shape or form saying ADULTERY is the "unforgivable sin" What I AM saying is that repentence necitates turning from that sin EVEN if the sin has been legitimised (in the sinners eyes) by divorce, re-marriage, time and production of children. Anything less is not repentace.

Okay, BK, but I think you need to explain what you are trying to say a little better. What you seem to saying in the above quote is that you are equating repenting of the sin of adultery and turning away from those sorts of sinful "choice" with being "justification" to divorce the person they are now married to.

IF that is what you are saying, then I would have to respond with "it depends." If JustJilly, for example is now the "victim" of her current husband committing adultery against her in this marriage, then she has the right to divorce him if she so chooses. However, she does not have the right to divorce simply because she repented of her previous sin of adultery. At least not if she is now a believer. Marriage, ALL marriage, is instituted by God. We are the ones who tend to "corrupt" God's purpose for marriage. That is to be a "helpmeet" to each other and to build a marriage that brings honor and glory to God.

WE tend to have a "problem" with God using even a marriage that "began under wrong circumstances," but that is not our choice. That is God's choice to use whomever he wishes.

It is the consequences of the sins that remain that are, in many cases, what we have to "live with," sometimes for the remainder of our lives. God granted the original faithful spouses the right to divorce and to find another spouse should that happen.

But God is NOT in the business of tossing out sinners who repent and follow Him. He makes "lemonade out of lemons." In short, he puts the broken, flawed, pot back on the Potter's Wheel and forms a NEW marriage that will bring him honor and be suitable for his use. Some "pots" will be for "common use" and some will be for very special use. But it is God who determines which is which and uses each according to His will. Sincere repentance will be followed by "evidence" of a changed life and humble obedience to God.

To think otherwise would seem to say that "eternal security" is a lie and that a saved person CAN lose their salvation. I don't believe Scripture teaches that, though there are many of "Arminian" beliefs who might ascribe to the idea that you could lose your faith. Jesus "paid the price" for all of a believer's sins, and that includes being married in adultery from a previous spouse. The caution is to NOT sin with impunity. Therefore ONE remarriage seems "tolerable" as they seek to conform that marriage to one of following God, but reckless divorce and remarriage (ala the prevalent trend in Hollywood) would seem to indicate that one does NOT have a saving faith in Jesus.

For those who divored, sinned, etc. BEFORE becoming a Christian, it is well to remember that NONE of their prior sins are "held against them" anymore. Consequences may remain, but not their "standing before the Lord."

I am reminded of a few passages of Scripture that might bear on this subject.

"Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not."

"It would be better for some to have a millstone tied around their neck and be tossed into the sea rather than to cause one of these little ones to stumble."

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

The parable of the unmerciful servant.

"Come unto me all ye who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

"Go and leave your life of sin." (and start following Jesus)

I guess that is exactly what I am saying.


Well I don't disagree that if she became a believer after her marriage to her affair partner that there is forgiveness and that it is covered by Jesus's blood. However, if she was a believer when she had the affair and married, I don't believe it is a marriage. It's just a LTA. And I don't believe such a union is legitimised by saying some vows, time and producing children. It is what it is. A sleazy adulterous affair.

I do not believe under those circumstances repentance is demonstrated if she remains in her affair marriage. She has not repented and turned away.


I have no clue what you are trying to get at here. I don't believe God sees an affair marriage as a marriage.


Agree very much.


Agree again. A broken and contrite heart he will not despise.


Disagree obviously.


I must be an Armininan then. I do believe it is possible to lose your salvation. Hebrews 6:4-6 springs to mind.

HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


agreed


Disagree with the first bit, agree with the last.


Totally agree. This is one of 2 areas where I agree divorce and re-marriage is permissable for a Christian with the blessing of God. (the other being adultery)

FH - to be honest, the only thing in this thread that has in the slightest changed my mind is the situation with David and Bathsheeba - but even then Bathsheeba's husband was dead albeit murdered by David. David paid a huge price for that - the death of the son, lost the kingdom, his son slept with all his wives openly. But God did bless the marriage as Solomon, a son born of the union became King.

It really disturbs me the hypocracy of this board where we tell a poor BS that the affair will end, affairs always end, affairs are about fantasy, and then on the other hand we want to console a wistress when her cheating husband cheats on her with someone else.

Just what is the statute of limitations here FH????

The bible talks about a narrow path that leads to salvation FH.

I struggle greatly with the thought of adulterors marrying, time passing and children being produced. This is in fact precisely the situation with my wife's affair partner. My brother is also in an affair marriage. FH- God is not pleased.

