Pep, you need to quote my entire paragraph, that was just a part of it.
I gave the reasons why some think that.

"I know the 'think' here is that if someone marries a person they had an affair with, that they can never be forgiven, even if they have children together, because they are with that person so their 'adultery' continues. That the only way to repent is to get a divorce. (That is not my thinking but some believe that.)"

instead of painting with such broad strokes

try a finer point

Can a WS realize they are wrong... but the consequences of "atonement" are worse than staying in the A marriage. I don't think this is the situation with JJ... atleast not yet, as she apparently left upset at the viewpoints. But when a whole new set of people can be hurt by "going back"... and everyone has gotten used to the new arrangement... what do you do then?

This question isn't so much asking about repentance before God... although one can say that what is right is always right... regardless of the outcome... but what would JJ or someone in her situation be expected to do? (note... not a sarcastic question, but really not sure what the answer is here).

Shaden

Why is having children together weighed-in when discussing forgiveness?

I know the 'think' here is that if someone marries a person they had an affair with, that they can never be forgiven, even if they have children together, because they are with that person so their 'adultery' continues. That the only way to repent is to get a divorce. (That is not my thinking but some believe that.)

IWRA its not that dramatic IMO.

An unrepented affair like an affair marriage is built with broken parts. The fact that cheaters are married to each other displays that they did not learn how to stay in a marriage that they have contributed to breaking.

Their proven coping mechanism for marital challenge is cheating. They have not fought the noble hard yards that true "F" WS have to confront their behaviour and the consequences of it.

As it is I read a LOT of very wise help go to JJ. i.e." your marriage is built from damaged parts, you need other than MB to repair it". The stats I quoted her are real. Affair marriages just don;t make it because the spouses don't have the opportunity to learn different marital behaviours.

So that is my response to the practical component of this dilemma - I do not believe MB can help an affair marrige. the parts need to be fixed before the machine can be fixed.

The harder personal moral dilemma is "Do I try to rescue the marriage that smashed the hearts of two BS's in the past just like me and which were never repented".

I will admit I could not help, even if I were able to. I would feel I was adding to the betrayal of their former BS'.

Had Squid gone on to marry OM then he cheated on her would I be happy her getting help for THAT "marriage" here ? Heck no.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

yezzzzzzzzzzzzzz

IWRA, I haven't seen anyone say that they can "never be forgiven." I don't know that the only way to REPENT is to get a divorce, that is the difficult question that is not so clear - it is certainly not a prevailing opinion.

But what we ARE CLEAR ON about here is that there has been no such attempt to repent at all because they do not seem to even understand the gravity of the situation. JJ's husband has demonstrated that he does not believe in fidelity and that is simply a fact that cannot be overlooked. She married him knowing this, so it's not like she is a victim. Perhaps she was deluded in her expectations, but that does not change this fact.

He cannot be compared to our FWS' here who DO believe in fidelity and who HAVE repented. [turned AWAY from their affairs] That is a very INSULTING UNFAIR COMPARISON to any true FWS who has changed his ways.

But it sounds more dramatic that way, Pep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This below was my quote, not just that partial quote that was taken out of context (stopped it at a comma of the paragraph.) Bob used the entire quote in his reply.

"I know the 'think' here is that if someone marries a person they had an affair with, that they can never be forgiven, even if they have children together, because they are with that person so their 'adultery' continues. That the only way to repent is to get a divorce. (That is not my thinking but some believe that.)"

This question below from Shaden is key to this entire thread. I do NOT have the answer, it is a very difficult question. Thoughts on this are welcome.

SHADEN: "Can a WS realize they are wrong... but the consequences of "atonement" are worse than staying in the A marriage? I don't think this is the situation with JJ... at least not yet, as she apparently left upset at the viewpoints. But when a whole new set of people can be hurt by "going back"... and everyone has gotten used to the new arrangement... what do you do then?

