Bob, when I was talking about abuse in a M and how it can Biblically be grounds for divorce, I was not only referring to JJ’s 1st M but about abuse in M’s IN GENERAL. I know JJ’s sitch is different and that abuse was probably only a small part of her decision to divorce her H. Obviously her infidelity had played the biggest role here, but I wanted to make clear how her H’s abuse could have contributed to all this and that he was also responsible for the problems in their M.

Again, I don’t agree that a M which starts out as an A can’t become legitimate. In the eyes of God it CAN (as I’ve explained in my previous posts of yesterday and today). However, it’s not to say that such a M will not have serious consequences and will have much baggage…of course it will...that's why very few M's which start out as A's survive, but it's not to say that it's not possible... Through God EVERYTHING is possible and infidels can (as all other sinners) receive His love, forgiveness and grace if they repent and turn to Him...

Bob, IMO abuse don’t have to PROVEN. I’m sure there is serious mental/emotional/verbal abuse going on in many M’s where it will be very difficult or impossible to PROVE the abuse (especially if there is no ‘evidence’ of abuse on the outside physically). Sometimes only the victim of the abuse will know if the abuse is of such a nature (or have such an impact) that it truly and seriously threaten the emotional/mental health and well-being & self worth of such a person...even though it won’t or can't necessarily be medically proven… Most 'scars' and damage are on the inside…where no one can see or knows of it's 'impact' except God and the victim. Only God truly knows the heart and suffering of a person.

God Bless Bob...

No one says YOU have to...

As far as JJ is concerned, you believe she should end her current marriage...is that about right?

Then this is your advice to her...offer it without malice or vitriol. If you can't do that, then I think you should hit "ignore" and move on.

Bob, you can't say that JJ is unrepentant of her past sins and wrong actions. No one knows except God and herself...

Not even if she is repentant and 'washed cleaned' by the blood of Jesus? Like I've said previously, I'm glad my God is a loving and forgiving God who shows GRACE and MERCY to those who turn to Him and that my (and others) 'eternal salvation' is not dependant on some posters on these boards...

That was a good article, 2B, about Total Forgiveness; Mercy and Grace.

As I have been reading all the posts this morning, I see there is such a diversity on this subject of 'forgiveness'.

I think people's attitude about forgiving happens
long before their spouse has an affair.

You are either brought up to have a forgiving spirit by the example of your parents or you are not. (My parents in their 60 years of marriage, NEVER held a grudge against anyone; they set a wonderful example for us kids.)

Some people have to really make a difficult effort to forgive (even friends that slightly wrong them) For some of us, it is much easier to forgive. (Maybe we just don't want that extra BURDEN of carrying unforgiveness in our hearts.)

I am sure all of the readers here at MB see this all the time in different threads regarding forgiving former wayward spouses.

Some can forgive and some can't.

P.S. JustJilly should be back home tomorrow from her vacation with her husband and children and hopefully she will post on this thread.

Suzet

She is living with the man she stole from his wife.

A manifestation of unrepentance IMO.

How convenient is the repentance of the burglar who doesn't have to retrun his stolen goods.

LO

I offered JJ one post free from malice or vitriol.

A question - you say we should help all kids of marriges. How about if JJ wasn't married, just cohabiting with her H. would you offer MB support ?

What if they were not divorced from their spouses but cohabiting. Would you then ?

If not WHY not, as you advocate supporting gay and even intra species marriages here. Do you draw no line ?

bob,


bob....I don't see anyone here really telling you that you're wrong....in fact, I think most folks really understand what you're saying. This place is made up of primarily BSs....so we've all earned our stripes and empathize with you. But the above statement is a big part of the quandary. We're trying to argue the "legitimacy" of something and there are two meanings to that word. We do have laws...and lawfully jj is married....the courts and laws recognize her marriage. There is no punishment for jj and her husband <under the laws here on earth> for being married.

