ForeverHers, I feel the same about what you have posted here.
I respect you, and the fact that you will always stand up for what you believe.
I had hoped that there would be room for other views or beliefs than the strict Christian one (well, it is in my eyes) that is being upheld by many here (and so they should, if that is their belief).
But it seems there is not, and I do not wish to go into a discussion on such a touchy subject.
See you guys (and girls) in another thread !

Good question Mulan. IT's the one that has been tossed and retossed (is that a word????) throughout this thread.

I still see is as coming down to a tude.... as in attitude. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If the current attitude is still out there as a Ws justifying stuff, even though the Ws married the OP....it's still a no go. Legally it maybe legit but morally and scripturally it ain't. Still we are not judges so when a person comes here as a BS asking for help (maybe she divulged too much info too sonn for some?), those that can give it a listen, do so and help. Those that can't or won't don't.

NO need to get all worked up here. The real work is up to the original poster with the issue. We only offer POVs and our experiences. It is up to each person to take what can help them and move forward.

This is a MB site not a religious site. The POVs of all s/b respected unless they break the requirements we agreed to abide by when signing on here.

For example, in the past some have given very different POVs about their religious beliefs...... have seen reasonable POVs on both sides. Not that I agree with all religious beliefs but I like to look for the good points of reason when it is presented. As a result, I have learned a lot.

No reason why others can't do the same. Take the good, discard the bad. If our opinions differ, that's ok. If someone doesn't like what we say, that's ok. As long as it is respectful. RE: Who knows if what we say now will make sense later?

Look for constants. They help us keep stable. Then flavor with the other POVs and take out what is best for our entire sitch. Even if it requires a change or it hurts. The goal is to improve. Perfection is not attainable now....not yet. So work with what we have and share what we can. Life is waaay to short to be bickering all the time. Those who like to create chaos are throwing away the best years of their lives....but that is their choice. Call them slow learners (by choice), WS, abusers, terrorists or just plain stupid. Whatever....just don't be one of them.

JMHO again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Okay, walk with me a little on this, BK.

The first distinction that must be drawn is whether or not the individuals involved in this scenario are Christians or not. Simplistically put, unbelievers are not “bound” by God’s commands since they are already “reprobate.” Whether they “should” or “should not” obey God’s commands is axiomatic as they are already “lost in their sins” and do not follow God. They can, and often do, substitute societal morals for God’s commands, hence a lot of unbelievers still “believe” in monogamous marriage and the society we live in still limits marriage (except the great State of liberality, Massachusetts) to one man and one woman. Of course, society can also change the rules if enough people want to, hence things like Massachusetts. “Society” then becomes the accepted “judge” of right and wrong, but what IS right and wrong is a moving target that has no “absolutes.”

Christians, on the other hand, are no longer their own. They were “bought and paid for” by Jesus Christ and are now His “bride.” In accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, they are also accepting him as their LORD, their Sovereign, who has the right to command and they retain only the obligation to obey. Since Christians are also NOT “glorified” yet and still have to contend with a “sin-nature” and continue to live in a fallen world, sin and temptation (to say nothing of the active role of Satan in attacking Christians), Christian will still fall into sin of various types and degrees from time to time. They CAN, as evidenced by a choice to “give into” temptation and to commit adultery, be “blinded” by sin for a while. But, since they (true believers, not just those who profess a belief but have never truly accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior) have the indwelling Holy Spirit, they “can run but they cannot hide forever.” They WILL be convicted of their sin. Sometimes that conviction happens quickly and sometimes they run like Jonah did until God REALLY “gets their attention.” In any event, they come to a point where they are convicted of their sin and repent to God.

Sometimes, events have overtaken them before they reach that point of repentance and “some things cannot be ‘undone.’” The easiest example of this that a truly repentant former Wayward Spouse wishes that the affair had never happened and that the pain of recovery was never needed in the first place. Unfortunately, though the sin is forgiven, the consequences of the sin must still be dealt with, and sometimes “lived with” for the rest of their lives. Let’s say, for example, AIDS or an Other Child to cite but just two “consequences” that can’t be “undone.”