This question isn't so much asking about repentance before God... although one can say that what is right is always right... regardless of the outcome... but what would JJ or someone in her situation be expected to do? (note... not a sarcastic question, but really not sure what the answer is here).

Shaden"

THIS QUESTION:
"but what would JJ or someone in her situation be expected to do?"

That's my take on it, too.

My position is not so much, "Don't help someone in an affair marriage because of the harm they've done," even though I DO personally hold little if any sympathy for anyone who marries a cheater and then is cheated on themselves.

My position is far more, "MB principles cannot help someone who has CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED that they do not believe in fidelity, and it will not help the WS-Now-BS for us to tell them that it can."

IMO, this situation is the same as when someone comes here looking for help with infidelity but then goes on to reveal that there are also severe alchohol or other addiction problems going on in the relationship.

In those cases, the person WILL be told that sure, they can use MB principles if they want, but those principles are not designed for and do not work in cases where addiction and/or physical violence are also involved.

IMO, marrying a known cheater is in the same category. It is a far more serious problem than MB principles can solve. This is not a temporary aberration of character; it IS that person's character.

You can't have a marriage to someone who just doesn't see any reason to be faithful. So, unless we're going to start supporting Open Marriages here, THAT'S why I don't think we should be trying to help these cases.

Again, just my .02.
Mulan

IWRA, I read your entire quote and fully understood it, so did Pep, so did Bob. It was a broad brush used for dramatic purposes that does nothing to help your case.

Agree that the discussion SHOULD BE about discussing possible solutions instead of dramatizing the "think" of others. I think THAT approach will get you much farther. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

IWRA...

I'll give a start with an answer to my own question...

(still continuing in talking to myself)

I would expect that the first step is the "correct", open-minded attitude and a questioning of their life and decisions made... not just defensiveness and more justifications. Admission to the mistakes made.

After that... I'm still lost. Maybe I'll be back later after I've spent more time in discussion with myself.

Shaden

I have to go make some french toast for my sons... I'll have to find the old CinnSugar thread to re-read the great recipes.

Shaden

Okay, I'll give you my answer: JJ - or any other person who married their affair partner and is now shocked because because they are now being cheated on - should cut their losses and realize that they cannot make a marriage with someone who clearly does NOT believe in fidelity.

If someone here knows how you CAN be married to such a person, I'm listening. MB principles will not help with that and the last time I looked, this site did not support Open Marriage.

In short:

1) Sure, try a short Plan A. What have you got to lose? That way, you can say you tried.

2) Go to a pitch-dark Plan B.

3) While in Plan B, get a legal separation to protect your assets.

4) Prepare to go to Plan D. Unless this WS undergoes a complete personality transplant, or you enjoy living the "Lifestyles of the Frantic and Betrayed", you're going to need it.

5) After the divorce, take a break for a while, and then carefully take your time finding someone who is single, available and honest.

You asked, so there it is.
Mulan

French Toast - Nummers!

Laughing here, Shaden.

However, you ARE having a good discussion with yourself.

Guess, I will go outside and do the same.(think & talk to myself)

Mel, I think that paragraph IS important to this thread as that way of thinking has been posted over and over.

However, to come up with an answer to Shaden's question is much more important and beneficial.

And Mulan, I just read your post and your opinion is what you believe.

P.S. A good sugar/cinnamon ratio for cinnamon toast is
to mix together 4 TBL sugar and 1 TBL cinnamon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

2 and a half reasons, I think

#1 it's more of an emotional arguement when children are involved

#2 there is a practical consideration once kids are on board

and #2 1/2 .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .... it distracts discussion away from the immoral nature of the affair-marriage

Pep

IWRA

we give Shaden lots of space to "think"... he's Canadian .... eh?

Pep

QUOTE: "Why is having children together weighed-in when discussing forgiveness?"

Or why this marriage should be saved if possible,
through this man's humble and honest repentance?

Because he is their daddy.

P.S. Pep, I didn't know Shaden was from our country to the North! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What does that have to do with this man's repentance? Or lack thereof?