Suzet

Either infidelity is excusable or it isn't. Agreed ?

So all this "We can see why a person would become vulnerable" is all well and good but it either excuses and affair or it doesn't. Agreed ?

In english law there is the concept of contributory negligence. An example in the newspapers today is of a poor girl who went on the town almost naked, got roaring drunk and flirty and ended up raped.

The rapist's defence is that she asked for it with her dress and demeanour.

Verdict : Rape, guilty as charged, but she was guilty of contributory negligence but the sentence was not changed at all. It was rape.

BTW questions never put words in anyones mouth. My words sought to clarify not accuse.

I feel strongly about this. Do we advice gay marriges ? Known abusive marriages ? Underage marriages ? Polamory marriges ? Inter species marriages ? What don't we consider to be a viable platform for helping apply MB to Suzet ?

I start with affair marriages. They have none of the ingredients that MB seeks to restore and are built on the bones of others' pain IMO.

I am sorry JJ is in pain. I know that pain only too well.
But my studies of MB an dexperiences tell me that an affair marriges should not be helped using MB, even if they can ( which I doubt). Such is legitimising the affair that created them. this is my strongly held, but certainly unpopular position.

There is too much focus on niceness not RIGHTNESS on thes eboards lately IMO.

I wish no affair well. None. Even if the infidels married.

But stating that no-one else should help such a person is taking a bit too far for me.

Who is saying no-one should help JJ ?

In the UK she could contact Relate - a non religious organisation that supports 'good relationships' whether Gay, affair based or polyamory.

I am sure there are organisations in her country the same.

Also I am sure many will help her on these boards, even if for no other reason than to p1ss off the reactionaries like me.

brownhair - I would direct you to the parable of the Good Samaritan, as well as several other references I could cite, that clearly give God's viewpoint on a believer helping someone in need and NOT letting "religiosity" get in the way. One does NOT have to agree with the sinner, nor accept sin, in order to help those in distress. Along the way, perhaps the person will see Christian Love "worked out" in action, because they will likely see BOTH the help and the discussion of right and wrong.



THE Judge is God, and the "difference" is between believers and unbelievers. Believers are commanded, as part of accountability, to help each other by "judging" that a given action is clearly sinful and should be repented of. The "reason" is very simple, ALL Christians have chosen to submit their lives and wills to God, to obey God in humble obedience. In essence, it is God's response to Cain's question, "Am I my brother's keeper."

Without God and His "rules," Man is left to whatever might "tickle his fancy." That most often is expressed through things like secular humanism. In short, society grants itself "judgment power" and determines what is "acceptable and unacceptable." What it does is grant to the individual to decide "right and wrong" for themselves. But since each individual can "pick and choose" for themselves, there really is NO "absolute Standard" upon which to compare those various choices. It establishes each individual as their own "sovereign god" to decide for themselves. The closest they get to some sort of "standard" is to "band together" in a society of "agreement" on some principles (i.e. speed limits) for the "common good." The big problem with that is that as society changes, so to the "rules." There is no "absolute." Everything is "relative," and the changing societal mores change "what was" into whatever they choose at present.

BK - just a quick note to let you know that I read your post but am out of time for this morning. Fridays are very busy days for me, so I'll respond later when I have more time to devote to answering your question. Until them, bear with me and I'll thank you for your patience. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Infidelity is never excusable. Agree on this.

No, I don’t agree. It just give understanding…it doesn’t excuse, justify or rationalize anything. There is a difference between an explanation (which give understanding) and an excuse/justification/rationalization. It’s NOT the same thing. Understanding is imperative to recovery and to correct wrongful behavior…excuses/justifications and rationalizations are not…

Bob, my point is that both adultery and abuse is wrong in a M…that’s why God allows divorce for BOTH behaviors… JustJilly and her exH behaved equally wrong in their past M - just as JustJilly’s adultery was no excuse for anything, her exH’s abuse was no excuse for anything either… That’s what everything boils down to… That's the point I was trying to make. Therefore people can't cast stones to JustJilly without casting stones to her exH either...