Now, to the issue you addressed, the marriage of two former Wayward Spouses who were, at the original time, in adultery from their “old” marriage partners.

The old marriage ended with divorce, or there would be bigamy to contend with. Therefore, we have to deal with two circumstances.

1. Divorce and remarriage is LEGAL. “Render unto Caesar,” as it were. Our society recognizes all marriages of a man and a woman as being “legal.”

2. Marriage, for believers definitely, and in reality even for unbelievers, is ordained by God. That union results in the “mystery” of one flesh regardless of whether or not one is a believer. It’s simply that unbelievers reject that God instituted marriage or that God’s “rules” concerning marriage and divorce apply to them. But for Christians, they do apply.

So, the marriage of the two former Wayward Spouses IS legal, both by Society’s standard and by God’s decree. Are they living in adultery since their marriage is a result of adultery in their previous marriage? I think the only answer is yes. That is clear, because God clearly stated that a Faithful Spouse can divorce an Unfaithful Spouse and remarry without the Faithful Spouse then committing adultery by remarrying. The clear implication is that ANY other remarriage would result in committing adultery. Therefore, the Unfaithful Spouse does not have the “luxury” of remarrying without, thereby, committing adultery.

But the old marriage is OVER, by the State and by God. IF the former Faithful Spouse has not remarried, then he/she WOULD be “available” to remarry their former spouse if they so chose. But if they had remarried, that “option” would be closed “until death do they part,” meaning until the death of their new spouse.

The former Unfaithful Spouse, who then married either her former Wayward Partner, or anyone else for that matter, IS committing adultery, but is also married to that person. They cannot “toss aside” that marriage, no matter how convicted they become of the sin of adultery, simply because it is “found wanting.” If they could, then we are right back to the condition that the Pharisees had allowed, the putting away of a wife by the mere writ of divorce for any reason that pleased the husband.

That is precisely what Jesus told the Pharisees could NOT be done.

So what are we left with? We are left with two people who have committed adultery and are living in a marriage that is, by definition of God, adultery. But that does NOT allow them to leave the marriage; it requires recognition of the sin and repentance of the sin. Along with the comes the decision to submit to God’s commands and to follow in humble obedience “from that day forward.” God forgives the sin and will NOT force them to commit another sin by divorcing without “just cause.”

There is no way to “balance the scales” of adultery. It is destructive on many levels. Yet is not an “unforgivable sin.” Even IF they were to divorce, there is NO guarantee that the former Faithful spouse would take them back, let alone that they “MUST” take them back.

The “tenor” here should be “go, and sin no more.” There will be continuing consequences, but that is the “just” part of the sin. Just one example would be the likely exclusion from some areas of service, i.e., being a Deacon or and Elder. Children of a “broken home” are also a result of many divorces and sometimes are a “problem” because of the actions of “adults.” I’m sure you could think of other things too.

Regardless, the “question at hand” is should they have to divorce “to set the record straight?” I believe that the answer is no. Otherwise, God’s will concerning marriage would be supplanted by Man’s will, a sense of retribution or a twisting of God’s will concerning ALL marriages.

Remember, the “key” here is Christian or non-Christian marriages and WHO has the authority and who is recognizes AS the authority.



Obviously, from what I just wrote above, I disagree with your conclusion. They ARE married; and God recognizes that marriage. It is a marriage that the husband and wife are committing adultery, by God’s definition, but it is a recognized marriage nonetheless. The command of God is to Repent of the sin and to surrender it, along with their lives, to Christ. Admittedly, it is often difficult for man to deal with God’s forgiveness, because we want “recompense.” But the operative point here, for all of us, is the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. To put it baldly and abrasively (I hope no one is offended), “how dare you, forgiven yourself of an unpayably huge debt, NOT forgive someone else of their sin debt against you when they repent and seek your mercy.”


What I am “getting at” here is that God is Sovereign. God makes the judgments, not Man. We don’t have to “like” it, but God has the right regardless. And God will use anyone He wishes to use, regardless of their past circumstances.


Yes, this the “easy part” for us to agree with about adultery. It is also true, just as the other things are true that have been discussed. God defined marriage, and God defined the requirements for forgiveness of sins.


