Ora pro-in all fairness, marriages often struggle despite the dispositions of the parties involved.

Also, you may have missed this but romantic love is defintiely not unconditional. The conditions for romantic love are addressed by Dr. Harley (he refers to them as "needs") and similarly situated experts: We have to behave a certain way and treat our significant other a certain way in order for our love to survive...




Well, thanks...

By the way-I am still hiding nothing. I have invited the curious and the self righteous to ask questions repeatedly ...this invitation is usually followed by silence or disbelief at the answers. I think that your next comment unlocks the mystery of the responses I have received from these folks.



I believe that JustJilly was flayed alive because some of these folks are still too focused on their own pain to view certain situations with compassion, clarity, and fairmindedness. What I mean to say is this: JustJilly was attacked by betrayed spouses who perhaps (albeit involuntarily) saw JustJilly as a perfect outlet to vent their anger at their spouse's affair partner. It's simple transference-The same dynamic can be ssen when a man kicks his dog because he had a bad day at work.

The other side of this is: A marriage that began as an affair is basically an affront to every married person's sensibilities-whether they are a betrayed spouse or not.

How can anyone be expected to be truly supportive when they are presented with something so troubling? I suppose the best thing to do if you felt you would begin spitting venom at JustJully would be to remain silent because this board is supposed to be all about the "support and understanding"...

I am sure I will be attacked now...but I had to speak up.

Well, CS, I do agree that we should show the same respect for these anonymous people seeking help in exactly the same way we would counsel an acquaintance or friend that was sitting beside us in real life.

If that person needs kind words or a kick in the pants, it can most definitely be done respectfully.

I did not see that post from an ora_pro_nobis and cannot find that name in search???

I don't mean to sound disrespectful but there is something about your posts that reminds me of a man that used to post here on MB, that changed his ID name often and was somewhat controversial. (Can't remember the name, maybe others will.)
I am not saying you are that person, your posts just remind me of his posts.

P.S. C.S. I am editing this and deleting this last question. I am sorry for asking it. It was unnecessary and out of line and I apologize. Since you copied it in YOUR post, it is not completely deleted though. I did check and found the ora post on page 8. Hmmm, kinda strange, just one post from this person? Could she/he be you posting with a different ID?
JUST ASKING, not accusing.

medc
were you married when your gf had your child? Nobody that posts here has ever sinned?
I havent ever seen where it says only first marriages welcome here.Im just glad none of you
posting here are God.

Oh Spectacles, how nice that you have joined in this discussion. Now we have a predatory OW weighing in. I say we should just contact the TOW site and ask if they'd like to somehow partner up with MB. I mean we're all so open-minded! A marriage is a marriage right? Why bother trying to help people break up these As and save the first M anyway? I say let's just help the WS and the OP learn good MB skills so there new M will be a great success! You're absolutely right Spectacles. Tell all your OW friends to just bypass TOW and come right on in here for some darn good advice. Oh by the way, have you told the man you're "just living with" about the MM you are using MB skills to have a great R with yet? Just curious? Hope everything you've learned here is helping you out!

i can only hope, no matter how many years have passed, that if my H and OW marry....and he cheats ON her as he did WITH her......and she comes here to ask for help saving "her" marriage

the wise people here tell her that what comes around goes around so she got what she deserved....

and then they move on and use thier time and energy to help someone who HAS NOT stolen a spouse from someone else

because i believe that NO marriage that is built on the pain of others and comes about after destroying so many lives is deserving of the caring, compassion, and wise advice that is given on this site

how would YOU feel if JJ were the person who had an affair with your spouse, caused your D, and then married your H or W? would you want people here to help her save her marraige when she didn't care that she destroyed yours?

What a useless post. Go back and try again.

L.

MEDC - this really is the issue, isn't it?

Repentance of sin is what we are all called to do. We are talking about a couple of different things here, however, not whether or not a marriage exists, because it does.

What we are talking about on the one hand is repentance that leads to salvation, and on the other hand repentance of realized sin in one's life.