I am an atheist as well, but I think Bob is right. An affair based marriage is never valid.

Her ex-husband is not posting here, as far as I know, so he can not defend himself/show remorse/deny that there was abuse.

You can not say that "abuse" is necessarily just as wrong as adultery, since it is often defined by the other partner in the marriage. Some people, especially those in an affair, would claim that raising one's voice is abusive. That is hardly in the same category as adultery as a justification for divorce. Attempted murder, however, would be.

IMO it CAN become valid for newly-converted Christians or re-converted Christians for the reasons I’ve laid out in this post yesterday. But since you’re an atheist I can see why you think the opposite and I respect that. Everyone are certainly entitled to their own opinions.

All I can say is I’m just glad & thankful there is a loving & forgiving God and that my (and other’s) eternal salvations are not dependant on some of the posters on these boards… Because if that were the case, we all would certainly go to he!!...

I was only posting from what others has said here e.g. that JustJilly’s 1st H was abusive. Whether that was really the case or not we will never know so in that regard I agree with you… However, I can only form my opinion from what was shared on THIS board e.g. that her H was abusive. And other than JustJilly’s situation, I was posting about abuse in a M (and the Biblical take on it) in GENERAL.


Yes, true, but in the eyes of God both are equally wrong. Sin is sin.

I view abuse that gives Biblical permission for divorce as ANY serious & severe physical, emotional and/or mental abuse which truly threatens the life or emotional/physical and/or mental health of the spouse... Of course "raising one's voice" is not abusive or grounds for divorce in the sense that it truly threatens a person's life or health...that is ridiculous.

However, if a spouse continuously swears, shouts, belittles, runs down, tears down the self-esteem of the spouse etc. to such a degree that it seriously threaten the emotional/mental health and well-being of the victim (even though their is no physical violence involve), it IS grounds for divorce IMO if such an abusive spouse refuses to get help, repent and turn away from his/her wrong ways.

Foreverhers, of course.
I was not specifically addressing you in my post.

Foreverhers, do you mean "God" as is meant in the Bible and in the Christian belief?

The following is an excerpt from the book "Total Forgiveness" by R.T. Kendall. This is such a small part of the book, but I think it is worth reading. I wanted to post this yesterday, but never had time. This is not meant toward any poster, but I thought it was worthwhile to read and appropriate for this thread.

[color:"blue"]Being Merciful

Matt. 5:7
"Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy"

The Bible basically says two things about God:

1. He is merciful
2. He is just.

The heart of the gospel is related to these two characteristics. Because He is merciful, God does not want to punish us; because He is just, He must punish us because we have sinned against Him. So, how can both of these sides of God be satisfied simultaneously?

The answer is at the crux of the gospel message: He sent His Son, Jesus Christ - the God-man - to die on the cross for us. "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isa. 53:6). Because God punished Jesus for our sins, He can now be true to Himself and still be truly merciful to us.

When it comes to being merciful, this is our Lord's command: "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful" (Luke 6:36). Mercy is the opposite of wrath or justice. One difference between grace and mercy is that grace is getting what we don't deserve (favor), and mercy is not getting what we do deserve (justice). So when we show mercy, we are withholding justice from those who have injured us, which is one aspect of godliness.

There is a fringe benefit for those of us who show mercy: we will also be shown mercy (Matt. 5:7). "The merciful man doeth good to his own soul" (Prov. 11.17)[/color]

If JJ had divorced her exH for PROVEN abuse, and started married a man whoi was not married when she started and affair with him, her marriage would now be legitimate IMO. But she didn't and it isn't. IMO.

She had an affair with a married man. That affair is still ongoing. She is complaining abou
t being cheated on in her affair. I do not see how MB can help as it would presume to try to restore a specialness to the unison of marriage that an affair marriage can never have.