But that's not the end of it....because there is another kind of "legitimacy" (and more besides that too)....and that's the moral question....is this a "holy" marriage? Arguing morality is really difficult because there's so much diversity in the world...and on this board. In spite of that....I honestly think very few people here would "affirm" or "sanction" this marriage (recognize it's "holiness") from a moral postion, and even those who do, don't sanction the way it began, and recognize the disastrous odds they face. I don't think there's any danger at all....that folks here are going to start normalizing affair marriages....or becoming desensitized to the tragedy of them....even if they help these people to STOP this insanity.

Even if we don't "sanction" the marriage....are we capable of helping them? That's the other question. Does support=sanction? I think some are capable, and some aren't.....and it's going to have to be up to each individual to decide. I know that they wouldn't be turned away by the Harleys....and I don't think that's because he turns the other way about how they married. He recognizes perhaps the devastation that allowing the cycle to continue creates. But it's going to be impossible to decide what "we" (as a collective group) ought to do....because "we" is made up of individuals with different moral standards in different stages of recovery. Everyone will have to decide that for themselves.

However, if somebody can't/won't help....will it be okay to chase these folks from the board by dragging them through the mud everytime they show up? I don't know....that's going to be up to the mods and adminstrators. I know that there is no wording about this site that says marriages that began as affairs are not welcome here.....and if they aren't....maybe there should be. There are rules about respecting everyone who comes though.

I don't think anyone who has been a betrayed spouse can look at this situation without thinking....this was predictable....but the cycle of infidelity needs to stop somewhere too doesn't it? If this situation isn't stabilized (and that's different from normalized) then the husband/wife/children of this union, will remain at risk to create more havoc in more marriages and that doesn't help anybody.

Personally.....I don't think it's necessary for me to sanction this marriage in order to see the benefit of helping these people. Support comes in many forms. Support does NOT equal "sanction" or the belief that the marriage is "holy". I can support REAL accountability....and that's not sanctioning affair dynamics. I can certainly say.....I don't agree with "how" your marriage began and it's going to be doubly hard for you to sustain a marriage that began that way. Here are some things that might help you reach a place where you can be a healthy person with a healthy marriage...... If this marriage breaks up....and these folks have learned NOTHING....then I've missed the opportunity to save the next marriages that have the potential to be destroyed by folks who just don't get it.

I might never be able to help them make their marriage "holy" (I will leave that up to the clergy and God), but I may be able to offer advice on how to make themselves and their marriage "healthy" and stable so that the risk of infidelity goes down.

As many folks have already posted.....the only workable solution I can see, is for each individual to decide if they can or want to help(and help does not mean you sanction the way the marriage started). And if you can't help because it insults your morality, disgusts you, you're too early in recovery, or it triggers painful feelings....do your best to stay away.

Bob, if you imply by saying this that she will only show true repentance if she divorce her current H and return to her previous H or never marry again, I strongly disagree with you... If you read this post of yesterday again you will see why (I don’t want to repeat everything I’ve said there again).

We can agree to disagree on this.

There is no punishment for jj and her husband <under the laws here on earth> for being married.

This is a good point I overlooked. Thanks.

I truly prosper when I'm away from this place lately. I should take my own advice.

bob, you seem to be confusing "support" with "condonation". They are very different.

It's very possible to help someone who is involved in an affair with a goat...if you're willing to acknowledge that they are confused and broken and deserve simple human compassion.

Once you're at that point, different people may offer different advice...you would likely advise one to end the goat affair...as most here, including myself, might.

But this can be done compassionately and sincerely.

In JJ's case, I happen to believe she should learn the hard lessons of her past to make the best of her CURRENT marriage. So my advice will help her think about achieving that goal...yours may very well be different.

The very fact that you're willing to help someone doesn't mean you have to agree with what they are doing.

There are, in fact, several examples of people on this board recently that fit the categories you've drawn up. And, yes, if I can offer them something to help them with there situation, I will. If not, "ignore" and go on.