Let's be frank and honest for a minute, okay? THE primary issue is one's "standing before God," not whether or not the marriage is adulterous. ALL sin needs to be "called to account" as a sin against God, first and foremost. Repentance of a sin (adultery or any other sin) does NOT mean that it should be replaced with another sin. That is the idea behind the biblical admonition to "be angry (righteous anger), but in your anger do not also sin."

Some things cannot be "undone" once they are done. They can be forgiven, but not expunged. That is one of the problems I personally have, for example, with the Roman Catholic idea of annulment of a marriage. There is NO "undoing" of what has been created (a marriage) because God clearly gives only ONE reason for believers to divorce a fellow believer. Outside of two believers, there is the Pauline directive to "let the unbeliever go." That does NOT negate the fact that they, too, were married.

Let's face it, the clear directive of God concerning marriage is that a believer should NOT marry an unbeliever to begin with. So in one respect, we put our own desires ahead of God's clear direction, and sometimes we "suffer the consequences" of that disobedience.

Regardless, marriages of all types (between men and women) are recognized as marriages by God. They may not be marriages between two believers, but they are marriages nonetheless.

To deny forgiveness to someone who is brought to a saving faith or to a believer who later "hears" the Holy Spirit and is convicted of their sin and then repents, is contrary to Jesus' command to Peter, and to all of us.

God bless.

His / her post is defintiely on this thread. Perhaps you only searched half heartedly.




Probably because ((drum roll)) my posts are controversial-LOL

And, you don't sound disrespectful per se...you sound paranoid.

I hope that I don't sound disresespectful when I say this: The groupthink mentality here makes a good discussion of Harley's concepts challenging to say the least. (Add the "God" element to any thread, and the whole damned thing goes to h#ll in a handbasket.)Bottom line-With some folks here it's: those who think as we do versus those who do not .

In the study of group dynamics it has been demostrated that people allow for what they perceive as variation (within certain boundaries) for those within their "in-group" but they view those not in the "in-group" as being "all the same." Therefore it is not surprising that my posts remind you of someone else who disagreed with you.



Oh please ask away...but the way you framed this question demonstrates your world view: You are asking whether I am the BLACK one or the WHITE one . And, depending upon my answer, you (and the other groupthinkers, co-signers, and banwagoneers) will "confirm" the accuracy of your opinion of my words: [color:"blue"] Lulabelle, I tole you that there is somefin' wrawng wif her! [/color]

To answer your question, my husband and are different ETHNICITIES. I have stated this before. It is possible to be within the same racial category, but to hail from different cultures .

Spectacles... not that it is germain to this discussion, I will entertain your question. I would have been married to GF when child was born had she not threatened and led me to believe that she had an abortion. See, the problem with the wacky laws is that a woman can kill a man's child without so much as an okay from him.
I NEVER said anything about FIRST marriages(in fact most here know I was married and divorced in my early 20's so your post makes no sense at all!)...so obviously you have a problem reading and understanding the English language. Perhaps I should speak in a language you are more familiar with... OW fog speak perhaps???

Yo Cinn - would you be so kind as to identify who's in the group and who's not?

Thanks,
WAT

Oh,

Hi there spectacles..why am I not suprised to see your investment in paving this road?

I was reading through the reponses of this post and I agree with you . They are legally married. She divorced her first spouse and married. Manny 2nd marriages result because the first marriage was a poor choice. I think you need to give this woman a break.

What does Harley think? I think that this would be a good discussion for the head of marriagebuilders to entertain.

2 wrongs don't make a right. The argument is that she made a poorer (new word???) choice by having an A to escape her first poor choice.

I agree that she "deserves" a chance to atone, to grow from her mistakes, and to get help past this crisis in her life... but one question that people are discussing is whether this is the right place for her to receive that help. Some here are prepared to help her... but at what cost to the forum and other members?

Shaden

Not at all surprising written by an OW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Even better - how about if JustJilly's WH and his new OP come here asking for help on how to make their relationship last?

Should we help them?