Just got back from a week at the lake... and one of the first threads I found was this one... WOW!

I, for one, can find a lot of interest in any type of debate, in particular a religious debate. But what is being accomplished here in respect to the original poster, JJ?

This is a Christian based forum, but not all who come here are Christian and it is not the responsibility of any of us to be the judge of others on here... only one can do that.

I would assume that we all would agree that it is wrong, and sinful for a young woman to become pregnant prior to marriage, yet in my society, that young woman is still given a huge amount of support following her "mistake". At one time, that person would be banished from her family and probably ostracized from different religions... I believe much has changed. As one put it on here (I skimmed through very quickly)... Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Now, I respect Mr. and Mrs. W's principles and I understand what they are saying. If you are going to give hope and help, then a line must be drawn. This is similar to the church I grew up in... one that gives a lot of help to alchoholics. Those who choose to become "followers" in the church choose not to drink alchohol. This is not because drinking is wrong... it is because a line has been drawn. You can't help an alchoholic while holding a bottle yourself. To drink would contradict the message for those they are trying to help.

I don't believe the W's has judged JJ to necessarily be a sinner or not (unless I missed that in my skimming), but they have drawn their own line of principles and stated it is wrong for them to help this person because of their beliefs and because of how it contradicts the message they are giving to those they try to help.

Although I personally would choose to help JJ, I greatly respect the position taken.

(Deleted inapproriate and lame attempt at humour over a serious, sensitive issue).

Shaden

Shaden,

Actually there is one thing that you said that is wrong.
Harley specifically set this site up to NOT be a Christian based forum. His work and views often reflect his Christian faith, but he did not want it limited to Christians. If you read his work, it is very neutral about religion and that was done intentionally.

JL

Reading the messages of you few self-righteous posters here brings a feeling of sickness to the pit of my stomach.

I am the child of divorced parents, embarking on my own marriage which my fiancé and I have built on solid foundations, learning from the mistakes of our parents and seeking the guidance and advice of those who have maintained successful marriages.

To think that anyone comes to this site in order to seek said guidance and advice is unfathomable. Reading the words that you say to one another, and the bitter spirits you repeatedly slip each other under the guise of the sweet wine of salvation, it is not difficult to see why your marriages have struggled. If you cannot treat your fellow anonymous, yet obviously suffering, human beings with respect, how can you offer any form of constant support and unconditional love to the one person who has committed to see you at not only your best, but your worst?

I began reading this board in earnest when a friend pointed me in the direction of the CinSug threads. At first, I could understand your frustration at her seeming deceptiveness, but as I watched the thread stretch and flex to largely consist of responses that sought to hurt her deeply, I quickly became appalled. And while I do question her true intentions, despite her repeated cries that she hides nothing, I would never stoop to treat her as you have.

The same goes for the case with JustJilly. While you sit on your thrones of judgment, she is hurting. I do not condone affairs in any situation, and believe divorce should be an extreme last measure (i.e. in cases of abuse), but JustJilly did not come here to ask you to judge her past. She came seeking advice from whom she saw as a group of supportive and wise individuals. What she got is what you seem to serve much more readily—relentless verdicts and sentences.

“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” I am not without sin, as none of us are, but I pray that you all find the strength to show a little kindness to even the worst sinner among us.

There is no need to worry yourself with responding, as I will not post here again…the most vocal of you have already shown me through your words to each other that you consider free thought and genuine Christian forgiveness an abomination to the intent of this board.

ora, self righteousness is the exception rather than the rule. The self righteous ones are just quite vocal. There are wonderful, friendly, nice people here who are only too aware of their own shortcomings.

I just googled your name, not to find you or anything sinister, just to find out what it meant. Pray for Us. I like it.

There is no need to worry yourself with responding, as I will not post here again…the most vocal of you have already shown me through your words to each other that you consider free thought and genuine Christian forgiveness an abomination to the intent of this board.

So you sneak in, drop the 'dirty bomb' of this huge disrespectful judgment to the people of these boards and then beetle off again feeling self righteous ?

Coward.

Personally, I think he has a point.

A lot of people could learn a lot from my very dear H.

I agree Jen...Bob does, indeed, make an excellent point!

Mrs. W

Bob made no point whatsoever.

Yes Jen, if only everyone would not judge any action as right or wrong, listen to all flavours of fog abuse and drivel as if it were god-sent , and correct no-one in the light of our collective experiences this would be a much better place wouldn;t it ?

Actually no. It would be an entirely useless resource.

Without peronal opinion and judgement of evidence these boards are limp psycho-religious "cluck-and-tut" shops IMO. Sure, people won't be offended, but nor will they be helped.