If individual posters feel averse to dealing with JJ, that's OK. No-one has to post on this thread, and a simple post saying 'I hate what you've done and I think you deserve what you've got." is more than enough to make the case clear.

It's not our responsibility to punish JJ, or to encourage others to punish her. We're not a lynch mob. Are we?

For a perpetrator to expect help from a victim community that she has to some extent helped to create, is cruel/naive/optimistic/insensitive...or just desperate. I think JJ sees herself as a victim like us, and has not yet reached the stage of growth where she realises how much damage she's done to others, nor how much her 'victimhood' is a direct result of her original 'crime'.

That's infuriating. She does have some waking up to do. But frankly, so did I. JJ married a man who was demonstrably a poor risk for marriage. So did I. I just didn't have the emotional tools to work out that he was too selfish and immature to handle a family and committments. It's just possible that JJ was not sufficiently wised-up to see that a man who would run out on one wife might well run out on another. I am willing to cut JJ just a little slack on that.

She needs to learn what was wrong with the marriage she created. She needs to learn how to respect herself and others. She needs to learn what values to inculcate in her children. She needs to learn about the pain she and her H have caused others. She needs to learn what a healthy marriage should look like.

If she's open to that, there's a chance that her kids will not be the next generation of WSs.

Is that worth trying to achieve? Or is it more virtuous to cast stones?

TA

brownhair - yes.

ForeverHers, (IF POSSIBLE PLEASE RESPOND ON PEPPERBAND'S THREAD "TA - HELPING THOSE THAT HELP OTHERS" ...IT'S THE SAME SUBJECT)

I have some more questions...If you don't mind ). My questions are not perfect because this IS a new issue for me in my journey. I may lay them out several ways to hopefully hit my concerns directly. I'd love to see Mortarman in this discussion too, if he is so inclined.

Just as I said I hoped JJ would find a way out of this for her. I am not battling with anyone to find a way to pin her in. I have not judged her, nor condemned her. I have not even spoken/posted to her. On the contrary, I am seeking the way out for someone in her position within my beliefs...for my own peace of mind and possibly for the next JJ that appears on this board or in my real life.


When does a "legal" affair marriage become recognized by God?

Is there a difference between a legal marriage and a God given or Godly marriage?

Is there a concept of a "sinful" marriage?

Are we as Christian's called to respect the sanctity of such marriages (two Christians, both Wayward) despite our misgivings about it's creation?

Once a WS marry's the OP, should we be advising the BS's herein to respect the marriage and/or pray for the marriage (if the marriage itself is not sinful, are the occupants in it still sinful in THAT marriage)(love the sinner, hate the sin...but is it STILL sin)? If not, at what point should they be so advised? It must be a BS struggle for years in situations like JJ's....even her husband's XW is supposedly good friends of theirs but I suspect it's a situation of "keep your friends close and your enemies closer"...if not in JJ's sitch, perhaps in others. At some point after repentence, if the marriage becomes or is somehow legitimate, they would likely be sinful themselves to harbor ill-will for such then Godly marriage, yet we see it all the time...they do. To express, secretly or otherwise, celebration of such marriages demise is itself, sinful or could it be just retribution or consequences that either way the left behind BS should not take comfort in???

As Christians, do we have to help?

As far as repentence, is that an individual borne thing/idea that the repentent one is to come to in prayer? Exactly what would constitute repentence, in your opinion, for a situation like JJ's?

I am currently thinking, perhaps "legal" divorce may be an unnecessary step in repentence, in the process of "Sinning no more", so to speak, could a period of abstinence and rebirth of the relationship (even using MB principles and pastoral guidance) followed by a recommended legal renewal of vows (of course after forgiveness and amends are sought from the former BS's) be a good idea as a form of repentence??? (I say this not as advice to JJ but more along the lines of something I might consider in her shoes)

In YOUR opinion, is a secular message board, given the vast array of varying religious, non-religious, and in between beliefs, opinions and views, a smart place for someone like JJ (assuming she is a Christian) to seek advice, council, support and/or direction for such a troublesome, perhaps narrow, difficult and arduos predicament?