And that also applies to an adulterous marriage when they repent and surrender to God.


What part of Forgiveness and God’s Sovereign right to use anyone and everyone He chooses to use do you “disagree obviously” with?

Then, if I understand you correctly, Jesus lied when he said, [color:"red"]”I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” [/color] (John 10:28-30, NIV)



We could discuss this at length, but for now let me simply say that this is best looked at as a “hypothetical,” not a “factual” statement. In essence, what the writer of Hebrews is saying is that “if we WERE possible that somehow a true believer could be snatched out of the hand of Christ, it WOULD be impossible for them to be brought back to repentance again because true repentance and acceptance of Christ is a “once and done” thing. Once in Christ’s hand, there is NO CHANCE that someone could lose their salvation. Christ made it clear in the above referenced passage in John that “between the Son and the Father, no power on earth can remove a Christian from the salvation that Christ obtained for them.”



Exactly.


Then are you saying that “one” sin of any type is “intolerable,” or just the particularly offensive sin of adultery? Forgiveness of sin, except for adultery, is “allowed?” Remember, what I am talking about here is a Christian, not an unbeliever, though it would apply equally to an unbeliever who later came to accept Christ.


I assume the 2nd area of agreement is NOT about 2 unbelievers who married/divorced/married/divorced/married, etc., but is an “Unevenly yoked” marriage where the unbelieving spouse choose to leave (abandonment).




I don’t know that I would point to David as an example, other than as an example of God’s forgiveness for sin. Remember, David had more than one wife, but God still used him. Many consequences of the sin still remained, however, even though the sin itself was forgiven, and God did NOT require that David divorce Bathsheba, whom God recognized as David’s wife.




To humans, I understand what you are saying. But is it “to God” that we, as Christians, are to look for guidance, especially in difficult circumstances. “Love thine enemies;” “Do good to them that would despitefully use you;” the “Good Samaritan;” are but a few of the thoughts of God as to how we should respond when impacted by sin.

I think you may be extending what is said a bit too far. MOST affairs will end. They are in large part a “Fantasy.” But none of that negates our duty as Christians to try to help someone who is sincerely seeking help and realizing just how awful adultery is. If one must “hold their nose” to help, I’d say “fine, hold your nose but provide the help anyway, in much the same way that Jesus reached out to the “untouchable” Samaritans.” Even Jesus’ disciples (Jews themselves) were not “thrilled” about Jesus going to, much less speaking with an adulterous Samaritan woman.



I’m not sure I understand this question, but my immediate response would be “death.” We have until then to repent and accept Christ.




Yes, it most certainly does. The gate IS narrow, and that gate is Jesus Christ.




You are correct, God is NEVER pleased with sin. Were it not for the blood of Christ, none of us would “stand a chance.” Your “struggle” is a good one. It is good to “stand” for God and his principles and commands. “Thou shalt not commit adultery” is NOT a suggestion. And if the parties involved are Christians, it is the duty of a fellow Christian to “confront them in love” with their sin in the hope that they will repent.


Though often difficult to “see” while we are going through the trials and tribulations and sins committed by us, or against us, your signature line reference, “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28) IS REAL. It IS “all things.”

God bless.

FH,

I am happy to continue this discussion but not in this thread here.

You have stated a few things as facts here that I do not see as facts. The state may well recognise affair marriages but I do not see that God recognises them. I also do not see how an affair can be continued if it is repented of.

Lastly, here, The scripture you consider me in disagreement with - - I in no way think ANYONE can be snatched out of Jesus's hands, but they sure as he11 can jump out themselves.

bigkahuna - Fair enough. Where would you like to move it? Or perhaps you'd like to start a separate thread?



Okay, you can disagree. Now I guess we need to determine if the Scriptures are going to be the authority, and if so, what Scriptures would support your contention that God does not recognize them.

An affair is NOT continued if adultery is repented of, so are you extending that to say that the marriage must end when the sin is forgiven? I need a little more clarification from you to know what it is that you are trying to say.