Thousands of marriges, inlcuding mine and Please God YOURS have been helped immeasurably by the opinions AND JUDGMENT of the people on these boards.

I would not have limp acceptance replace this because its more PC.

Now you can all go back to the "other" board and tell each other that Jen's "losing it".

ForeverHers, I’m SO glad you’ve taken the time to read this thread and post your viewpoints. Thanks...

Suzet, if you are interested in where Starfish is a moderator please e-mail me at [email]jenny_l789@yahoo.com.[/email] I think you'd like what you find there.

Bob, my marriage was helped by thoughtful, wise and wonderful posters. JL, Star, Pep, Plank, WAT, 2long, Weaver, FF, Jelly, Robby, Celly, Lisa, Mac, FL2, LINY, Brown, RIF and many, many more including the wonderful new and old friends on Iditoville and off Idiotville that I haven't mentioned. (I feel TERRIBLE because I know I've missed so many people). There are just so many. The 2x4s I received, and there have been many, were couched in love and acceptance and friendship. The way they were given to me made all the difference.

But my marriage was helped most of all by Rob. One out of the box and never able to be replicated or replaced.

Since JustJilly was abused by her first H (which many seemed to miss), I just want to point out that ANY type of severe abuse which threaten a person's physical/mental and/or emotional health can be Biblical grounds for divorce too (depending on the circumstances)…and NOT just adultery (as wrongly thought by many). And this means that if someone divorce their spouse on the grounds of abuse (or other Biblical grounds/permission for divorce), such a person CAN remarry again.

For full information on this, read this post I’ve send on Biblical Divorce and Re-marriage (the same link I’ve posted yesterday).

Underneath is a short extract (the conclusion) from that link, but I advise anyone who read this to read ALL the info on that link:

[color:"blue"] In conclusion, the Bible teaches that divorce is biblically permissible whenever one or more of the following extreme and dangerous conditions apply to your marriage:

(1) Your spouse is guilty of any type of fornication, including adultery;

(2) Your spouse is guilty of life-threatening neglect by not providing reasonable and essential necessities such as food, clothing and shelter;

(3) Your spouse is guilty of long-term and malicious denial of reasonable sexual obligations;

(4) Your spouse is guilty of physical or mental abuse and violence that truly threatens your life or health;

(5) Your non-believing spouse leaves you because of your Christian faith and value-system;

(6) Your believing spouse makes it quite clear that they are separating from you, permanently, despite numerous and honest and sincere attempts on your part at reconciliation and reunion over a very long period of time.
_______________________________________

NOTE: God hates divorce. Nevertheless, sometimes there are extreme circumstances involved in a marital situation for which the Bible permits divorce.[/color]

Just wanted to make this clear…

Therefore, IMO it will be insane and wrong for any person to return to a previously abusive spouse…except if such a person has repented and turned away from his/her evil ways… And I’m not only referring to JustJilly’s case..I’m speaking IN GENERAL.

By the way, who knows JustJilly's exH's abusive behavior was not PART of the reason she has decided to divorce him? And probably her exH's abuse played a major role in her betrayal and vica versa...a vicious cycle where it seems to me that both JustJilly and her exH have behaved equally wrong and damaging in their past M…and that it's not just JustJilly who did wrong... So if anyone wants to cast stones, those stones need to be directed to her exH as well…<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Suzet, almost EVERY WS says they were in an abusive or neglectful marriage when justifying their affair.

Even if it WAS an abusive marriage you think an affair with a married man is a justified or helpful response ?

Do you think an affair is a valid response to a marriage problem Suzet ?

NO

NO

Don't try to twist my words or lay words in my mouth Bob... I don't think an A with a married person is a justification/valid reponse/helpful etc. for an abusive M at all. However, abuse in a M (if there was really serious abuse going on) can give some understanding and help to explain (not justify or rationalize) how & why the cheating spouse became vulnerable to an A in the first place...or at least what contributed to make the WS vulnerable...

Maybe this thread could be renamed "the Christian view on M and D" ? I find it interesting to read the opinions of the posters here, but by the standards of most here I'm an atheist, so there is little value for me in Biblical references/rules/sins.

I think the main issue here is
(has been stated by several other posters already)
- should we help a WS who has M'd OP?

Some find this very painful.
I can understand that.
I personally, in my non-Christian opinion, think that someone who is in pain should be helped.
Maybe I cannot do it myself.
Because I'm not qualified, or because it's too painful for me.
But stating that no-one else should help such a person is taking a bit too far for me.