Please note FH...I never said she couldn't or shouldn't post here, nor that others couldn't or shouldn't post to her...I merely agreed with her wisdom to leave as expressed by her exit posts. I think her reading this thread will be unhealthy for her and can't believe anyone would want to drag her back to this thread. It's like they want to drag her back in to say how much I/we have hurt her when I have not even addressed her. Now, I feel as though if she does come back I can hardly abstain and as you can plainly see I am struggling here with what I do believe, I could hardly support, advise or 2x4 her when I am this uncertain myself.

I am so sorry...my questions are out of hand.

Mr. Wondering

Mr.W, I know I am not FH nor do I have his biblical knowledge BUT IMHO what I quoted above is the conclusion I came to after some discussions with others and some hard thinking on my part. I think it is very hard to strike a balance as this IS a marriage building site and some marriages have been built on the back of the pain for the BS. However to me once full repentence, making ammends and seeking forgiveness of those you harmed has been done then I BELIEVE God can/will bless the union. IMO, the former infidels MUST drop the mindset of the wayward. Some never do. Sadly I think JJ and her WH never fully got there and she is hurting quite badly because of it. It is very sad but I can't help feeling MORE sad for the the XW, the children of the former M and the children of the current M. They are the victims of these two perpetrators.

Dear ff,


Link to Pepperband's thread

Excellent posts Mr. W, my love, and Faithful Follower...

This situation has, no doubt, left many here reeling this week...Mr. W and I have discussed it and discussed it to exhaustive lengths...No doubt it has caused a deeper delving into our faith...

I have been helped too by reading Pepperband's post to Together Alone...Thank you for that Pep, it is a perspective that I truly needed...

Thank you too to Forever Hers and others who are trying to provide clarity here...

Mrs. W

MR. W:


I think that we here on MB mostly encourage BS who have not been able to save their marriages, to forgive their WS, even if they are not repentant. We do this not because they want it, ask for it, or even believe that they need it, but because we, in order to experience self recovery, need to forgive them.

This is not my situation, my FWH and I are steadily recovering, however slowly, we are moving forward. Had it not worked out that way, I think that I would have had to work very hard at forgiveness and it would have taken me very, very long to be able to accept his R with OW whether or not it ever led to marriage. Maybe, after it no longer hurt, maybe after I got my own life together and moved on, I might have been able to genuinely wish them well.


I have to agree with this. I don't have any warm feelings for OP's or even for WS's. It was hard enough for me to forgive my own FWH. But.....I still understand that JJ does hurt, probably as much as any of us who have been betrayed do. I do believe that what comes around, goes around sooner or later and because of her own actions long long ago and sorta, kinda, feel like she got what she gave. But I still feel sorry for her. Maybe that is a sign that I am reaching a new point in my own recovery.

Who

I don't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My forgiveness is conditional upon the WSs seeking it with humility and giving me back my retirement savings. Oh, and taking the dog, too. Maybe then.


I didn't need to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But I understand that others may have this "need."

Who - I see you're in DC. I'm in Arlington. Doing the red line pole dance.

WAT

I don't have the answer ...

but I do leave room at the table for the answer ... should it show up!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Pep

I don't have much to add, but I do think this is a fascinating question that deserves a serious discussion - "Should MB posters attempt to help marriages that started as affairs?"

I don't know.

If both parties are truly repentant, and have done all they can to make amends to those they wounded so deeply, then I guess the answer is "maybe".

It seems to me that marrying your affair partner is its own punishment. Not much anyone here can do about that.

Mulan

I've made it to page 6 in this ever-growing thread.

MAzingrace, thank you. That was one of the finest Biblical posts I have ever seen. I would like to see more from you.

FH, thank you for your posts as well. They are compassionate and thoughtful (something that I don't always associate with you, perhaps as much because of my own biases as anything else). They were good to read.