Okay, so the individual is stronger than God? The "elect" can be lost? How does one divorce the bridegroom Jesus when marriage is "until death do us part" and eternity never ends? Help me to understand your reasoning here.

Suzet... a M of two affair partners can be legitimate in your eyes?
You must be high! That type of thinking is a cancer to these boards. That is the mindset that allows two idiots to believe that their affair is a romance and that they were meant to be together.
Sure.... I repented after I stole your man... I am now a Christian so God not only forgives my sin but blesses the union. Are you out of your freakin mind? Why don't you and ##### start your own forum... you can call it Excuses and Entitlement.

FH,
thank you. You put into words how I feel as well. I had tried, but I could not form it in the way you did. The scriptures you posted and many of the thoughts were thoughts that came to me yesterday while driving but I could not get them down on paper like you did.

One thing that stands out to me is that we are the Bride of Christ. Is he going to divorce us?

I do find myself putting other things before Him, so in reality I have committed spiritual adultry. He has every right, but instead of divorcing me, I See him plan Aing me every day- drawing me back to Him.

thanks again for writing it down.

MEDC - I think I understand what you are trying to say, but what I "hear" is a ton of emotion driven thoughts.

Would you care to discuss this a bit further, because it is central to the idea of forgiveness in Christ?

moveforward - for anything that may have helped you or your own situtation, I am thankful. The glory of God is never more fully seen in a marriage, imho, than when He uses the terrible events associated with adultery to teach and grow us stronger in our walk with Him. So many things that may have been just "so many nice words or stories" in the Scripture begin to take on a greater depth of meaning as we see them "played out" in OUR lives instead of someone else's life that we have no connection to.


God bless.

My dog woke me up in the middle of the night puking. As a result I couldn't fall back to sleep and somehow ended up on this thread. Read the whole thing and then went to bed feeling kind of like puking myself. Then I woke up with a headache thinking about this thread. Ya think maybe this thread has gotten under my skin? So I'm thinking I need to express my thoughts just to get them out of my hurting head, if I can remember what's been floating around in there overnight.

In the over 2 years on MB I have been a witness to the massive trauma caused by these As. I have witnessed countless BSs laying there bleading, there families in shambles. I have come to see 1st hand what a hero is by witnessing the courage, love, and the fortitude that these BSs put forth to save their Ms. To love their FWSs in spite of what was done to them. I have seen the courage of FWSs face their dark side and work to recover their Ms. To make amends to their BSs and some come here to help others.

So what's my point? MB for me is not only the place that helped me break up H's A, or the place I have learned invaluable marriage building tools, it has also been a support group. If I was in a support group in the real world where people were trying to recover from an A, and JJ was allowed to enter this group, I would have to leave. The group would no longer be a safe place. The group's focus of healing a M from infidelity would lose it's meaning. The sacredness of M would be just words.

Bob's bankrobbing analogy was good but mild to me. Dr. Harley in is workshop compares the trauma to the BS as worse than rape. If you buy this analogy, which I do, having someone like JJ come here for support feels like this to me. I'm in a rape support group. JJ is someone who in her past participated in the raping of 2 other people. However, 10 yrs later she experienced being raped. Now she wants to join the rape support group. It doesn't feel right.

Hopefully this year I'll get my counseling license. This sitch made me ask myself this question. When I'm practicing therapy again what will I do when a JJ comes into my office? The answer came to me very quickly, and it is in our code of ethics. I would refer her to someone who would be able to work with her. My baggage due to this trauma would prevent me from giving her what she needs. If she came to me if the M ended I wouldn't have a problem. It's like some therapists who were sexually molested might never be able to work with a child molester. They'd have to refer.

These are my thoughts now. Maybe they'll change one day. Every time we see a R develop from an A, or an affair M, I believe it undermines all Ms. Every time As are accepted it makes it easier for someone thinking about an A to go forward with one. The opposite of this is that every time I witness an A relationship end it reinforces the statistics that these As the majority of the time don't make it. So as much of a bi*** as this makes me, I honestly don't wish people in A Ms a happy life together. Whenever I hear of a A M breaking up I'm happy about it, not sad. Maybe one day I will be so spiritually evolved that this won't be the case.