Think JustJilly would be okay reading THOSE posts?

As I said on Pepperband's thread: If someone comes here because their affair marriage has been hit by infidelity, I think they should be told something like the following:

"Sure, use MB principles. Use Plan A for a while and then go to a really dark Plan B (no doubt, you'll need it.)

"But we would be doing you a vast disservice by giving you false hope that you can recover this marriage. Why? Because you KNEW this person was a liar and a cheater when you married them. They'd ALREADY cheated with YOU.

"The standard advice here, when someone comes in saying they're engaged to a person that they suspect is cheating, is GET OUT. But you chose to marry a known cheater anyway and now you've got one h*ll of a case of buyer's remorse.

"There's nothing we can do to help you with that.

"Best advice? You cannot make a marriage with a known and unrepentant cheater, and YOU KNEW GOING INTO THE MARRIAGE that that's what you were marrying.

"Sorry to say "We told you so" - but yeah, we told you so. Now you're getting a big dose of your own medicine. Now you know what the BH/BW of your affair partner was going through.

"In Short? Cut your losses. Divorce this known and unrepentant cheater and in due time start over with someone who is AVAILABLE and NOT a cheater. That way, you can live a stable and respected life in a home you truly deserve, instead of gaining your own house by burning down someone else's and then wondering why the scorched timbers keep falling down around you."

JMHO
Mulan

Shaden, I love the way you think things through and have conversations with yourself in solving dilemmas. LOL

I feel I made a big mistake to start this thread when JustJilly was leaving for vacation as she cannot reply back to these posts. She doesn't even know about this thread and Pep's thread. (She left with her husband and children on a 5 day vacation on the 26th.)

Something that has been repeated over and over is ONCE A CHEATER ALWAYS A CHEATER and she should have known when she married him that he would cheat again.

How does this make betrayed spouse's feel (that by the grace of God, have forgiven their former wayward spouses) to hear this?

I do NOT believe this is a true statement.

I believe most FWS LEARN THEIR LESSON and the hurt their selfishness caused and that they would never go down that muddy road again. JMHO (Of course, there are exceptions to this and some will cheat again.)

IWRA


I believe most FWS LEARN THEIR LESSON and the hurt their selfishness caused and that they would never go down that muddy road again. JMHO (Of course, there are exceptions to this and some will cheat again.)

I believe that an FWS is one that repents of their affair and returns to rebuild their marriage. JJ oes not meet this definition as she clearly did not repent of her affair as she stayed 'married' to her OP and abandoned her BS.

Can you tell me your different definition of a FWS please ?

I don't believe that once a cheater always a cheater, however, you are trying to equate a FORMER wayward spouse with WAYWARD SPOUSE. There is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE.

If my spouse REPENTS and turns away from his affair, then that means he should be forgiven. But that is clearly not the case in JJ's marriage. Her H has NEVER repented and has NEVER turned away from his affair so there is no comparison.

OF COURSE she should have expected him to cheat, she knows he does not believe in fidelity. Our FWS's here DO believe in fidelity or they would not have STOPPED their behavior. Hers is not a FWS so you can not make any such logical comparison.

Mel and Bob, you have some good questions and good points.

To answer your question, Bob, I thought a FORMER WS meant, that they had repented and asked forgiveness from God, from their spouse and the spouse of the OP.

And that even if they divorced and re-married, that they would NEVER CHEAT AGAIN in order to remain a Former WS.

I know the 'think' here is that if someone marries a person they had an affair with, that they can never be forgiven, even if they have children together, because they are with that person so their 'adultery' continues. That the only way to repent is to get a divorce. (That is not my thinking but some believe that.)

By the way, I sure do NOT have the answers, it is a very difficult dilemma.

Anyway, that is just what I have always thought about FWS when I encounter people that have rescued their marriage due to infidelity or are divorced and re-marry.
(I only know of three that were 'affair' marriages.)
2 are relatives and one couple go to my church and have been married for 40 years.

flat out incorrect

that is NOT "the think"

Pep