We will never agree on this Suzet, but i feel too strongly to shut up like I normally do.

JJs situation is sad, particularly for the kids, but I do not see how they can use marriagebuilding tools when they destroyed two marriges already to get where the are now.

Thanks for sharing this 2BNormal.

So in response to any mortal infraction on this fallen earth DESPITE the blessing of Law and Judges from God himself, you advocate that our only reaction to wrongdoing EVER should be to forgive the offender unequivocally ?

I am SICK of reading " don't judge me" on here as if thats a bad thing !

Peopel judging my posts led to my saving my marrige !! THANK GOD for people judging right from wrong and advising on it I say !

There is ONE just punishment for sin in heaven - death. Eternal seperation from God.

However on Earth God gave us laws , judges and jurisprudence. He taught us to judge wisely, and to gradate trasgressions, apportioning appropriate punishments.

Yet if any on here dare to say aloud that such is wrong, they are slated.

* sigh *

Speaking as someone from the child's perspective of a woman having an affair while married to a truly abusive man...

I know what my father's abuse did to my mother's sense of self worth. And how that eroded her ability to stick to her core values (and it was abuse - I was a witness and sometimes even a recipient as a child). My mother would have married the OM in a heart beat, even though he was also married with three children.

The problem with abused women is they tend to gravitate toward other abusive men, just as JJ did. Just as my mother did.

Please remember that I'm one of the first to come out swinging on these boards when my sense of right and wrong is offended. But if this woman's first husband was verbally or physically abusive, this woman is a walking wounded person, who's married someone who knew she didn't believe she was worthy of a good man.

Women who commit adultery when they have values to the contrary - have you ever asked a compassionate "why would they violate themselves like that?" They can't truly believe they are deserving of TRUE love - but instead are blinded by their own lack of self-esteem to think that any attention is worth going after?

Here's what I know about my mother - myself as a believer - She hasn't experienced the full measure of God's forgiveness - because she's still one of those walking wounded, and she doesn't know the love God wants to give her. I don't know that she will truly be able to receive it while in mortality.

JJ's crisis is one I believe God can use to bring her truly back to her faith - where God can teach her the true worth of her soul - because the greatest of all suffered personally for her. She needs to take her eyes off of her straying husband and find that faith and gift.

Can we all join in helping her to this end?

We ALL deserve death, but Jesus paid the price for us...
"We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isa. 53:6).

Just a quick question;

If JJ was laying on the ground bleeding, would you help her? Would you administer first aid?

Seems to me she is doing just that, lying on the ground of her broken marriage bleeding to death.

As a BS, I am hurt that her marriage was and is part of an A, but also as a BS I still believe she needs our help here, if for no other reason than she is a BS. What about some of the BS turned WS here, surely they are not all only involved with single people, yet we help them.

I would never want even my worst enemy (even FOM) to become a BS. I believe we shold all show some compassion here and try to help JJ with her Plan A, if only to help her become a better person (what Plan A was designed to do right?).

We are and can be better people than this. If her marriage survives OK, if not we can help her to become a better person and show her how to avoid situations like the one she was and is in.

Just my .02

The simple answer to your question, bob is...

YES

We should make an effort to advise folks in all of those. If any particular sitch tweaks you wrong, ignore it and let others who can help.

This site is 'robbed banks central" where we discuss how to rehabilitate robbers , recover from the trauma of robbery and protect our banks from future robbery.

Would you teach an unrepentant bankrobber how to keep his stolen money safe from robbery, as he has recently had some solen by his partner in crime ?

Because , well, its been a long time and he's given some of his stolen money to charity so its legitimately his now...

This is exactly what I see here.

No I am not a charitable enough person to do that to either the unrepentant robber nor the unrepentant WS/OW. I will not help her protect for herself what she stole from another.

You do so if you wish, of course.