Does that mean I wish JJ a life of misery? No! I really don't! Should she be on MB getting help to save her A M? It seems she could stay here and people like me could just stay away. I'd have to because memories of people like Treereick, who fought to save her M, but lost to the OW would just be too strong. I could do that, just stay away. Or maybe JJ could be referred elsewhere. Since infidelity is so huge in our world there's got to be a support site for saving A Ms don't you think? I bet the TOW site might have something just for this.

Well that's my 2 cents. I guess I can now be considered as one of the self-righteous, judgemental people here on MB.

Hey FH... Yes, there is emotion driving those thoughts as well there should be. Disgust at her words and thoughts is the biggest emotion.
This has nothing to do with forgiveness in my mind. I have nothing to forgive Suzet or other WS for... I am just displaying my angst at their comments. Any person that marries their affair partner and expects forgiveness or acceptance is ridiculous in my mind. They have not repented and turned from their sin... in fact they live in an adulterous relationship and deserved to called to the carpet for that behavior.
I hope you are well. We have not crossed paths here recently. My time here is very limited at this point since I find the rats have begun to take control of the ship.
MEDC

I had never heard the words 'affair marriage' until the last few days on this forum.

My husband and I have been married since I was 18 1/2 and he was 19 1/2.
We have been married for 32 years so this discussion is not about us.

I know I can't even begin to understand the pain a betrayed spouse feels as is shown in the previous posts.

However, do I think Justjilly is a lady that deserves to be treated respectfully and helped here on MB by caring members? ABSOLUTELY!

I had mentioned my sister has been married for 30 years and it was an affair marriage.
(Her OM was not married but she was married with 3 children.)

Several have said she should divorce her husband of 30 years and go back to her first husband in order to show repentance.

Hmmmm....her first husband is re-married and has been for about as long.

What you don't know is that during the entire 10 years she was married to him, twice a year, he would go on a business trip 1100 miles away and stop and see his former girlfriend and she would perform oral sex on him.

My sister found this out before her own affair.
When her husband discovered HER affair he beat her unmercifully. (As far as I know, that was a one time thing., if there were other times, she never shared this with me.)

She lived a life of verbal abuse from this 280 lb, 6'4" man.
She was so shy and scared and weighed hardly 100 lbs.
She had very low self esteem during her marriage.
(Still no excuse for an affair.)

She knows an affair was sinful and her second marriage started off on the wrong foot. (She only knew her first husband 3 months when she married him, that was her FIRST mistake.)

Yet 30 years later, she is happy with this soft spoken Georgia man. I feel God HAS blessed their marriage.
My sister has been at a healthy weight(150 lbs) for years
and she is a confident 60 yr old woman.

Should she have stayed in the first marriage with the abusive cheating husband? (Maybe it could have been salvaged, I don't know, possibly with marriage counseling.)

Her mistake was having an affair...she should have divorced her husband before getting involved with someone else.

And the wonderful thing in all of this is the four of them are actually friends and neighbors and live within a two mile radious of one another.

When there are family get togethers they all share the same table and get along!

An example of Christian forgiveness.

But like on Pep's thread, that didn't happen over night,
it took YEARS to get to this place of forgiveness and friendship.

Your post weaves a good story... but you are missing the point. No, she should not have stayed with the man that beat her and cheated on her... that is a no brainer and you put the question in there for effect only.. knowing full well that no one would agree that should happen. However, your sister did not have to marry her A partner either. She could have chosen to be alone until after the divorce. It is a somewhat different situation because he was not married... but how would you feel if OM was married and your sisters activity led to the break up of a family... still think God would bless that union.
See, your sister had grounds to leave her M... she was cheated on... but it is a rare case where the people involved in A BOTH have a right to leave a M (like your sister did). More often than not it is just some self entitled H or W out there screwing around to have their base needs met. But always remember... your sister could have left and NOT had an A in the first place. She could have chosen the moral path both with her A and then choosing to marry the man that she committed adultery with. She chose to deal with her problems by dropping her panties.

This was, to me, was the most surprizing opinion on this thread (the rest were largely expected)

I would have thought Believer might have realized how many current MBers probably face dealing with an affair marriage in the future ... and how controversial and horribly painful this issue is .... for THEM !

I don't think it warrents "shame" .... but I am surprized nontheless.

Pep

IWRA, I'm not someone who believes in marriage at all costs. Sounds like your sister was in an abusive M in which her H was cheating on her during a LTA. I still think it is always healthier when a person leaves their M officially through a D before getting involved with another. Wonder if your sister got involved with this man and he was Med, like in JJ's sitch? Would that be OK since she was in such a crappy M?

I confronted our OW before she officially left my H's business. Plopped myself right in front her and told her I wanted her to see the person who she caused so much pain to. At one point I said, "I really feel sorry for your H."
Her reply, "You don't know how hard it was for me in my M!" I replied, "Oh, so you decided it was OK to get into our M." If she were to have ended up with my H and he cheated on her would everyone here then run to her giving her great advice on how to save her M? Still doesn't feel right to me.

Most of the As I have seen on MB are not like your sister's. Many As even occur in good Ms. One affair author states that most people who have As are the Ss who gave the least in the M. I have no doubt that God loves JJ as much as anyone else here on this earth. I just know that at this point in my recovery I wouldn't have the adequate empathy to even want to help her. I've seen too much and witnessed too much pain to have empathy towards someone who was the OP who Med the FWS.

The only empathy I can muster is for their children. That is the only reason I could ever really care if her M works out. It might also help to know that she feels real remorse towards the BSs who were involved. Did she make amends with either of them before she found herself a BS? What has she learned?

If she comes back here I'll stay away. I'll let those of you who have the empathy and the motivation to help her save her M help her.

Never and excuse to have an affair, end of sentence, period.

If you do not want to be married, GO AND GET A DIVORCE!!!
Don't go line up the next person so that you can THEN GO AND GET A DIVORCE.

If you do this expect your BS to be hurt, destroyed, grieve, get peeved, angry and seek to share the pain with you. It's that simple. GO AND GET A DIVORCE FIRST!

Of all the people on the board, believer is the one that I would have expected to take this stand.

I can actually imagine that if her xH's OW showed up on her doorstep...lamenting about the problems she was having with believer's xH, she would tutor her in the MB way.

This isn't to denounce believer, it's just a statement of her character. I think that she has moved so far beyond the breakup of her marriage that it doesn't define how she reacts to a person in crisis...even if it's the OW in her situation.

Now, this isn't to say that others have not moved on...it is just how I see believer to be.

I am the person that would have posted about "assumption of risk".

Assumption of risk is knowing that a danger exists (adultery being committed in a marriage) and voluntarily accepting risk by exposing oneself to it (marrying an adultery committing man). Assumption of the risk is explicitly assumed.

She has actually given consent in advance of his committing adultery ON her...because she gave consent when he committed adultery WITH her.

I don't know what type of recourse..compensation..or help she could be asking for...so I didn't bother to respond.

Again, this is just my opinion about believer...and since it is not derogatory..I feel ok with posting it without directing the comments to her.

committed

LO, you repeatedly advise others to simply use the "IGNORE" button ....

Do you mean similar to when one knows about someone in their life that is cheating on their spouse, but do nothing … but moreover tell yourself its none of your business and remain silent <equivalent to an “Ignore” button in RL>?

I wonder if this type of avoidance behavior contributes to the widespread deteriation of marriage.

I wonder if more people spoke up and expressed their disdain for adultery (confrontation, exposure, etc.) if it would make a difference.

I wonder how many people would hesitate in participating in an affair if they knew a friend, acquaintance or even a stranger would feel comfortable in openly expressing their contempt for such an act, instead of "ignoring" it.

I wonder if acceptance and support of affair-based marriages in an e-community like this contributes to making affairs more prevalent in our world.

And because of that acceptance, I wonder in angst if the next generation of membership dominating this site will come from affair-based marriages.

Don't be "confused"...

Based on this revelation about the unwritten rule the Wonderings have indeed committed a dirty act.

Thanks Just Learning- for injecting a sensible comment at just the right moment.